Garvin's ability was FAQ'ed to explicitly clarify that you may spend a focus token to change zero eyeballs.

It used to be that way. The latest FAQ uses a different wording:

When attacking, players may spend focus tokens or target locks and elect not to modify any attack dice. When defending, players may spend focus tokens and elect not modify any defense dice and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.

The phrase " may ... elect not to modify any attack dice " does not mean that you modify zero dice. It means you do not modify in the first place.

Edit:

Not sure if that changes the ruling. Only pointing out that the FAQ changed.

That is a different issue. This ruling would be relevant if someone wanted Keyan to remove stress and NOT change eyeballs to hits. That ruling is very interesting, because it is actually contrary to the Core Rulebook in the case of spending focus tokens. The rulebook requires that if you spend your focus token, you change ALL of your eyeballs to hits. The FAQ (which supercedes) states that you don't have to change all of the eyeballs.

In any event, for my previous post, the pertinent section of the FAQ is on page 7 directly next to Garven:

So, there has been no change to the FAQ regarding spending a focus token when zero eyeballs are present.

The rulebook requires that if you spend your focus token, you change ALL of your eyeballs to hits. The FAQ (which supercedes) states that you don't have to change all of the eyeballs.

Minor detail: The FAQ allows you to spend the token and not modify any eyeballs. You have to modify all or none. You are not allowed to modify only some eyeballs.

The rulebook requires that if you spend your focus token, you change ALL of your eyeballs to hits. The FAQ (which supercedes) states that you don't have to change all of the eyeballs.

Minor detail: The FAQ allows you to spend the token and not modify any eyeballs. You have to modify all or none. You are not allowed to modify only some eyeballs.

Good catch.

Here is a hypermobile version of Keyan that should be safer to run than using Opportunist.

Wedge + R2 + PtL (33)

Keyan + AdS + Engine + PtL (39)

Biggs + Hull (28)

You have two very heavy hitters that are very versatile. And your opponent won't be able to shoot at them on the initial pass. It requires very little synergy late game, unlike the Wes / Keyan combo which can fall apart. Keyan doesn't get +1 dice from Opportunist, but evade tokens cancel Opportunist, and Wes can't remove an evade token.

But something important to realize here is that generic B-wings are popular, the named pilots are virtually nonexistent (once each in 140 winners according to the store championships results thread) in competitive play. So yes, it's entirely reasonable to give the B-wing a boost, as long as it's in the form of viable unique pilots and not upgrades to the generic ones.

I guess I don't necessarily agree with this logic, nor the consequences that will result to correct the problem. I don't think increasing the viability of the most popular ship is needed in any form and certainly doesn't make things more interesting.

The main reason I play Imperials more often is because of the overabundance of rebel lists (made up mostly of two B-Wings) and I prefer variety of tactics and ship representation. While I have faith in FFG, it doesn't look like this issue will change at any point in the near future. Imperial Aces certainly didn't do this (and I love the kit) meanwhile the almost immediately release of new X-Wing pilots and impending Rebel Aces doesn't do much to change that in the near future.

Frankly, I think ubiquitous nature of regular Bwings over named is the point efficiency of Blues and Daggers when paired with eithe FCS or Sensors, not because the elite pilots are terrible.

On the other hand Fel can always clear his stress as long as he picks a green maneuver (not much of a sacrifice on an interceptor dial), while Farlander is screwed if he misses his target and can't shoot.

Ironically, I've used the interceptor "green" argument as a point for them in the new stress environment, so I agree that it's less of an issue with interceptors than many people make it out to be.

That said, we clearly disagree on the difference here. As was pointed out, Farlander isn't completely "screwed" as he still has access to white maneuvers which aren't and can clear his stress if he can work out a shot next turn with the bonus (which would have been his objective anyway). So, he doesn't actually need to clear his stress in the same way an interceptor might, since it will need an evade or focus (or both) to survive and/or be as effective on offense.

BTW, when you compare the green on an interceptor dial and the B-Wing dial you get almost the exact same moves, and you have the benefit of three 1-maneuvers that are green on the B-Wing. So, when both end the turn stressed, they actually have very comparable choices.

But remember that a B-wing's dial is already fairly limited. It's great at knife fighting in a small area, but that's it. The ability to use non-green maneuvers the turn after taking a stress token is mostly used up trying to make up for the interceptor's awesome greens and boost + barrel roll options.

