Some have already responded to my mention of decks sans expansion boards for some spaces on the main board, starting with one for the City. I thought I would open up a new topic for anyone who cares to discuss options. Please feel free to provide any notions, additions, or counterpoints as you see fit.

I intend the decks to be more than simply a "draw 1 card" as an option. Drawing from the 52 (or maybe 104) card deck is an option in addition to what is on the space, but if you do, there is no guarantee you will be leaving on the next turn.

Each card will have

• a "Type" (much like the Adventure deck as listed in the midbar), with proportions somewhat the same
• a "District" (roughly defining what things might be encountered or available, and also listed in the midbar)
• an "Exit" indicator for IF and HOW one may leave the space on the next turn instead of drawing again.
• a "Vagrancy" rating on some, for the chance of a penniless adventurer being booted out for just being a pain and of no use to city life.
• a possible listing for "Renown" to be gained during types of encounters, which might be used to advantage in the City or possibly elsewhere in the Land. Renown would be in three forms: Black, White, and Green. The balance of types held by an adventurer would indicate how an adventurer is viewed by its reputation in certain encounters versus how it is supposed to act according to its alignment.

Some possible Districts (terms are subject to change) would include

• "Lowside" (the poor district, and a haven for the criminal elements),
• "Highside" (the rich residence area, with nobles, notables, and more important personae encounters),
• "Midside" (the largest populated area with common shops and goods and residences),
• "Mechantile" (where high priced items, services, and goods are available, including those typically wanted by adventurers; it would also include possible caravan stations as a way to travel to other spaces to either side of the city),
• "Market" (akin to the open air types common to most large medieval cities, with a random selection of Purchase cards avialable),
• "Portside" (the docks and warhouses, with a possiblity to purchase passage on a ship to other major places in the Outer Region, and also caravan access)
• "Bureaucratic" where law enforcement, governmental, religious, and civic institutions are located... likely not a place that vagabound adventurers want to be seen without some legitimate Renown.

Card dimension would be roughly a height and width equal to the heigth of the current Adventure cards... so basically more room but of a convenient size to fit on an Outer Region corner space.

I do not intend to put in any full scale "quests" (either real quests or what pass for such in fantasy games these days). I also have another future project called "Tasks & Tales" that will be built to interface with standard decks and these "space" expansion decks, so I'm leaving such notions out of the Great City. I perfer for now to keep in as merely "adventuring" and opportunities for characters to gain advantages (for a cost and or risk).

I look forward to those cards.

Maybe it will add some fun to the game.

From city and castle events, to people who are in danger somwhere on the board

City adventures

I'm going to take some time to figure out the proportion of cards according to "District" (and its size) and the proportions of Events, Strangers, etc., by district and deck as a whole. Possibly some new types or replaced types specific to the City. People should feel free to spit out ideas, considerations, anything they think might be kept in mind for the overall concept.

Actual contributions once the balance and structure of the deck are determined will be welcome. Of course anything used will be credited to its creator. Much as I'm going to make any final choices, I have no problem with this being a collaborative or team project for those interested.

In fact, if you have suggestions on the approach to planning itself, please post it.

Hi JC

As stated elsewhere, I'm really interested in this project and the other "3 Corners".

A brainstorming session here is a good starting point but I really do suggest a dedicated forum or mailing list for the project elsewhere. In my experience, too many cooks do indeed spoil the broth.

You will also need a Project Co-ordinator, if other people intend to collaborate. That isn't a problem, as this is infact your "baby", I am sure you'll fill that role most excellently.

As to format for discussion: I think people should splurge as many ideas out for consideration here and then all members of the "Creative Team" should take those ideas away and discuss it. You should have final say (not only to keep your vision intact but also to speed things up!) as any such thing cannot be run by committee...

