ravachol said:

I had wanted to do that BUT ...

Cards for the Great City are not put in play like Adventure cards. Any adventurer wandering the city holds on to its current card until it draws one it can "move" to, and thereby discards the previous card... unless (1) it returns to its residence, if it has one, or (2) it leaves the city. In these two cases, it discards the card it holds.

Since the card has no "space" on which to lay it (there's not board for this alternative City expansoin), then there's no way for the Pawn shop accumulate and keep tract of Objects. Plus certain Objects might never be bought there if they can be purchased "new" for 1G at other locations.

But keep those ideas coming anyway... we're always glad to have more people involved in those discussions.

I'm finally back with some spare time. Here is another version of the previous Great City card as an example. You will not the format has changed, though nothing about it is set in stone. It's just an experiment, and I'm still not wholly satisfied with it.

I'm going to try to explain a bit about "playing" the Great City deck as I explain what certain areas of the card are about. I will likely do this in multiple posts to avoid losing a long post due to a timeout in the serverside code execution. Sorry about the complication, but it is the safest way to avoid having to repost a major loss.

The major areas of the card are: Title (at the top right), Encounter Table (just below the Title), District - Sublocation (lower still in the midbar), Connected Districts (to the left of the District - Sublocation), Description (the bottom half of the card). Out of all of these, only the Encounter Table may be missing from some cards when a set encounter, such as meeting a Stranger.

Title

This gives the card's a distinct indentiry inside a District. More than one card in the deck may have the same title and be in the same district. But such cards will have a slightly different Encounter Table or set encounter, as well as being distinguished by a different Sublocation (the second term after the District in the midbar).

Encounter Table

First it should be noted that Fate (either by standard rules or the True Fate System - see In the Balance expansion documents) may be used on this roll. Since it partially represents a character's own action in navigating the city, its Fate as given by the higher power(s) of its Alignment is applicable.

Certain encounters (in Italics) can occur in many places; hence they aren't described on cards. Those in the example card aren't the only possibilities, and not all would be present in every encounter table (of those cards that have one. Some wouldn't occur at all in some Districts; others would have higher or lower chance in varied places. Example: "Cutpurses" will be more frequent in moderate to wealthy locales with high foot traffic, while less common in poor districts, and nonexistent in highly patrolled districts. In all cases when rolled, these standard encounters follow the same pattern of execution every time.

Finalized explanation, if these are still in the deck's final version, can be placed on a two- or one-sided single sheet prepared for printing on cardstock. The sheet is then folded in half, producing a convenient 5.5x8.5 inch pamphlet for quick reference during a game. Overall, rules for standard encounters will be easily memorized in time, like many aspects of standard Talisman play. More details on proposed standard encounters will come in a following post.

District - Sublocation

District is important in many ways, but primarily for how an adventurer navigates the city, wanders randomly about, or both. The approach to its use is an alternative interpretation of a suggestion from Dorian / Dth. At present, there are 7 Districts planned (though more or less are possible). Their temporary labels used hopefully make their meaning and possible flavour somewhat understood for what they are.

1. Lowside (residential, a market for daily needs, few shops, dubious pursuits, cheap residences, taverns, lots of crime)
2. Midside (middle class, a market for daily needs, some shops and services, nice residences, minimal crime, some rentals)
3. Highside (highline residences, almost not crime, everything is very costly, lots of city guards, a few specialty shops, no open markets)
4. Civic or Bureacractic (highly patroled, potential intrigues, only specialty services, low crime if any)
5. Portside (imported goods, caravan and teamster outpost for travel, ship passage for purchase, warehouses, moderate criminal activity, etc.)
6. Merchant (the heart of goods and services for the city, high traffic, lots of low crime but no fews serious crimes, higher rate of special encounters)
7. Trade/Craft (guild and industry center, intrigue and crime moderate, and a greate dislike of nonsense by wanderers or adventurers, well patrolled)

Sublocation is less important, perhaps not truly being needed as yet. It does help to distinguish multiple cards of the same Title (and District) from each other. If one adventurer draws a Great City card of the same Title (and hence District) as another currently in the city, the drawing adventurer has the option of encountering that the other character.

