OK started GM'ing DW on Wednesday with character generation and the first two thirds of Final Saction and finished it last night.

so far we have two Assault Marines (Space Wolf & Dark Angel), A Ultramarine Tactical and a Imp Fist Techmarine.

we have a fifth player who missed the first sessions, he's asking what we need to round out the team, He'd like to try a Librarian, but is a bit iffy as a first character, what do we need? I'm thinking an Apothecary. as we had characters carrying Crits in to the final battle, buy the end of that we had one character KO'ed and the Techmarine had lost an arm. But most of their damage came from getting bogged down with Hoards, something that wouldn't have happened if they had a Devastator in the team in the first place.

What do folks think I should recommend?

I wouldn't say Apothecaries are absolutely critical to a Killteam, but they come close...

Well the Gear the Techmarine has bean given appears to need a Techmarine, every time he goes fully-auto his Gun Jams, same every 2nd or 3rd time for burst fire, he lost power to his Armor twice (due to battle damage). we are of the opinion that he's bean given a bunch of dud gear because TPTB's think it needs a Techmarine to keep it in service, he's also a fire magnet.

full rules are not in effect yet, some stuff like Armor marks and history will be worked in as we get a hang of the rules.

Apothecaries are not critical for KT from a GM's perspective. However, and the Core Rulebook should have addressed that, DW is a completely different game with or without one. Without an Apo, a KT is bound to get attrited over the course of a mission. A GM has to carefully manage that. Which means that the GM normally can't field very dangerous enemies before the boss fight. With an Apo, the GM can. It makes for a different mission design.In the first case, the player challenge is not getting too many wounds early on, in the latter case the GM must go hard at them repeatedly during a mission or the players will become bored.

Tell the player that he should choose whatever he likes. A KT of any composition can work. (Though Librarians-only might be OP.)

Alex

A Devastator would provide the team with some long range and heavy fire support potential with their specialities in Heavy Bolters and other weapons so yes would help against the hoards.

Librarians, with a variety of powers can either become utter destruction incarnate or splendid support characters with an array of divination powers or the potential to homebrew some new ones. Could always make up or adapt some biomancy stuff from BC to provide psychic healing. Some nasty potent blast/spray powers and later their ability to dish out insane amounts of damage when their Psy Rating hits high enough, in my opinion would be the preference. Librarians can be tricky to play as there are a lot more rules with manifesting powers but the potential damage or supportive output, plus the amusing situations when their powers go wrong and you get warp phenomenon/perils

Apothecaries, well they just help keep the group alive. Healing in DW is just broken so one of those on side can stitch the group up and keep them fighting for a lot longer. Good for players as they can relax a bit and good for you as a GM meaning you can hurl even bigger stuff!

But yes, it's up to the player what they think they can manage.

Our kill team would be dead a hundred times over without our apothecary. Our GM runs him as an npc unless someone opts to play one of their own.

If your player doesn't wish to play one and opts for a Librarian, point him towards an Ultramarine, They at least can pick up a psychic power that allows him to heal people.

In some ways I think Apoth is less necessary than just someone trained in Medicae carrying a narthecium . That's usually an Apoth, but it doesn't have to be. Your Techmarine could be trained and have a Narthe; especially if you lack an Apoth I'd be willing to allow someone to Elite Advance Medicae (for double the regular cost probably) just to have that option on the table.

The sweetest part about Apoths is the +1d5 wounds healed special ability which, when combined with a high Intelligence, Narthecium, and Master Chirurgeon basically means an Apoth can heal a Marine from light crits back up to full wounds in one test.

So Apoths do heavily skew game balance both ways. I've run games with PC Apoths and one with an NPC, and every time they pretty much are the foundation of the KT - the PCs will take greater risks when they think healing is more likely.

Without one, you need to be careful of how hard the fights really are, because the only option to heal is with Fate (which can make things Easy Mode in its own right, honestly, depending on session pacing).

With one, you almost have to go more overboard because of how quick and easy healing is - so much so that I house-ruled it to take much longer than a Full-Round Action because it was impossible to keep damage on players between fights (I think I ended up at 5 minutes per person, which is still VERY quick by medical standards, but in a lot of situations the KT didn't have 20 minutes to spare). Increasing the time it took to be treated made them actually think tactically, versus assuming "we have 30 sec for the Apoth to patch us all back to full."

A note on Devastators: yes, they help chew through big hordes. But fighting huge hordes to begin with quickly turns into nothing more than a tedious affair of back-and-forth volleys and math, Devastator or no.

A note on Librarians: the DW phenomena rules are weak-sauce, especially Rite of Sanctioning (which I would ban, because it removes a lot of issues with psychic powers). I made manifesting a lot more dangerous (i.e. phenomena can happen a lot more often), which I feel like fits with the setting, and my Librarians have been pretty thrilled with it surprisingly.

Rite of Sanctioning is okay. Most Psychic Phenomena are not negative. They are mostly neutral effects for show. Note that if you roll 75+ on Psychic Phenomena, RoS does not apply. You go straight to Perils.

Warp Conduit and Favoured by the Warp are more problematic. Re-rolling via Fate on Unfettered to avoid Psychic Phenomena is even more problematic. I consider house ruling that the re-roll affects only the success of the power use, not whether there are Psychic Phenomena or not.

Alex

the last guy is hesitant to play a Librarian strait out of the gate due to the rules loading it will cause on a new game, don't know what he wants to play (should find out at tonight's DH game) but he has asked for recommendations.

Apothecary doesn't have good advances. And actually fewer than others. I houseruled some changes to make the specialty beefy.

If not Librarian (nor Apothecary), I would recommend Devastator - given the group composition. Devastators are not just heavy weapon guys - they are the shooty class and can easily made into expert snipers. They really get a number of good gear options once you hit Respected or Distinguished renown.