While I agree, this difference clearly isn't enough to make the Interceptor more competitive than a B-Wing (or many other ships for that matter). Besides, part of my point is that a B-Wing shouldn't be able to "make up" the difference in maneuver and that's part of my problem with Farlander's design. You wouldn't expect any rules to put an interceptor or tie on par with a B-Wing in terms of consistent reliability

I appreciate the discussion, but I think we just see things very differently in terms of philosophy here and we'll have to see just how frequently Farlander appears in lists when he's released to see just how cost effective his ability his. My hunch is you'll see him a lot more than the 1.16% of points that Soontir Fel accounted for in the recent winning store championship lists (5 times). If his ability is comparable or worse in terms of cost efficiency than Fel's, we'll see him used a similar amount.

Ooohh push the limit time.

I appreciate the discussion, but I think we just see things very differently in terms of philosophy here and we'll have to see just how frequently Farlander appears in lists when he's released to see just how cost effective his ability his. My hunch is you'll see him a lot more than the 1.16% of points that Soontir Fel accounted for in the recent winning store championship lists (5 times). If his ability is comparable or worse in terms of cost efficiency than Fel's, we'll see him used a similar amount.

We had a couple of last minute reports with Soontir Fel in it, so his usage actually made it up to 7 times and 1.46%. 41.58% of points were spent on named pilots, and there are 35 legal named pilots, so the "average" would be 1.188%. So Soontir Fel gets used above average even though his ship gets used very little. I agree that Keyan should end up being used more than Soontir, just based on the fact that the B-wing is a better ship for its cost than the Interceptor.

If we keep the same distribution of points spent on ships, and simply shift 10% of the B-wing points to Keyan, then he would end up being the #5 most used pilot. It's very possible this will happen in the Regionals edit: in the post-wave 4 / Rebel Aces meta. You can still make a 4 ship squad with him:

Keyan + AdS + PtL (35)

Blue Squadron B-wing x2 (44)

Rookie X-wing x1 (21)

I don't know that this is better than Biggs Walks the Dogs, but it still looks competitive. I'm sure there are other ways to use Keyan in a 4 ship squad that are more effective. Edit: by the time he's legal Wave 4 will be out, and A-wings will be more cost effective, so there will be many options for 4-6 ship builds using Keyan.

I appreciate the discussion, but I think we just see things very differently in terms of philosophy here and we'll have to see just how frequently Farlander appears in lists when he's released to see just how cost effective his ability his. My hunch is you'll see him a lot more than the 1.16% of points that Soontir Fel accounted for in the recent winning store championship lists (5 times). If his ability is comparable or worse in terms of cost efficiency than Fel's, we'll see him used a similar amount.

We had a couple of last minute reports with Soontir Fel in it, so his usage actually made it up to 7 times and 1.46%. 41.58% of points were spent on named pilots, and there are 35 legal named pilots, so the "average" would be 1.188%. So Soontir Fel gets used above average even though his ship gets used very little. I agree that Keyan should end up being used more than Soontir, just based on the fact that the B-wing is a better ship for its cost than the Interceptor.

If we keep the same distribution of points spent on ships, and simply shift 10% of the B-wing points to Keyan, then he would end up being the #5 most used pilot. It's very possible this will happen in the Regionals. You can still make a 4 ship squad with him:

Keyan + AdS + PtL (35)

Blue Squadron B-wing x2 (44)

Rookie X-wing x1 (21)

I don't know that this is better than Biggs Walks the Dogs, but it still looks competitive. I'm sure there are other ways to use Keyan in a 4 ship squad that are more effective. Edit: by the time he's legal Wave 4 will be out, and A-wings will be more cost effective, so there will be many options for 4-6 ship builds using Keyan.

Thanks for the thoughts and comments.

Good to know that Soontir got a bit more play than initially appeared, and I've thought he's a decent choice for an Imperial list but not a auto-include, and I'll be interested to see if we are correct that Keyan will be much more widely used, and I agree that it's because the B-Wing is a good ship, but his ability is astounding. I think a Blue or Dagger (as mentioned above) is simply better than either of the two current pilots since Adv Sensors and FCS are better than their abilities, despite the pilot skill hit. That's not the case with Keyan. Sadly, people may also throw away their Ibby cards once he's out as there's zero use for her (competitively or not).

I just noticed a stupid mistake... he won't be used for Regionals since he isn't coming out until Rebel Aces. Duh. Edited post, same idea though -- when he is available, he should be used.

Edit: Also, I think we basically agree: Soontir's ability is essentially a free focus action, and so is Keyan's. Keyan's might be slightly better because you don't end the round stressed. So if a "free" focus is worth enough to make Soontir see above average use in a craft that only accounts for 4% of the points spent, I can't possibly see Keyan getting used less, when the B-wing accounts for 19% of points. I would be surprised if he doesn't end up in the top 10 most used pilots, and that's after considering all the new pilots in wave 4 + Aces.