I'm going to throw my £0.02 in to the hat now. These are just my thoughts/feelings on the issue and ultimately take as much or as little creedence of it as you like

My suggestions are thus:

• This may be a no-brainer or already considered, but all four "Corner Expansions" should follow the same format
• I suggest a smaller deck, roughly 30 cards?
• An idea I had was, in addition to having a "Location" field on the card, would be various symbols, let's say for argument's sake, Diamonds, Hearts, Clubs and Spades (anything would do, I'm just going with the first thing that came in to my head ). What these symbols would represent would be a Path for your journey. Each time a character enters the "Great City", you would shuffle the deck and draw the top card which is the start of your journey (or, alternatively, the start of your journey could depend on where you "went", i.e. Enchantress, Doctor or Alchemist...).From that card you would have 1 or more symbols representing the path you can choose to go down. You would draw a cards, one at a time, off the top of the City deck until you drew a card which had the matching path symbol. In this fashion you could have a "virtual city", eliminating the possibility that a character could go from say, The Slums to The Noble's Quarter....furthermore, it allows you to tailor each "route" to a specific kind of adventure.
• you should be able to leave the city at any time (abandoning your path) but at the cost of some "Prestige/Standing/Face/Reputation" etc. May be all you've earned so far? Perhaps your time/path in the city builds up your Reputation but you ONLY get to keep that rep if you complete your journey and may be spend it on something at the end (a new job, a title or a treasure or something). In this way, the city has a purpose for you to go in and ensures that it is all self-enclosed (i.e. if you don't spend all your Rep on something, it is lost).
• Maybe if you buy a "home", you then gain a 4th option in City: your house! Here you can miss 1 turn to heal 1 Life. Also, whenever you are forced or allowed to teleport to your starting spot, you would be able to choose the City as an alternative option. May be you could even rent the house out to fictional people, so whenever you returned home, you gained 1 Gold Coin?
• You may consider doubling up on all the cards (i.e. two copies of each card) in the deck, so that if other players also go in the city while you are there, they could end up in the same spot as you? Actually, this raises a question: while on a City adventure, are you considered on the board, in another region or in the city? Were you anticipating that you just drew 1 City card when you landed on it or were you thinking more in line with what I put above?

Best Regards

DTH

Hi,

Sounds like you've got some pretty good ideas there. The major concern I have is that it seems very likely that FFG will produce a City expansion as one of the 3 remaining realms meaning that players will be left with a choice between your set and an official one. While I like some fan made sets, especially your In the Balance set, I'm very unlikely to use your City rather than the official one. Hope that doesn't sound too negative!

Geoff

Cidervampire said:

Oh that's certianly understood. And let's face facts. Most players will always choose a commercial expansion over a fan made one. We in the hardcore fan community involved with making expansions know this... or should. My main problem with the new expansions is that even in the old days T2 the table got very crowded. And now... I can barely fit all that's necessary for the standard game on the table, let alone with just my wife and I playing by ourselves having to occassional get up and move around to double check certain spaces. The expansions I propose are an alternative, not a replacement, and would certainly be "faster" to play than those expansion boards. That's all there is to it. I'm not trying to compete with expansions that I'll likely buy as well. Consider what we do here as play time of fancy, not as a competing product.

dth said:

Granted, certainly. And as you stated, I will be coordinating things. I have something of a structure in mind which I haven't quite finalized for putting before all. And I'm not sure where else we could hold a forum, as email is just too cumbersome with making sure everyone gets all the communications and then has to echo out replies in mutliple "threads" so to speak.

dth said:

Agreed on Format. Hadn't thought over the card limit. From what else you propose for a "process" I can see the point, but I'd like to look at this leaning a little closer to the adventure deck. Hence maybe more random thereby, but also a bit more open for further expansion. We should also assume that without an actual board, we can only go so far with the idea of "where" leads to "where" without leaning to complications that beg for a board instead. That defeats the purpose of a deck as a simplified approach to adventuring in city.

I had once thought of a board of a different nature.. more like a city map of districts, where the districts themselves were spaces (or big ones had multiple spaces). Then inevitable came the problem of what cards would have what on them for each possible district. The cards obviously would be too small, so them I was looking at more than one deck. Hence I backed up to the idea of cards only.

dth said:

An idea I had was, in addition to having a "Location" field on the card, would be various symbols, let's say for argument's sake, Diamonds, Hearts, Clubs and Spades (anything would do, I'm just going with the first thing that came in to my head ). What these symbols would represent would be a Path for your journey. Each time a character enters the "Great City", you would shuffle the deck and draw the top card which is the start of your journey (or, alternatively, the start of your journey could depend on where you "went"...

