I just don't see it. He's spendy, Wedge spendy. But I feel like his ability is a lackluster, less useful version of Wedge's.

Wes cancels an evade, focus or TL after he shoots but does nothing while he shoots. Wedge shoots really gosh dang hard which usually forces people to use evade and/or focus.

Wedge punishes ships that don't have focus or evade, and Wes does nothing against them other than shoot like a 21 point rookie (albeit before a rookie).

The only thing Wes does that Wedge can't is remove a TL which, while cool, is situational at best. At 29 points each, I want the versatile pilot, rather than the guy who is just the set up for a one-two punch.

So what am I missing?

Wes shoots early, which sets the rest of your squad up for success. Either the ship you removed a lock/token from won't be able to use it offensively against your other ships, or it won't be able to use it defensively when it gets shot at. Look at it this way: Wedge removes a single, defensive die; Wes removes a modification that can potentially be used on a number of dice, offensively or defensively. Where Wedge is a power unto himself, Wes is an amazing team player. You just have to think a few steps ahead.

Also, Opportunist says hello.

I really fail to see the problem you have with him. Certainly he's lackluster when you consider him as a one on one pilot, but focusing fire is a pretty normal and recommended strategy in this game anyway. The only times that his ability isn't useful are:

-He removes Focus and/or Evade tokens because his attack is just so good that it doesn't also negate them due to his ability

-The enemy has fired first and spent their Target Lock and Focus tokens already

-The enemy has no actions due to collision

-The enemy uses non-standard actions (Deadeye, Predator, R5-D8, etc.) that don't give tokens

-They used motion based actions (Barrel Roll, Boost)

So there are points when Wes is somewhat ineffectual, but that goes for every other pilot in the game. Personally I think he's going to be awesome.

First off, TL's are gaining popularity, stripping them before they can be used, especially from bombers in Epic is going to be "A Good Thing"®. And he is, after all, shipped with the transport, as one of the escorts.

But in regular play, let's set up a Wes Wing.

I can't wait to use him with Veteran Instincts in combination with Wedge (possibly with Predator) and Keyan Farlander with Opportunist. That just seems fun.

OPPORTUNIST ON EVERYONE ELSE!!! marksmanship if you are poor.

also, tell Soontir he needs more tokens. And empty out Kyle's stash too

good combo with sensor jammer too

actually, what happens if Wes shoots Garven?

actually, what happens if Wes shoots Garven?

I would think the token would just be removed, as Garven isn't technically spending it.

I can't wait to use him with Veteran Instincts in combination with Wedge (possibly with Predator) and Keyan Farlander with Opportunist. That just seems fun.

Wes, Wedge and Etahn, strip 'em naked and then ram it up their exhaust pipes.

But, garven's gonna spend the focus defending against Wes, and have no token to discard after the attack

True. A smart player will use Garven's ability whether it would be effective or not, in order to transfer it to someone else instead of losing it after the attack. Although in this case Wes still has the advantage by forcing Garven to spend his focus instead of possibly saving it for his own attack, or to defend from someone else.

All I'm saying is, in my experience, Wedge removes an evade and/or focus (often both) as well due to the punishing effect of his ability. So he often sets up lower PS ships for success in EXACTLY the same way Wes does.

At the end of either pilot's attack, the targeted ship is usually in the same position (tokenless) and the rest of the squadron capitalizes. The only difference is, Wedge hurts ships that aren't prepared for his attack and Wes does not. The ONLY thing Wes does that Wedge can't do is remove a TL. Admittedly, they are more common now with targeting computers available, but I would rather have a PS 9 pilot than a TL removing pilot. I see PS 8/9 pilots more often than I see targeting computers.

I agree that Wes does his thang at range 3 better than Wedge does his, but I don't like planning for range 3. It's usually useful once, maybe twice a game.

All I'm saying is, in my experience, Wedge removes an evade and/or focus (often both) as well due to the punishing effect of his ability. So he often sets up lower PS ships for success in EXACTLY the same way Wes does.

In your experience they have 'EXACTLY' the same effect. Okay, I'll bite. Just how much experience do you have with Wes?