Districts will vary in size, as represented by the number of cards devoted to them. In general, there will one set of like Titled cards per district. Thereby, the larger the district (with a greater count of cards), the less chance adventurers have to run into each other. More on how an adventure actually moves through the districts will follow in another post.

Connected Districts

These list the districts that connect to the one named in the midbar. Certain districts are simply not connected to each other. For example, one could not walk out of Lowside into Highside or the Civic district. These connected districts tell a wandering adventurer which districts they go do to from this location (plus cards of the same district as the one already held). When an adventurer's turn comes, and it wishes to continue through the city by drawing a new Great City card, it has to be in one of these districts or the same as the card itself. If not, the adventurer discards the newly drawn card and must re-encounter the card already held. (Unless of course, by Renown and/or having a Residence, the adventurer can draw more than one card to choose from in a new turn. More on this later.

Description

This area can describe (1) options of choice or (2) rolled encounters that are not standard ones, or (3) both in some cases as needed. Details will vary widely as needed.

Time for a pause for dinner... and to get this posted before I lose it. More coming this evening (hopefully) or tomorrow morning.

How adventurers would move through the Great City.

Based on the proposed stuff I've posted, here is how it might work. And I've already conceived another needed District, so to speak, that would be needed as a starting point. Let's take Big Bob again entering the Great City for the first time. And any adventurer without a residence in the CIty, and hence a resident of a particular district, enters the city in the Gate district... which will be represented by an appropriate illustration for the card back's for the Great City deck.

Big Bob has no Renown and no Residence, so he can draw only one card. But first he must shuffle the Great City deck. Each time an adventurer enters the city, the deck is shuffled no matter how many others are in the city and may be holding a Great City card. All discarded cards are placed face up under the bottom of the deck, so that it is always apparent when the deck is used up and must then also be shuffled. Big Bob finishes his shuffle and draws the top card.

He immediately checks the Connected Districts listing on the card (left of the District - Location listing in the midbar.) If one of the connected districts is the "Gate" district, he's found a connection to the card's district and can keep the card to finish his turn. Otherwise, he discards and must wait for his next turn to try again to find his way. He's essentially lost in the Great City, overwhelmed by its bustling streets and winding ways.

ASIDE: There are two things to note with this.

1. Something may have to be devised to get adventurers "connected" more quickly (but not with ultimate certainty) on their first draw for their first time in the Great City. Otherwise it might take too long to get them moving. The "Gate" district should not be connected to everywhere, but should probably have more connections than most cards... essentially assuming there are more than one city gate that lead into different parts.
   
2. It is possible that on these turns, if the card has an Encounter Table, the adventurer should roll anyway - but it should not be allowed to encounter any options or rolls other than the Standard Encounters (which will be explained a bit in the next post).

Let's say Big Bob is holding a card from the Lowside district. And let's say he gets to try option 2 just mentioned. He can't do anything except a rolled Standard Encounter (the one's in Italics and not anything referencing the card's Description area). He does get lucky, in a way, and rolls a Residence standard encounter. This means he can look through the "Deed" cards (yes, something more to explain later). If there's one still available in Lowside, he can buy it if he has the gold or other currency.

Residences in Lowside are the cheapest because nobody wants to live there. But he finds one still available and buys it to get a foothold as a "resident" in the city. Now, whenever Big Bob enters the Great City, he can start in the Gate district OR in his residence district, Lowside. And if he ever goes home to miss a turn for special benefits or stash objects and currency, he automaticly starts in Lowside is he goes about the city instead leaving into the Outer Region. Whenver Big Bob is in his own district, he gets to draw one extra card to choose from when he goes out into the City.

On his second turn, Big Bob is now at home, having just bought it. That means he's in his home district and gets a bonus draw. He draws two cards and looks at both to see if Lowside is its District, or if Lowside is at least listed amond its Connected District. Either way, he has a connection (a route, a path) to the location on the card. And the second one, though its in the Guild/Craft district, has Lowside listed in its Connected Districts.