Right there we do run into a problem: it is possible and even likely that more than one character can and will be in the City at the same time. Especially if it offers adventure (of differing nature) equal to the Adventure deck plus the potential for advantage "worked for" rather than stumbled upon like on the main board. If one person picks up the deck and deals out a path, even one card at a time, while another is entering or already there, then we have a problem with one path limiting or potentially even cutting off a second path.

dth said:

And cut off potential now mutliplies, since those cards not usable are now in the discard pile.

dth said:

I do see your point, and it's a like concern I had/have, but the drawbacks are important to face, for there should still be a chance of characters encountering each other once there. With a random draw in wandering, regardless that order of districts encountered might be nonsensical at times, the instant one character draws a district another character is in, there is an chance (by whatever rules are established) to encounter another character. And there's no limit on each characters path. Plus, the deck can be handled more simply as a draw and discard, and when the deck is depleted, it is simply flipped and re-shuffled. Or am I missing something?

dth said:

Not sure about this, but maybe there's some components of you schematic I'm not cataching. Only certain districts in my approach would be near an exit (I'd thought of four: Port, Clockwise out, and Counterclockwise out, Choice). If we use a designated path by cards, then why isn't there a path (required encounters) to get out? And I hadn't planned on the exits being too hard to find. Probably one on about half the cards. Another feature I'd thought of is related to Renown (or whatever we end up calling it) and having a Residence. The more Renown you have, the more familiar you are with the city, and you can actually draw more than one card and choose. If you have a Residence, then anytime you're in your own neighborhood, you drawn an extra card as well and choose. More later.

NOTE: I had also intended that a lot of cards might have a simple roll for differing possibly encounters. Either outright different encounters or variations on the same encounter. Does that make any sense?

dth said:

Another worthy point ... tidyness. I've probably bent (broken, mutilated) that rule a bit in my creations. But the notion of Renown wouldn't be so easy to come by; likely only a little better than getting Fate. And wouldn't the notion of keeping it for the other decks be interesting? Gaining public Renown (by what you do, not by just being there) might well spread by word of mouth. Yes, it's sort of adding a new "stat/attribute" for adventurers, but would be purely token based... and at least its one that's earned instead of given away. Plus all adventurers start with nothing on a level field.

dth said:

Option 1 and 2 are excellent. Hadn't thought of that first one. #3 ... hmm, I don't know... something about adventurers getting into landlordship seems complicated. And it would be a conflict with other notions I had. Each residence has a limit by its district quality for...

• how many objects you can store in it.
• how many followers can stay in it with you.
• how much Currency the local bank can keep for you (though you can leave as much as you want in your residence).
• a chance of being robbed while you away; the chance being reduced for the number of intelligent followers who remain ther as caretakers
• a chance of catastrophy, possibly being utterly destroyed or simply needing purchase of repairs before you're allowed to use it again.
• allowing you extra draw of City cards to choose from while out and about.
• etc....

Some of this would be on the extra "Deed" cards that might be made to accompany the City deck. Others would be possibly general rules known to apply to all residences.

dth said:

Another way to handle it is not by "spot" or specific location but by district or area. It wouldn't be about having a chance to search for that other adventurer (unlike "player" perspective, the "character" wouldn't know who else is in the city until they saw them). If two or more adventurers are in the same district, it would be a roll of the dice on a specific players turn to have the option to encounter that other adventurer instead of drawing another card. Size of district would govern the target number(s) on a 1D6... big districts would be a 7+ (with renown influencing it). Very small districts would be 4+; everything else at 5+ and 6+. Does that make any sense?

dth said:

This brings in a lot of confusion there has been about treating "space" expanding boards as if they are different "regions." I've never agreed with that. The term realm is nebulous, its meaning is unclear versus the standardized terms of the game. EX: The Forest board should always be considered a dense version of the space itself; anything in the Forest is in the Outer Region. Hence, anyone in the Great City would be considered on the board and in the Outer Region. There might be certain special considerations for being inside a fortified urban environment, but that's another issue.

dth said:

Actually kind of inbetween. When you land there, you have the standard options or wandering in the city (unless you already own a residence). If you choose one of the standard options, that's all you get and you move on next turn (unless you also own a residence). It's possible Renown might play some influence here as well, but I hadn't consider it. Once you head into the city, you draw a card there each turn, with potential multiple options and encounters on it, aside from possible exit points, residences popping available, encountering other characters, being robbed, meeting the city guard looking for criminals and "vagrants," etc.

Keep the ideas and analysis coming! I'm holding off on presenting any deck structure ideas at this point, because some notions here need more discussion.

It is probable that the City is vast enough that characters need not bump into each other at all.