Here's the thing. You're comparing very narrow, specific scenarios (your experience) to a broader strategic concept. If you want to make specific comparisons, focus on the abilities themselves, not something you have experience with versus something you don't.

Wedge removes a single, defensive die. That's his ability. Your opponent gets to choose whether or not he spends a token in response, not you. He may opt to keep it in the hopes of scoring more hits during his own attack. Taking that kind of decision away from your opponent is actually a very big deal, but Wedge doesn't do that. Wes does.

Wes effectively removes the ability to modify dice. Dice , not die. As the math-wingers will be quick to point out, dice modifications generally weigh more than a single extra die does. On top of that, Wes is guaranteed to take away both defensive and offensive options from your opponent. You cannot assume that Wedge will always force your opponent into a similar position.

---

Here's a scenario that will hopefully lend you some empathy:

Pick a generic ship and pretend like you're about to be shot at by Wedge. Does that affect which action you choose? It will to some small degree, but there's really no wrong answer here. Now, pretend like you're about to be shot at by Wes. Do you choose an action that you know will just be revoked by Wes' ability anyway? I would hope not. If you want a better idea of what it's like to play (or play against) Wes, I'd actually suggest looking at Dark Curse or Carnor Jax. Both of those pilots do an excellent job of limiting or trivializing your opponent's actions, which is more akin to what Wes does. They just do it proactively instead of reactively (and there's much to be said about being reactive in X-Wing). As scary as it is to face down Wedge, it's downright frustrating to fly against those imperial pilots. Wes will be much the same.

Wedge needs to hit. Wes could roll all blanks and still strip tokens, keeping a focus for defense to himself.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that Wes is better than Wedge. He is still the king. Wes gives you one more good pilot, that will find a place in some lists. Just because new stuff comes out....it does not mean it is meant to replace the old.

If I could take Wedge twice and have him shoot at the same target both times I would. Wes allows me to do similar within the constraints of the "• unique" rule.

Also with them so similar who do you prioritise first? Wedge (the sniper) or Wes (the playmaker)

They both have the ability to setup the pilot who shoots after them. Under the conditions that the target still exists or they were in the situation to "make the play" (remove a token).

Take both if you can. Otherwise look at your squadron and see if it needs a playmaker or sniper to be the most efficient.

If I could take Wedge twice and have him shoot at the same target both times I would. Wes allows me to do similar within the constraints of the "• unique" rule. Also with them so similar who do you prioritise first? Wedge (the sniper) or Wes (the playmaker) They both have the ability to setup the pilot who shoots after them. Under the conditions that the target still exists or they were in the situation to "make the play" (remove a token). Take both if you can. Otherwise look at your squadron and see if it needs a playmaker or sniper to be the most efficient.

It's late, I'm loopy, and the only thing I can think of is "There is only one Wedge, and Biggs is his wingman" - Qu Rahn . Hopefully someone will catch the reference.

I just don't see it. He's spendy, Wedge spendy. But I feel like his ability is a lackluster, less useful version of Wedge's.

Wes cancels an evade, focus or TL after he shoots but does nothing while he shoots. Wedge shoots really gosh dang hard which usually forces people to use evade and/or focus.

Wedge punishes ships that don't have focus or evade, and Wes does nothing against them other than shoot like a 21 point rookie (albeit before a rookie).

The only thing Wes does that Wedge can't is remove a TL which, while cool, is situational at best. At 29 points each, I want the versatile pilot, rather than the guy who is just the set up for a one-two punch.

So what am I missing?

He's terrible, never play him. Way overrated and cost too much.....................Can have him?

Wes Janson synergizes very well with the upgrades sensor jammer and opportunist being on his teamates.

Wedge disinclines ships from spending focus as they have less dice to roll an eyeball, and likely wouldn't spend it if they saw ibitsam's HLC+opportunist on the board looking at him.

If you don't see the value of Wes, you will learn very soon why he is to be respected. Opportunist is going to be a popular card.

Sekac,

First I can't believe we are having this discussion. Is Wes a better option than wedge. NO. Is Wes a viable option absolutely. This is why.

Wedge shoots has a bad roll or his target has smoking hot dice. NO TOKEN IS SPENT. The rest of your squad shoots and the first ship to do so has a harder shot because of the token still with wedge's target.