I've made a similar comment before, but I think it's worth repeating here.

Keyan's ability only operates if he has a stress token while attacking. There are several ways to get a token, of which his dial is the least reliable. He works very well in combination with Advanced Sensors and either PTL or Opportunist, but that's a minimum of 35 points. Adding HLC or Adv Proton Torpedoes is even more expensive, bringing your minimum (Advanced Sensors + PTL + Adv Proton Torpedoes) to 41 points, and if you also want an Engine Upgrade, that'll get you to 45 points. The HLC Opportunist build Duraham is discussing costs 43 points.

It's not that 43-45 points is too much to spend on a single ship; most Falcon builds spend more than that, if not by all that much. But there's never been incentive to spend that much on a ship that's no more durable than a 22-point Blue Squadron Pilot, and there's never been incentive to spend that much on a ship that only fires at PS7.

A few hard counters to Keyan suggest themselves immediately, and some of them have come up earlier in the thread: ion cannons and turrets, Flechette Torpedoes, R3-A2, Proton Bombs, etc. And then there are soft counters: swarms, high-PS ordnance (Range 3 Cluster Missiles from Rhymer+Predator? Adv Proton Torpedoes from PTL+R2 Wedge?), multiple HLCs (3x Blue+HLC has a 61% chance to kill Keyan on the first round of attacks), etc.

And yes, I've played against some time-travelers just like Duraham has. I've played with Keyan and against him, and he's good--as good as Wedge--but can be insanely costly to outfit. So I think it's true that he can do a lot of damage early with a "full" loadout, but he has to do that in order to be balanced: he has to kill between one-third and half of his opponent's list before flaming out in order to earn back your investment in him.

I've said it before, I think FFG is trying to push the meta towards more expensive ships.

Agreed. Although god knows why. They can make buckets more money selling 8 TIE LNs to each consumer... But I agree with that move. Nobody ever dreamed of being a PS1 Academy Pilot - many dreamed if being Luke or Wedge, however.

imba overpowered POS, my community has this time traveller who likes to play with future stuff, and Keyan is literally kicking all our asses and has an undefeated streak. Gets even worse when paired with Wes and Opportunist

Yeah, they should have at least made it just be one result changed, not all of them. the ability should be a consolation prize, not a perfect replacement for Focusing. For instance, if Soontir Fel kiograns, you get your focus (which could keep you alive, but isn't usually as good as one solid Evade).

Agreed. Although god knows why. They can make buckets more money selling 8 TIE LNs to each consumer... But I agree with that move. Nobody ever dreamed of being a PS1 Academy Pilot - many dreamed if being Luke or Wedge, however.

May not be the case, since your upgrade cards are tied to specific ships, and you will need to get those ships if you want to use them.

take the case of Wedge R2 PTL EngineUpgrade. that's Xwing / Ywing / Awing / Falcon just to make 1 ship

the ability should be a consolation prize, not a perfect replacement for Focusing.

It isn't a perfect replacement for focusing because it doesn't work on defense. You're going to be kind of disappointed when you "focus" an attack with zero eyeballs to clear your stress token and then roll an eyeball on defense.

They can make buckets more money selling 8 TIE LNs to each consumer

...

Nobody ever dreamed of being a PS1 Academy Pilot - many dreamed if being Luke or Wedge, however.

The second part explains the first. FFG might make money selling eight TIEs to one player, but they lose money if other players come in dreaming of getting to fly all the awesome Star Wars characters they love, encounter a metagame full of TIE swarms and generic XXBB lists, and decide not to buy any more stuff because the game isn't fun for them.

doesnt matter much if you cant spend your "focus" for defense, since you only have 1 agi anyway

doesnt matter much if you cant spend your "focus" for defense, since you only have 1 agi anyway

Of course it does. I don't know about your dice, but my dice still have eyes on them even when I only roll them one at a time. And when you remember that a shield upgrade costs four points for a single HP the value of turning even an occasional eye into an extra HP becomes pretty clear. Obviously with a B-wing you probably aren't going to refrain from focusing your attack in the hope that you'll get to use it on defense, but the fact that Farlander's ability provides nothing (besides stress removal) if you don't roll any eyes on offense is not a trivial drawback.

the fact that Farlander's ability provides nothing (besides stress removal) if you don't roll any eyes on offense is not a trivial drawback.

Providing "nothing besides stress removal" is a DRAWBACK? Wait... Let me take a deep breath and read that again.

"...not a trivial drawback".