You could however place some cards called "Street Corner" or somesuch where chance meetings may occur.

Perhaps there can be a salesman or an interesting stranger there with the possibility of encountering another character that is in the City should you so wish.

Hi Jon, That's actaully a nice idea for City PvP... having it card dependant and rare, since even on the open board (without special movement ability), in most games of 2-4 players it doesn't happen a lot.

Hi folks

I guess I didn't explain myself very well but then I only had a bare bones of a proto idea... Let's hope I can develop that a bit better;

1. Neatness and book keeping is an important factor. I don't think it is a great idea to be having cards strewn everywhere and more importantly, I think any "Rep/Standing/Catdollars/Whatever" needs to be a self-enclosed factor within the city.

I totally see your idea, JC and agree it would be cool to have a Reputation that could preceed you across the land but I have a few issues with that;

1.1 One presumes you would intend this Rep to have game effects within further "corner expansions" and/or new Adventure cards? Otherwise, it doesn't really do much

1.2 This leads in to other ways of earning Rep: you would have to add new cards to allow accrual outside the City. Otherwise, you are effectively creating a new currency that is only obtainable from one spot... Unless that is your intention?

1.3 And this leads me to the fact that you would be creating a new currency that purchased/affected/effected other game effects, as that is where it will ultimately lead. Unless tightly controlled, it could lead to overcomplication, which is against the spirit of Talisman in my view.

Just my thoughts. Again, I like the concept just worry that it could cause future problems.

2. I like Jon's solution of "Street Corners": effectively making Confluence Cards where characters may encounter one another within the City but are otherwise so far apart from one another within the labrythine alleys that they may never meet one another.

But this is another reason that there should be two copies of every "Location" card. And brings me to explain what I meant in my earlier
post:

2.1 I don't think there should be a discard pile, instead, you draw a card, that is your current "location", when you "Move" on your next turn, you draw a new card and either move to a new location or have an encounter (a Stranger/Event whatever).

Any card otherwise discarded goes to the bottom of the deck.

2.2 A player would keep out their current location and wouldn't "discard" it until they had drawn two locations. In this fashion, a character would always be able to go back the way they came, but only so far. Everytime a new card is drawn, the deck is shuffled.

3. I believe there should be "paths" within the city for two reasons:

3.1 Citizenship

3.2 Too control the kinds of encounters and "flow of traffic" through the City.

Citizenship is an idea I came up with while trying to organise my thoughts on this whole matter.

The idea is that someone new to the City is attempting to gain enough Rep to gain sponsorship to become a resident of the city. A resident gets a home (as discussed in previous posts) and would then be entitled to gain positions within the city (Sheriff et al).

Using a path system, you could set it up so that x number of paths help you get Rep and lead to citizenship and also, that you have a path that only citizens can take. The citizen path can be a lot less random. So you could allow such characters to reach special locations much easier.

4. There is still some question about how you wish to handle the drawing of cards etc. Do you stay on the City space and keep drawing cards instead of rolling for movement or do you go to the city, draw 1 card and then roll as normal next turn?

Just as a sidenote, I would hesitate in making things overly complicated as Talisman is RPG ultra-lite as we know.

Perhaps anything "new" brought in with the City should be limited to a couple of "mechanics". Perhaps one being specific to the City and one with global significance.

Rep/Notoriety might possibly give you advantages out in the wide world where people might be swayed by your popularity or perhaps they have heard of your exploits.

The chance of a safe haven within the City could be the specific thing, but I would suggest using starting spaces for anything to do with that mechanic as it is simpler to think of something that is already on your character card. Perhaps Citizenship (of the land of Talisman as granted by the rulers in the CIty) allows you to settle on your starting space?

Perhaps Guilds can grant a new ability, like Master Level characters, but less so.

Just some random thoughts for you to mull over....

Okay, some interesting input, and I did reply to Dth and Jon, but again lost the whole thing to a forum glitch. Gotta run for now, but I will try to get back to it again before the end of the day.

I'm also going to finalize ITB Part 2, Purchase cards... time permitting around writing and some home improvements.

Okay, one more try...

dth said:

Absolutely... and no cards would remain on the square. Once a card is encounter and perhaps exchange for another on the next turn (see later in this post) it is discarded.