Wes with VI, cause honestly why not, shoots a bucket o' token pilot like Soontier with PTL, focus, focus, evade, with a good roll your opponent will spend or have to spend two of those tokens to get out of your attack, Wes's ability kicks in and takes the third. How awesome do you feel when wedge now shoots Soontier with his pants down?

How awesome is it to stop your opponents assault missile from going off because you took his target lock? I'm thinking about future meta on this one and I'm looking at one Z95 pilot in particular.

How about stopping thos pesky blaster turrets from shooting with a token?

How about hit point heavy ships like B-wings that don't rely on evad dice but rely on their ability to hit hard. How many times has a Dagger survived your attacks because of hit points and comeback to shoot you with a target lock and a focus and cripple your x-wing?

Think about how hard it is going to be to shoot down that tie defender and think about how nice it will be when your support ships shoot it and it has no tokens.

Wes also does something in tournament play not even being on your list. The Wes threat will make players take upgrades like marksmanship, outmaneuver, and predator, because these are token less actions. He stops ptl from being the most used upgrade in the game.

In the current meta think about all of the lists that rely on tokens. Think about all the reasons to save tokens. Think about players who know how to use target locks to set up shots in the next round. Wes is the beginning of the end of the current swarm heavy meta, He, is the end of hit point heavy lists, AND HE IS WELCOME.

Time to get back to wave two mechanics and learn to fly people. Revolutionary war tactics are done.

I'm not going to make the Opportunist argument, because the math just isn't there. At three points you can equip PtL, allowing you to focus and TL, which is better than just another dice.

The argument I will make is removing a token off certain ships is HUGE! The Tie Fighters and Interceptors need their evade tokens to survive. Bombers are incapable of delivering ordnance with out a TL. Run a practice game with a proxy. You'll see how much Wes really effects the game.

I'm not going to make the Opportunist argument, because the math just isn't there. At three points you can equip PtL, allowing you to focus and TL, which is better than just another dice.

Edited: for making an incorrect statement

Wes fires first, guaranteeing a 5 dice attack with focus from ibby at any range, denying an additional green at range 3, ibby gets at least 1 die reroll. Use Jan w/squad leader to get the TL and the 6th die.

This thing makes imperial ships weep and can one shot x-wings. It will be a popular combo, I think. Especially in 3 ship rebel high PS builds that absolutely must drop a ship in the first pass. Not to mention that this makes the new hotness, upgraded ceptors, very nervous.

Wes is a key component to this combo.

Stone37, read my post. Also if you target lock or focus with your action and get to use opportunist. Come on. You ain't happy with a the three hit average and the occasional four hit dusting of most ships. Wedge is still going to shine with ptl but other ships....... Well they can use the extra dice.

Put it this way OP: I play Soontir Fel a lot. I will hate Wes Janson. And so will every other squint player in existence.

I'm not going to make the Opportunist argument, because the math just isn't there. At three points you can equip PtL, allowing you to focus and TL, which is better than just another dice.

The argument I will make is removing a token off certain ships is HUGE! The Tie Fighters and Interceptors need their evade tokens to survive. Bombers are incapable of delivering ordnance with out a TL. Run a practice game with a proxy. You'll see how much Wes really effects the game.

The math is there although in fractions. Opportunist gives a slight edge off of TL+ Focus. the down side to Opportunist is the opportunity to use it is going to be less often.

these are the numbers of an X-Wing firing at a Tie Fighter at range 2

with TL + Focus the expected damage is 1.05 if the defender focuses

TL + Focus the expected damage is 1.79 if the defender does not focus

Opportunist only works if the defender has no focus and the expected damage is 2.01

PTL can be shut off with a blocking strategy. Most tie swarms will perform this function in games. Opportunist does not need an action to work. Lets look at those numbers

No action on the x-wing focus on the defender expected damage is 0.32

no action on the x-wing no focus of on the tie expected damage is 0.72

Opportunist with no focus against a tie is 1.14

But as i said with trying to convince someone Wes is good, Opportunist is bad, awful and a waste of points............Can I have yours?