Alex

Rite of Sanctioning is okay.

I just find it extremely f***ing boring/predictable. Some of the Phenomena can cause setbacks (not as much as Perils) but I got SO sick of seeing "ok, phenomena, defaults to Hoarfroat [no real effect]." YAWN.

Apothecary doesn't have good advances. And actually fewer than others. I houseruled some changes to make the specialty beefy.

Same. I let them have all 3 of their Specialty Abilities instead of picking one (seemed thematic that they would be good at healing AND reducing Corruption AND knowing about biology to poison) and I moved some things on their Advance scheme to lower Ranks on top of adding other Skills/Talents flat out.

Rite of Sanctioning is okay.

I just find it extremely f***ing boring/predictable. Some of the Phenomena can cause setbacks (not as much as Perils) but I got SO sick of seeing "ok, phenomena, defaults to Hoarfroat [no real effect]." YAWN.

A. Sanctioned psyker can always choose to roll if he is bored too.

B. I like having this trademark move. And the GM can always introduce addtional effects. Roll 1d100, the lower the more beneficial side-effects, the higher the worse for the KT. For example, slippery surfaces, equipment malfunctions, combatants distracted, etc.

Same. I let them have all 3 of their Specialty Abilities instead of picking one (seemed thematic that they would be good at healing AND reducing Corruption AND knowing about biology to poison) and I moved some things on their Advance scheme to lower Ranks on top of adding other Skills/Talents flat out.

Right now, I am using this:

Peer (Astartes) - free at Rank 1

Last Man Standing - 500xp at Rank 1

Jaded - 300xp at Rank 2

Flesh Render - 800xp moved from Rank 8 to Rank 3

Stalwart Defence - 800 at Rank 4

Wisdom of the Ancients - 1,000 at Rank 5

Duty Unto Death - 1,000 at Rank 8

That makes the Apo a rugged, highly regarded and experienced battle-brother. He still is neither here nor there but he can make himself useful in a variety of situations.

Alex

If the kill team does not have an Apothacary I'd recommend them requisitioning a sevitor to do medicine (master quality if they have the renown, give it to the kill team as added equipment bypassing the requisition system if they don't have the renown because their superiors will know that they need it.)

Servitors can't use a narthecium. Elite Advance Medicae is where it's at, because the narthe is the most important part.

Apothecaries are really nice to have along.

Devastators are absolutely necessary. Without them the GM will have to nerf some encounters.

I'd try to talk one of the Assault Marines into changing characters, or at least get the TAC to carry a heavy weapon. Heck, get both of them to carry heavy weapons. You can never have too many heavy bolters, except when you need a lascannon instead.

And never bypass the requisition system (sorry Tyrrell). Good games emerge from interesting decisions the players get to make for their characters. Some of their most important decisions come during the requisition, leader-choosing, and oath-taking phases of their missions. Take that away and watch your players' interests drop accordingly. That said, don't let them choose that Glory oath every time, either. I'd limit it to certain missions and not otherwise.

Requisition is (IIRC) entirely at GM's discretion per mission, correct?

So long as the group is in need of additional tools and the Watch has the resources to expend, then I see no problem with permitting extra requisition to the group... although this would not help their renown in the long run. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but nobody likes pushing the cart with four squeaky wheels around.

I'd recommend the Devastator, and I'd also recommend suggesting Boltguns to the Assault Marines, so that they have viable ranged options. Tactical flexibility cannot be overstated (whether TacMarine or otherwise).

Heck, I don't think there is anything preventing an Assault marine from taking a Heavy Bolter or Lascannon as a requisitioned item- they just won't get the backpack ammo supply to go with it. 60 shot box mags for everyone!

Huh. Maybe the new guy should take a Devastator and come from a chapter that favours widespread use of jump packs. He could leave the backpack ammo store at home in favour of a requisitioned jump pack, which would allow for some hellishly mobile firepower. Note to self...

I wouldn't say Devastators are necessary. I play in a three man kill team. An Ultramarine Tactical, A Salamander Techmarine and a Salamander Apothecary. Both Salamanders use heavy flamers (Surturs Breath version). Enemies tend to die fairly quickly when they get in range.

No specialty is necessary, that's the beauty of it. A Techmarine is useful though.

Alex

Heck, I don't think there is anything preventing an Assault marine from taking a Heavy Bolter or Lascannon as a requisitioned item- they just won't get the backpack ammo supply to go with it.

That's not correct. Backpack ammo supplies are standard-issue for all heavy weapon requisitions. But they can't be used at the same time as jump packs (unless you have that Hawk Lord relic or refluffed it for your chapter - it'd be appropriate for some, definitely: Raven Guard definitely come to mind).

Heck, I don't think there is anything preventing an Assault marine from taking a Heavy Bolter or Lascannon as a requisitioned item- they just won't get the backpack ammo supply to go with it.

That's not correct. Backpack ammo supplies are standard-issue for all heavy weapon requisitions. But they can't be used at the same time as jump packs (unless you have that Hawk Lord relic or refluffed it for your chapter - it'd be appropriate for some, definitely: Raven Guard definitely come to mind).

Allow me to rephrase.

Is that sufficiently pedantic to warrant "correct" rather than "not correct?"

Oh yeah, that's fine.

Ok DW hasn't taken off as expected, but it is moving on, the last player has gone Devastator, problem is the Tech Marine keeps losing bits, he lost an arm in the first adventure, half way through the 2nd it's the other hand and half a leg. since the adventures have backed up on to each other he hasn't bean able to get replacements, so until he lost the new round of bits he was holding his gun with his Servo-Arm wile reloading it with his shooting hand.