Renown (or whatever) would be exclusive to the City and other corner square "decks." (I have in mind a deck for the Graveyard, but Renown wouldn't be used there.) In other words, Renown only works (as it would) in major civilized places with commerce, trade routes, and hence communication. Renown (in my mind) has no affect "in the wild" on other spaces or with any standard adventure card. I suppose something might be invented there, but I don't see openings for its use without extensive add on rules. And that violates the neatness factor considerably.

dth said:

One of the reasons I want 52 card to start with has to do with the Districts. The percentage of cards per District depends on its size. Jon's notion is excellent in that respect. A single "Street Corner" or "Open Square" card in each District subdeck would mean the chance of (optionally) encountering another adventurer would be directly proportional to the size of the District.

Additionally, many of the cards would not be single encounter. Some might have a roll for type of encounter (on top of some standard ones for all). And agreed that choosing to encounter another adventurer at the Street Corner means forfeiting any choice based or rolled encounters (except some basic ones that get rolled most of the time for all: pickpocket, rumor, city guard & vagrancy check).

The Great City should be an adventure, but it should also be hard to come by advantages and have some low to moderate level risks minor loses and just being a waste of turn once in a while.

dth said:

Okay... I see what you mean about the discard. And indeed I had in mind half of what you mentioned. But I also think that too much shuffling will likely lead to players becoming frustrated. So using what you mention and what I have in mind, here's a bit better explanation (though I really do need to explain my notions for Renown better at some near future time).

Let's say Bob the adventurer has bought himself a Residence in "Highside." Very pricey, but a good neighborhood. Low chance of a break-in (loss of goods or gold stored), and decent Bank nearby (can store gold to spend on the road without fee of losing it). Low chance of catastrophy while he was away (so low chance of possible home repairs upon returning). And he has been in and out of the City regularly, so for his various exploits and deeds there he has built up enough Renown for a small advantage.

• When Bob returns to the Great City, as a Resident, he starts in his own district if he wishes. He decides to go out and about for a stroll, and so he can draw 1 City card.
• As a resident (a homeowner), he knows his own neighborhood better than most. He draws 1 more card when he is in his own district (according to the district on any city card he's holding or when he's just starting out from home).
• Per certain Renown levels, extra cards can also be drawn (based on having gotten around and people either being friendly enough to help or too scared not to in pointing the way). Let's say he has 5 Renown points (3 Good, 1 Neutral, 1 Evil), and that's the first level. He draws 1 more card for his level of Renown.
• Big Bob draws 1 + 1 (Resident) + 1 (Renown) = 3 City Cards
• He now chooses 1 card as his destination and discards the other two. He decides he's off to Lowside, thereby stepping out of his own district.

On his next turn

• Bob now is outside of his own district, so he loses his Residence bonus. He can only use Renown, so he draws 2 cards and must choose between: (1) keeping 1 to encounter and discarding his last card and the other new one, or (2) re-encountering his current card [turning back through that district by another route] and discarding both new ones.

Shuffling the Deck

To keep shuffling to a minimum, but still make certain there's enough randomness, the deck is only shuffled under two conditions:

1. When the deck is depleted completed (cards discarded are placed on the bottom of the deck face up, so its obvious when it needs to be shuffled), and/or
2. When any adventurer first lands of the city space AND chooses to enter and wander the city rather than encounter a standard option there or hole up in a Residence (if it has one).

dth said:

Interesting notion... hmmm. I had originall conceived of a chance of a residence being available in a district as on standard optional encounter on some cards. It would pop up a few times as a target number to roll. If successful, then adventurer can look in the "Deed" cards to see if one was actually available. The number of deed cards per district would be based on the size of the district. And price (and residence attributes / benefits) would vary accordingly. But I can see a possibility that with enough Renown built up (either by making the authorities impressed or afraid) that one could automatically be offered a Resident. But overall, I think making adventurers "buy" a residence is best as the standard.

dth said:

I see your point overall. But the use of Renown and Residency already reduce randomness and bring choices as you can see... while still keeping enough randomness so that the City doesn't become a complete and utterly safe haven. Renown points would be very much like your earlier mention of icons on cards. For example, one main or optional encounter could be walking into a merchant area just as thieves have broken into a bank. YOu have the option to chase them down and turn them in. Then what do you do with the money? Keep it and kill the villains (earn 1 Evil Renown point.. maybe a black Diamond icon). Kill the thieves but distribute half the money to the poor (Earn 1 Neutral Renown, may a Green Tree icon). Capture the thieves, turn them in, and return the money (Earn 1 Good Renown point, a Gold Star perhaps).