And so that card (we'll call it the Iron House for smiths and the like) is now Bob's new location for this turn. He looks over the card, first checking to see if he needs to make a Standard Encounter roll. This time let's saythere's only a roll for card described encounters. So he rolls, and then checks the card's description area to see what happens... or what his options are.

The two other standard rules apply to leaving the Great City and to returning Home. Any time an adventurer wishes to discontinue drawing cards and leave the city, they may do so automatically without finding their way to the Gate district. Any time an adventurer wishes to return to their own residence, they may do so automatically without finding their way to their own district. Both are a bit of a bend of reality, but in these instances it SEEMS better to keep it simple... unless anyone has another notion.

Next time... tomorrow... I'll post some notions for the Standard Encounters, the ones appearing in card roll tables that are listed in Italics (and the ones that will be described likewise in a gameside printable pamphlet. But please feel free to jump in here with any comments related to what I propose so far.

Grr - lost my post Will try again later.

Second attempt...

JC!

Right, first off, LOVE the card City card template. That is excellent.

Just a few comments, however;

• Too much information. I totally get what you are trying to do but I think you need simplify your ambitions. Too much dice rolling, too much that can happen. Talisman is a game of "And/Or" to me, not "Maybes". I don't like the random encounter scenario too much, especially if it is going to be with every pulled card.
• The District to District connection was pretty much what I was suggesting with my coded symbols, however, I think I confused things with the idea of paths. I'm a big believer in trying to reduce the amount of information on a card and symbols/icons are the easiest way to do this.

I suggest that you trigger certain events (like City Watch, Cut-purposes etc) by using a series of coded symbols. Where these symbols appear on your "Current location" and your "new Location", then something happens.

For example:

Arthur is currently at the "Lazy Pig Tavern". On his next turn in the City, he draws the "Dark Alley".

Now, the Lazy Pig has the symbols (S) (indicating a Stranger) and © (indicating a Cut-purse). Now the Dark Alley is a valid location for Arthur to go to, so he must encounter that card. Unfortunately, the Dark Alley also has the © symbol on it... looks like someone followed Arthur from the Lazy Pig!

It is also my opinion that any such effect should be automatic. No faffing with rolling any more dice. In this case, a Cut-Purse might automatically steal 1 random object. Now I think if you trigger a conditional event like that, this is your encounter for the turn but you may feel otherwise.

You might also have conditional encounters specific to a card.

For example:

Arthur continues his journey through the city. He is currently on the "Grand Market". This has the symbol (V) for Vendor. His next card is a "Back of a Card" card. Now this has a conditional encounter: if his previous location has a (V) on it, he gets to meet the "Black Marketeer", otherwise nothing happens or may be he encounters the City Watch...

Just some ideas!

Best Regards

DTH

Lots of good input, guys, and I'm much appreciative. Some things you've raised are also doubts I've had, but I threw them into a card just the same to see what others thought. As an aside, this one card (of 52 proposed) was packed on purpose. Not all cards would be like that. It was more of an example of what could be on any card. But there are some design paradigms being missed here (or maybe not), so bear with me a little while I try share my mind set as well. Then I'll wait to see what you think in turn.

First, the GC cards shouldn't be thought of as cards - they are "spaces" first and foremost. The difference is that they are held individually by the player for their character and drawn randomly... sort of. This twist requires that the "space" (just like on a board) be clearly and easily identifiable with a sense of "place" always foremost.

In addition, it must have a sense of rational connection to other "spaces." This more than just about a title and picture, and it must be clearly recognizable or players lose a sense of place and treat cards like just another simple Adventure deck. That is not my purpose, and I would consider that a waste of time. Players can get that in any old commercial expansion with a standard board. This place continuity must remain grounded for players at all times to be comfortable with this semi approach to a virtual board done through cards.

Second, these space-cards must also function simultaneously like an adventure deck, because there isn't a second deck to draw encounters from in the GC when a player sucessfully moves to another "space." This is the element we're all having similar misgivings about in different ways to different degrees. At same time, the encounter for a space should not be the same every time. That would again make it no more than another alternative adventure deck and a wasted effort. Without another deck to draw from, another form random influence to change encounters on a "space" must be used. But as with any "board," it must be a method that is exclusive to the "space" the player is on, and not any other "space." On the main board, or any expansion board, encounters are exclusive to spaces and not the last space you were on.