Yeah, still there. Now we're into the "WTF are you smoking" part of this discussion.

If a pilot MERELY had the ability to remove a stress token after an attack, it would be a rather impressive ability. Combining that with a free focus on the attack is a downright god-like.

This is the point where it becomes blatantly obvious that you've lost all perspective, if you ever actually had any.

Providing "nothing besides stress removal" is a DRAWBACK?

Yes, when you're deliberately putting stress tokens on Farlander so that you can spend them as "focus" tokens. Farlander's ability encourages you to take stress even when you don't need it. For example, even though a 2-turn would get you where you need to be you make a 1-turn to gain a stress token. Removing that stress token without modifying any dice is pointless because you only had it in the first place because you wanted to modify dice.

Now, obviously clearing stress is valuable if you needed to take that stress anyway, even without the dice modification, but let's not pretend that Farlander's "focus" is as good as a real focus token. Being useless on defense is a very real drawback compared to, say, Fel's ability to turn stress into a real focus token.

Yeah, still there. Now we're into the "WTF are you smoking" part of this discussion.

Too bad you seem to have skipped over the "paying attention to context" part of this discussion. The context here is comparing Farlander to Fel: Fel gets a true focus token but has to start the next turn stressed, Farlander starts the next turn stress-free but can only use his bonus "focus" on offense. This makes Fel's bonus focus clearly more valuable than Farlander's. That makes the question (at least in terms of which pilot ability is better) whether or not Farlander's ability to start the next turn stress-free makes up for getting a weaker bonus "focus".

This is the point where it becomes blatantly obvious that you've lost all perspective, if you ever actually had any.

This is the point where you've lost all perspective. Seriously, it's a 30+ (or 45+ for some of the proposed setups!) point B-wing that dies just as fast as any other B-wing. Is his ability good? Yes. Will he see competitive play? Hopefully. Is the sky falling? No.

Keyan's ability goes through both Dark Curse and Carnor, making it actually better than a normal focus token

Keyan's ability goes through both Dark Curse and Carnor, making it actually better than a normal focus token

Only if those two specific pilots are common in a given metagame.

That makes the question (at least in terms of which pilot ability is better) whether or not Farlander's ability to start the next turn stress-free makes up for getting a weaker bonus "focus".

There's no question (at least for me). I'd trade Soontir's ability for Keyan's one in a heartbeat.

It is an extra offensive action, it removes a penalty, It can't be removed (Wes.J), nor blocked (C.Jax), It goes through dice defenses (D.Curse)...

In my eyes, Keyan's is now the best ability in the game. Period.

And from a strictly lore perspective, I have a serious gripe regarding Maarek Stele And Keyan's Farlander. Both are the iconic heroes of the X-wing vs TIE Fighter series of games. As the incarnation of the player, both should be the equivalent of each other in heroism, power, feats and skills. However, I feel that this has not been properly reflected in this game. Maarek has been given a pretty lackluster ship, with poor customization, and a pretty limited ability... While Keyan has been given a powerful ship, filled with customization options, and a borderline overpowered ability.

It is just not fair.

ITT: Situational focuses are bad. Somebody should tell Marksmanship.

ITT: Situational focuses are bad. Somebody should tell Marksmanship.

Dear Marksmanship: outside of a very few specific situations (gunner, cluster missiles, etc) you suck and should never be used.

Maarek has been given a pretty lackluster ship, with poor customization, and a pretty limited ability... While Keyan has been given a powerful ship, filled with customization options, and a borderline overpowered ability.

It is just not fair.

I agree. It's disappointing that FFG wasted Maarek on the TIE advanced, especially since the ship seems to have been entirely designed around Vader, with the other cards included just so that nobody complains about only getting one pilot in the box. I wonder if this was a conscious choice that the best ship for him was the TIE advanced, or if it was the result of FFG not knowing if the game would sell well enough to fund the future expansions that he should have been included in. Hindsight 20/20 he should have been saved for the TIE defender and been given abilities on Farlander's level.

There are plenty of ships and upgrades that aren't particularly good in a vacuum, but end up being played anyways. Maybe Marksmanship does suck 'outside of a very few specific situations,' but how long has HSF been a thing? It may just be one list, but when that list is ubiquitous it proves to be the rule, not the exception. I think the imperial shuttle is a terrible ship - especially without upgrades - but look how far that's gotten.

Honestly, I see this sort of thing all the time on the Magic forums. A card gets spoiled, and endless debate ensues about how good it is. The truth is that we don't know what the future meta is going to look like, or what ships will have a role to play in it. The wisest thing anyone can do is watch and wait before passing judgment.