Just notions here to explain a basic idea I had for Renown... plus we should consider where any Strength or Craft of opponents is countable for bumping S / C. (I have a new rule House Rule in ITB Part 1 called "Trophyless Trophies" that deals with this in special way for cards like the Cave).

dth said:

You keep drawing until you can exit, are told to exit, and in either case, a Resident can return "home" instead of exiting and thereby misses that turn. Yes, at some point the adventurer has to be forced to leave or at least stop wandering about. And in the end, it really isn't a great concern. The deck should have some ways to bolster Strength and Craft, stumble upon goods to buy or find, etc., but the Strength and Craft gains should be slightly less than general adventuring. The City is a place to buy advantages with your hard won (hopefull) gold and then a bit more (Renown and Residence) as a bonus on top of a bit alternative adventuring.

talismanisland said:

Agreed... but at the same time I prefer it not be (1) just another alternative Adventure / Dungeon / Forest / etc. deck filled with Enemies, Freebies, etc.... Talisman needs a little spice, or there's no point to making anything homemade for it. Most expansions are too often little more than the same old numbers (perhaps juiced up) and some new pictures.

talismanisland said:

A deep nod of agreement... so perhaps even some of the things that Dth and I are batting back and forth might have to be trimmed a bit once the basic ideas are sound.

talismanisland said:

The key there is "heard of". That's why it would be limited to use in populate areas as destinations on trade routes... hence the corner squares and any other decks that get made to match the Great City.

talismanisland said:

Yes, that's a concern. We shouldn't change things on the character cards that aren't intended to be changed. But doing a settlement in ones Starting Space doesn't always work. It's very hard to justify how anyone would (1) set up house in the Graveyard, let alone (2) gain charter to do so in the City. Something inbetween might be the answer, since being sent "home" (Starting Space) in the game is rather rare.

Any adventurer who has a Residence in the City (or later in the Village for that deck), can choose to be returned to its Starting Space or its Residence. having a Residence then has one other "option" advantage (and options of choice are short in the game versus its randomness). How does that sound? Would there be any complications I haven't thought of?

talismanisland said:

To be honest, I hated those master level characters, which were always to easy to acquire or purchase. Same thing with the Prestige classes of RPG... nothing but pandering to power hungry players. They gave far too much advantage outside of the corner space / board environments in which they were acquired. But...

Your notion of buying, acquiring (or even learning) something new from guilds (in realty these were very rare and always craft/commercial oriented), business, estabilishments, nobles, etc. is intriguing!!! Can you expound a bit, throw out some notions that might take a better twist on what the 2e did the wrong way?

I have a few spare moments to hopefully stir up a bit more discussion. I'd like to return to two notions brought up earlier by two of us (though anyone should feel free to jump in as well).

To Dth/Dorian

I'm wondering a bit more about the issue of paths through the city, and a sense of continuity to its parts. I don't want to try to recreate a morphing expansion board through cards, but there should be some possibility of connections. Instead of symbols to indicate path choices, what about "split" cards? Some cards would just be for a particular district, but others might actually look like two narrow cards side by side. Upon drawing one, you have the choice to go to either as you newly entered district. And of course, certain combinations wouldn't happen (such as "Highside" combined with "Lowside", or "Bureacratic" with "Midside" or so on). Each half card would have its own encounter possibilities, and choice would be up to the adventurer.

Do you see any problems or further additions with this concept? The idea is to keep the adventure in the city based on 1 card held until the next turn and try to minimize tracking too many cards at once.

To Jon/Talismanisland

The concept of limiting adventurers from encountering each other willy-nilly is still and important one. You're mention of the "Street Corner" or some intersection sparked an option. Among the distribution of cards among district labels, what is some "titles" (such as "Shop Row" in the Merchant district) were the same though the individual cards of that same title might have different encounters on them. This brings in Dorian's notion that there should be at least two of each card type... though in this case, it's a duplicate card title (a subarea inside a district) and not always a duplicate card content (listed encounter(s)).

Any time an adventurer draws a card with the same "title" as held by another in the city, that adventurer has the option to encounter the other adventurer instead of the card. [NOTE: There would be no duplicate titles between differing districts, so for example one would not encounter a "Shop Row" in the Merchant and another district.] The downside to this is that the option to do so wouldn't be part of the cards description; it would have to be listed in known rules for using the City deck.