It would be too much for encounters to be interpreted and determined by the card that came before (which wouldn't work for a first draw) or the card that came after it (which wouldn't work for leaving the city). And it wouldn't produce a balanced level of randomness (something greater that set cards, but less than a 1 in 104 chance). I'd say at least 50% of the cards need some form of randomness or the deck will quickly become monotonous... just as the standard adventure deck does and hence why expansions are purchased.

Even if every GC card were to have two alternate elements randomly possibly, it still wouldn't be as random as the main board (yes, that's true if you do the math). Think of it this way...

Each time we move a character we roll a dice. (1 random). We have no control in general over where we end up thereby other than to choose from two differenet directions... we hope... unlike some options discussed for "movement" within the GC. Type of space encountered (drawing a card, options to choose from, etc.) vary notably (2 randoms). In general for the Outer Region, there are 17 out of 24 spaces (71%) where an Adventure card is drawn (3 randoms). It's a BIG one, considering 1 card is drawn from a 104 card deck (discounting the use of expansions). In addition, there are 3 spaces with enforced random rolls of die, 2 spaces with optional choices that include random rolls (5 randoms, at least). Then we consider different types of spaces may give certain characters certain addtional options, benefits, or deficits base on abilities, follower, objects, etc. And there's a lesser to greater degree of encountering or being encounter by another character, not mention spells, events drawn by someone else, etc. (?? random variables.)

The randomness is even higher than what is hinted at here, but I won't bore you with more specific math. (Too late, you say? ) And this is the same for all expansions with physical boards to a lesser degree. Their problem is not that they are too random (well, not in all cases); its that they offer don't offer a balancing amount of control to the player. Which is something we've been addressing.

The difference with the GC deck or any Space Expander Deck run as a virtual board has to be that somehow some randomness must be generated without the use of secondary deck. Certainly not all or to the same immense degree as the main board. And the randomness as well as sense of place needs to be contained in the "space" the character is within during its turn. I'm still struggling to find a way to accomplish all this, but I do think it is possible.... I hope.

Any additional thoughts on how to accomplish concrete sense of individual space and randomness of encounter on at least 50% of the spaces? (Sometimes in combinations with other options as well.)

ADDENDUM: NEW NOTION VERSUS PREVIOUS POST

Something else came to me when I woke up this morning... echoing some things that may have previous been implied by others but I wasn't paying attention. I wanted to get in here. It's counter to some things I was thinking yesterday, and I still have reservations, but it may be a way to bring in the randomness needed (through card draw itself... partially). I went back to re-review some of the encounter options mentioned and had the notion that maybe it isn't about finding fewer or THE method to generate encounters... but more of them! Here are the methods mentioned so far.

1. Random roll (JC's notion) with a preset small list of encounters, possibly listed on the card instead of referenced.
2. Origin space (Dorian's notion) where what's encounter is dependent upon the district one came from.
3. Choice (such as was listed on the sample card but without a roll on top of it).
4. Single encounter such as if drawing a Stranger, Event, or Place... but suitable by district... or not in some cases?
5. Character dependent, where what is encountered is determined by something about the character.
6. Other? (I actually do hope there are others as well.)

I'm wondering if this would provide an actual system by which mixed cards themselves could provide more randomness rather than making all cards use the same method of encounter generation. And if you have notions for other methods that we should consider, please through them out here now.

For now, we should throw aside notions of Residence, Renown, other benefits/deficits/etc.... then perhaps look for places that they can be added in later. And some of these methods have known issues that have to be faced.

Random roll

• Probably needs its possibilties listed directly on the card instead of a reference sheet.
• Details of each type of encounter can be simplified or standardized in some cases, such as the cutpurse being a standard strength. But still with a roll to spot it if its able to sieze a lot all at once. It shouldn't a be confused with a pickpocket (which weren't around in medieval times) nor a raider or bandit or other element exactly as found in other cards/decks. Thugs likewise might be standardized, or at least have a standard strength with a roll for number of them.
• Other improvements could be approached, and of course the types of encounters would be different per different Random Roll spaces within a single district, let among different between districts. There might be one or two that do get repeated, with their probability altered by the district in question.