Do you see any trip ups or problems? Are there adjustments or additions that come to mind?

==========================

My schedule is quite cramped right now with spring planting and a new novel. I am also working on notions for the ITB-3, Spells deck. But I'm hoping (gasp) to even throw out some mocked up City cards (or possible blank templates at least) late this week as something more for critique, discussion, etc.

Later All.

The only problem I foresee is that it may get a little complicated keeping track of where everyone else is within the region, which is easier with a board to look at.

I think you could just as easily have Street Corner cards or indeed Town Square ones which can be assumed to be in a "space" that borders upon all districts of the City which would give the possibility of encountering others without having to actually be "in" the area with them. You could even have a few different "Squares" or whatever that could give you the alternate encounter for the card, like Market Square for instance.

I guess I'd have to see something knocked together before I take the thoughts any further though. What you are proposing may in fact be the answer, I am not sure.

As for the linking of Districts by dual cards it might be an idea of keeping it as a square plan with districts in each quarter, so you will only have boundaries with 2 other districts and the potential meeting place in the middle.

...enough rambling for now

I think I'm catching most of your concerns overall, and some of them have left me pondering as well. One thing I may not have made clear.

Unlike other decks (adventure, dungeon, whatever), I intend that when a Great City cards is drawn it is kept by the player... until they (1) leave the city, (2) return to their residence if they have one, or (3) draw another Great City card and choose whether to keep it or not (and discard the extra one). So the cards are in play in the player's hand but are never in play on a board space. This way, every adventurer currently in the city always knows its District (found in the card's middle bar) and Location (inside the District, as found in card's title).

If there were were two adventurers, A and B, in the City, and A is holding the "Shop Row" card in the "Merchant" district... then if B draws a like labeled card, B now has the option to encounter A as if moving onto a A's space on any board. However, A does not have the option to encounter B in reverse.... because A didn't draw a card matching B... unless A does so later of course.

I suppose we might sort of think of it as the spaces of a slightly mixed up virtual board coming to the player's figurine... instead of the figurine being to varied spaces. Does any the example above help any?

If so, maybe you can expand part of what you posted above and use the example to further explain positioning concerns. (I wasn't completely certain I understood all concerns therein.)

I think I will have to see your pre-Alpha files in order to understand the whys and wherefores of the card/board situation. I am not entirely certain how it will all work in practice, but I guess that is what we are sorting out here! I look forward to seeing something soon.

Okay, I'll try to come up with a sample card or two in this week.

Here is one sample card, and it is just a notion. Nothing here is set in stone. Another or two will follow later so I can better illustrate mechanics for moving through the city and potentially encountering other adventurers.

This one's an easy encouter in general. Just places to visit and buy stuff. Note the parchment panel top-right. I had thought of some standard city type of side events that might be possible almost anywhere (and occasionally different ones for different districts). 1d6 is rolled for each one, with a roll equal to or under the number listed triggering a standard event described by rules. In this case...

Cutpurse: any Currency (gold or curreny based cards) or Rings or tiny objects that could fit in one's pouch/purse are suddenly gone. Roll 2D6 under your Current Craft to spot the thief. If successful, roll1d6 for the thief's Strength and Battle to get your purse back.

Obstacle: some accident, public event, crowd, or street performance has blocked the way. Next turn, re-encounter this card again instead of drawing a any new one(s). [NOTE: This gives a chance of even someone with a Residence and/or Renown being able to draw one or more cards on the next turn.]

Guards: If you're wandering about without Currency or a Residence card, roll under your total Renown (of any kind), if you have any. Fail and you're booted out for vagrancy. You immediately discard this card and must leave on your next Turn. [NOTE: there might also be possibilities of being arrested if the adventurer has too much Dark/Evil Renown.]

Rumor: You've overheard some gossip. Maybe its true - or not. Drawn one Adventure and read it to yourself. If it doesn't interest you, discard it immediately. Otherwise, keep it (face down), but you must leave the Great City on your next. If you do not land on a Draw space in that first turn, discard your secret Adventure card. Otherwise encounter the space normally, face the results, then roll 1D6. On a 5 or 6, you encounter the card you hold (Fate may be used). Otherwise discard it as a false rumor.

More to come later...