Origin space

• There's a potential kind of a logic loop problem in this one, but it can be mitigated in a way.
• If an adventurer can't move on in its next turn (no connecting card is drawn), its not the same as not rolling a dice for movement. The adventurer turns back through the same space/district looking for another route. It re-encounters the same space based on coming from the card's district to the card's district. In multiple turns of failing to get a connecting space, it keeps re-encountering the same space... and the same designated encounter.
• This can be partially mitigated in two ways:
• if the number of connecting districts for any district (hence any spaces in it) are at least 3 other districts, then combined with the space's own district, that's 4 out 7 districts where the next card drawn can be taken. Even with not being able to draw extra cards to choose from, the adventurer still has around a 57% chance of drawing a space it can move to. In two successive turns / draws it accumulates to about 88%. So in most cases, the worst it would do is repeat a card twice before getting a new space it could actually use.
• The encounter for coming from a space in the drawn cards own district (hence what would also be re-encounter) could be an encounter with either another sub-method of randomness, simply a Choice option, or a null where nothing happens (though that's bit boring).
• (FOR LATER: If it has a Residence in the district it is currently in, there's an 88% chance of drawing a new space it can use on the first draw, and same chance for all districts if it has a certain amount of Renown. So both a Residence and Renown become desirable for swifter, surer movement through part or all of the city. And if Renown is transferrable to other later populated space decks, it has a built in benefit for getting to good stuff in the City as well as elswhere. Thereby Renown is a way to get to good stuff rather than being a type of currency to be spent upon leaving the city or another space with a deck.)

Choice

• As an obvious method, it should probably be the least used in some districts (such as Lowside), more in others (Merchant, Trade).
• Choices might be as simple as what's available to gain, or broken down into sublocations that offer different groups of possible gains (such as the same card.
• Some cards might have risk or challenge options to choose, where the adventurer actually chooses to take a chance in DOING something. Can't think of anything immediately, but activity is better than just plain choices of gain or random unavoidable effects enforced upon the adventurer.

Single

• These could be either cards exclusive to a district, hence a standard space & the same single encounter every time. Internally they would need some other random element or at least an activity where the adventurer (player) is trying to beat odds somehow... otherwise these spaces will be the first to grow monotonous in repeated play.
• Or perhaps ones that aren't a space at all. Something comes at the adventure (good, bad, or just interesting) before it can move on; a kind of missed moved but where something has actually happened. They could be Events that affect the just the district, City, or even the Region or Land. They could be like Strangers wandering about, maybe other psuedo-NPC adventurers rather than more of the Adventure decks type of Strangers. Or something else entirely.
• The second option should probably be set aside, if it is used at all, since the primary concern here is making spaces first.

Character Dependent

• These are spaces where I'm not quite sure what to do.
• In this method of encounter for virtual spaces, we shouldn't have things like a "Chapel" or City version of the Graveyard where there's no opposite way to go around the board to avoid losing a life by Alignment. UNLESS... the adventurer always has the option to reject a space drawn and re-encounter the one it holds.
• Still, I'm highly reluctant to repeat types of character dependent stuff already in the game... though I haven't quite thought of any new ones other than perhaps based on character type (Mages, Warriors, Criminals, etc) or tests based on attributes (Strength and Craft, or even Lives, Gold, Fate, whatever).

Other

• Essentially, if you can think of another way that encounters could be generated per "space"... please put them out here!
• We can look at the list, determine which should be kept for mixed use, which shouldn't, or which should used most or least often in a district.

How these methods are divided among the count of cards in a district is something more to consider. If we don't use a method for ratio of encounter methods, and simply divy them up equally, we can go through the list those chosen and just fill in what's needed. But if we stick to the idea of different districts having more or less cards, some methods might automatically end up being used more than others in standard rotation of implementation per card.

Example: Lowside has 7 cards, so: Random, Origin, Choice, Single, Charater, Random, Origin.

So I have to ask about determining count of cards (spaces) per district as well. There are three basic methods, and it is possibly that something inbetween two or all three needs to be used.

1. Flat count per district
2. District Proportional count based on historical sizes for a major medieval (port or other) city. (I have resources for this.)
3. Player Interest count, where districts of most interest to players would have more cards... assuming we can guess such for all types of players.

Well, that's that. Let me know your thoughts on these two fundamental issues.

Some sample cards as I continue to toy with mixed encounter methods for final use. The low resolution is causing some image quality problems here; printed versions will be much better, though these are not ready for actual play.

The bottom three "Residence" cards have some new notions (which I may not keep). "Checks" are rolled on 2D6 only once upon each return to the City; rolling equal or below the number brings about an effect. "Theft" means the loss of 1 Object or Gold (random) left in the residence. "Disaster" refers to some worldly or natural event requiring repairs to your residence for 1G. "Tax"... well, all property owners should expect it, and it costs 1G.

Bank accounts allow you to treat your property deed as a Bank Draft. But funds used this way can only be spent at civilized spaces, Place cards with a persona, and Strangers who set up business. (No, you can't use a draft gold to pay off the Black Knight, etc.). But draft gold can never be stolen by any means.

I repeat, these are just notions... and yes, there are less expensive residences planned for Midside and Lowside. The two you see for Highside are the ones for that district... though they carry hefty benefits versus lower price digs. Comments are welcome.

I don't have time to give you a full critique but I really like the card layout and images.

Great work! Will go over things as soon as.

Busy, busy, busy!

Don't worry about getting in any response if you don't have time. Life and personal pursuits first! I happen to have had some down time myself yesterday and pumped these.

The more I think about, the more I'm inclined to go back to "reference" (sheet) standard encounters, like cutpurse, constabulary, city guards, etc... whether determined by roll or district reference. Since they are the same everytime, they should be easy to memorize after playing them for a game or two. And they take up a lot of room on the cards, even when their basis is kept simple.

The final set of proposed Residence cards. Lower the price, the more there will be to chose from. Higher the price, the fewer. However all will be limited to the number cards presented, and an adventurer will have to stumble up one for sale during time in the city and not just buy them on whim.

Just a small comment about the design of the cards. It would seem that the space for the name is a little small for placing images behind as they don't seem clear enough for any "identity".

Remember that the cards will be even smaller when printed so perhaps something like a generic background could be used for each district instead, like Stone, Brick, Wood etc?

It looks very good, but i am not really looking for this sort of cards.

But you can make wonderful cards JC

Jon... yes, you're right; I've had the same concern. I did a print out yesterday as a test. It looked better than the 72.5 of screen resolution... but not enough. Some kind of change (or just scrapping that notion) must be done. Also, you once mentioned "benefits" to gained by working in a "Trade/Craft/Guild" district. Care to elaborate a bit when you have time?

Velhart... residences acquired (not drawn) are a side feature for aid in working the Great City deck and for small benefits elsewhere. They won't really be a major part of the game at large and aren't important to main play. The square city cards will be the main event. More to come on those once I have time and do an actual inventory of what might be in that deck.

And while we're at it... feel free to give notions on what would be of interest for adventuring in the city.

I am still thinking about city adventures.

What about if you land on the city, and you must roll a die. 1-3 nothing happens. 4-6 a event takes place.

Draw a card from a city adventure deck.( or maybe it must be called something else..)

A lot is possible with this.

Something can be happening in the tavern, or some soldiers has set up a camp ( you must place that card somewhere etc

I think this will add a lot of fun, but a card with only text is boring so it is not easily made..

There are more things going on in the world of talisman while a character is walking, fighting with a beast..

Hey V., overall there will be some adventure in the city, though suitable to an urban environment. Ocassionally even three different ways you'll draw an actual Adventure card as well while there (Rumor, Secret, and straight up "Adventure" encounter inside the City itself). Not likely that I'll have too many things that get placed out on the board, as the board already gets pretty full with the standard A-deck and its expansions. Don't want to glut the board too much.

I'm still wrestling with more spell cards for now, so it will be a little while until I get in some more City cards examples.