So, does this mean that you MUST roll at least 3d6 on this card for the Cutpurse etc?

talismanisland said:

Not exactly, and maybe I need to work on some clarity and simplification... if those rolls are something the end deck will keep. And the specific rolls and odds are of course subject to change as things develop.

1. Cutpurse is listed at 1; roll 1D6 and if you roll 1 or less, a cutpurse has stolen your money.
2. If you're purse is stolen, roll 2D6 under your Current Craft. If you fail, the culprit got away; if you succeeded...
3. Roll 1D6 for the Cutpurse's Strength and do Battle to get your purse back.

The other "Required" listings are rolled separately, and it may be that there should be fewer on most cards.

• Cutpurses occur mostly in high population areas like the Merchant District, but away from centers of authority, like the Bureacratic district.
• Guards are found mostly in the high population zones as well, and increase further towards the Bureaucratic and Highside districts.
• Obstacles occur most in high population zones and in industrial areas such as Portside.
• Thugs are also possible, and occur in the less crowded (streetwise) districts, especially further from the Bureacratic, Merchant. Somewhat in places where outsiders and foreigners are found (Riverside, Portside) and wouldn't be missed if they "disappeared." They are essential urban "Bandits", though they'll take Objects as well. And if you don't give them something, they'll try to take a life ... and then take stuff as well if they succeed (like real Bandits would).

There are other notions as well... but only if this subsystem is desirable at all in the end. Still not certain about that. I should hopefully have another example card ... a second card also labelled Shop Row... in another day or so. Perhaps then we can revisit some previous discussion. I am also still thinking about Dorian's "path" approach...

I was wondering about wooden "signs" on the card's side that pointing in towards its image. Each one or more (no more than three, and possibly in place of the parchment items above) could list a connecting district. The adventurer could only "enter" the new card drawn if the one it held was of one of the types on the signs. In other words, the signs show which districts can connect to the drawn card. If the adventurer's current card isn't one them, they discard the drawn card and must re-encounter the one they hold. Make any sense (just as another notion)?

The thought occurs to me from the Cutpurse example that it potentially involves a lot of rolling in one encounter and possibly that is not the end of the card encounter sequence.

Rather than - Is there a Cutpurse? - If so, does he steal your things? - If so, do you get them back?

It might be wiser to have it as - If there is a Cutpurse assume that he attempts to take your things by standard combat. Lose the combat, lose your stuff (a la Raiders) - less steps.

OR

Make each card's "possible" encounters like the Tavern being a choice of d6 things (or d6/2) - For example roll the die, on 1/2 there is a Cutpurse - fight him or lose your gear, 3/4 The Watch arrives and frisks you or worse, 5/6 Visit the Shops detailed on the card... or something.

Does that make sense? As I say, when there are more things to see and understand it may all come clear for me. I am just worried that making things too involved may make things a little longer to resolve but with little more gained than a bit more "realism". The die roll for the encounter does not really hamper things as you are not rolling for movement as such

talismanisland said:

You are correct on both counts. It is a lot of rolling, AND no, if the the Cutpurse is rolled facing the card doesn't end... though maybe it should (the adventurer has to fight to get the money back before it can go shopping anyways).

You may be right that there's too many things to check on one card for Talisman's simplified mechanics and focus. The cutpurse might be better off as a rolled encounter among others, as you suggest. I may still want to has a roll to detect the missing purse quick enough to go after the cutpurse. However, I don't want to turn a Cutpurse into the same thing as Thugs/Bandits, and the Guards (or Watch) may need something else... as well as the chance of an available Residence.

I'd like good variety on many (not all) cards if possible, and a bell curved in the roll (2d6?) to allow greater choices in certain common occurrences (Cutpurse in the Bureacratic might be on 2, while in the Merchant might be 2-4... so somthing).

This brings in the problem of the template. Simply widening the standard card still didn't leave a lot of room. Hmmm... perhaps the roll "table" for your suggested approach migh use the vacated parchment corner and save all description space for itemized encounters rolled? Still might be problematic.

talismanisland said:

Indeed. It clarifies a concern in the back of my own mind. Much as I wouldn't mind the extra rolls, others (the majority) want Talisman to play quick, lean, and clean. When it comes time to set up another experimental card, I'll redo the last one with these suggestions in mind. Then maybe discussion can refine the approach even more. Thanks Jon!

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all object that is sold in nickel's pawn, can be bought at 2G