Here's the reasons I'm against a ISD.
It doesn't fit in this game. It's too big and powerful for even the epic rules.
It will mean we won't get a Imperial ship that actually works for this game.
A Vigil will give us everything we really want, fits in the game and stays true to canon and the rules that we already have.
If scale doesn't matter, why not ask for a Death Star model on the table.
And this is a logical falacy, and ignores the point entirely. Exaggurating an argument to mock it is rude.
How is it different? The reason a Death Star is obviously too big is because fighters spent a chunk of the movie flying in and around it. The reason an ISD is obviously too big is that a CR90 was pulled into the hanger bay of one in the opening shot.
Also the arguments of the pro ISD are:
1. It's iconic.
2. They played an important part of the space battles.
Both of which are true of the Death Star.
Edited by Disgruntled
If scale doesn't matter, why not ask for a Death Star model on the table.
And this is a logical falacy, and ignores the point entirely. Exaggurating an argument to mock it is rude.
How is it different? The reason a Death Star is obviously too big is because fighters spent a chunk of the movie flying in and around it. The reason an ISD is obviously too big is that a CR90 was pulled into the hanger bay of one in the opening shot.
Thank you!
Exaggurating an argument to mock it is rude.
No it's not, he's using Reductio ad absurdum which is a completely valid argument and not a logical fallacy.
How is it different? The reason a Death Star is obviously too big is because fighters spent a chunk of the movie flying in and around it. The reason an ISD is obviously too big is that a CR90 was pulled into the hanger bay of one in the opening shot.If scale doesn't matter, why not ask for a Death Star model on the table.
And this is a logical falacy, and ignores the point entirely. Exaggurating an argument to mock it is rude.
That does not look like a Star destroyer. It looks like somebody made something designed around the idea of a Star Destroyer. That is just not enough.
Without the elevated command center the whole thing just looks incomplete and squashed. The angles are too shallow. There are a million reasons it just is not, and will never be, an acceptable halfway gesture. It looks like something you would see in a Star Wars Ripoff.
Oh, the Vigil looks like something from a Stars Wars ripoff. But a "look, I'm a little bigger than a CR-90" ISD would be "authentic".
Try not to make our arguments for us man.
But guys, FFG has already tipped their hand at having an ISD in the game!
Look at this picture from the new Tournament Rules - that's CLEARLY an Imperial Star Destroyer in the background!!! ALSO seen behind the TIE Bomber in this expansion pack!!!
Oh god! Oh god! Oh god! Look what I found behind the TIE Interceptor: the DEATH STAR itself!!!
MY PREDICTIONS FOR WAVE 5:
Oh, the Vigil looks like something from a Stars Wars ripoff.
It looks exactly like it was intended to look IMO. Like someone wanted to make a small ship that still looked like an ISD.
I don't think anyone would confuse it for an ISD. But anyone who would buy it would either know what it is, come here and ask, or look it up themselves.
What gets me is people trying to argue that the Vigil won't work for "aesthetic" reasons, but has no issue with an ISD that is so clearly 1/10th is proper size sitting next to a CR-90.
There is a happy compromise that I saw yesterday. Two of them. Measuring 400 meters in the canon they had the "spear tip" shape and looked like small Star Destroyers...
...give me some time and I'll seek them out.
There is a happy compromise that I saw yesterday.
That's just it, the Vigil is already a good comprise, but for some people unless it's a ISD it's not good enough.
Why are people complaining that it 'looks like, but isn't an ISD'?
I see this as a boon. It caters to both the hardcore fans (knowing ship classes, dimensions, stats, and arguing on forums about them) and the newbies (who can SEE that it looks like a mini ISD). Even FFG, who have no issues altering the scale of vessels to expand upon the game, wouldn't take AN ACTUAL ISD and scale it down, that's ridiculous.
You know what isn't? Thinking smaller. Going down the scale. There are plenty of iconic SW Imp ships to use that are equally as well known as the Phantom, Defender and E-Wing. The Vigil, Lancer, Tartan and Imperial Customs Corvette are all common imp ships of roughly the same scale that have seen iterations in books, comics, video games and more.
I happen to think the Vigil-class is wonderful. It fills a role that even the Acclamator cannot fill, and still retains the look and feel of an Imperial Ship that Kuat have given us. Did I mention it looks badass? I will *happily* buy one and fly a squad of TIE's alongside it. Happily. I can feel the hole burning in my bank account as we speak!
In fact, I think I might build one.
TLDR; Bro, do you even Star Wars?
Edited by Rhinoviru3It looks exactly like it was intended to look IMO. Like someone wanted to make a small ship that still looked like an ISD.I don't think anyone would confuse it for an ISD. But anyone who would buy it would either know what it is, come here and ask, or look it up themselves.What gets me is people trying to argue that the Vigil won't work for "aesthetic" reasons, but has no issue with an ISD that is so clearly 1/10th is proper size sitting next to a CR-90.Oh, the Vigil looks like something from a Stars Wars ripoff.
If FFG ever comes out and says, we tried, we couldn't make it work right I'll accept that. But until then, they're keeping quiet on denying it for a reason. And it's not to keep debates like this on their forums. It's because they know the potential behind the concept, and are trying to make it work. Seriously people, like everything in life, look at why something would be amazing, not why it could be bad and immediatley say no.
There is a happy compromise that I saw yesterday.
That's just it, the Vigil is already a good comprise, but for some people unless it's a ISD it's not good enough.
I agree 100% X infinity but then I'm not the one getting into s strop. You'll find a massive list of ships on one of my topics and the Vigil takes pride of place among them.
Anyhoo,
400 meter Imperial Ship with a Star Destroyer look: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_II-class_frigate
Can't find the other one...yet
If scale doesn't matter, why not ask for a Death Star model on the table.
And this is a logical falacy, and ignores the point entirely. Exaggurating an argument to mock it is rude.
It's not a logical fallacy at all, and it directly incorporates your point.
Here's the main argument against Star Destroyers in X-wing Minis:
(1) FFG wants to keep the game at least approximately in scale.
(2) Star Destroyers can't be incorporated into the game without sacrificing the game's scale.
(3) As a result of (1) and (2), FFG is unlikely to publish a Star Destroyer for the game.
Your response is to argue that scale isn't important--that it's based purely on fluff, which doesn't matter. And if that's true, then there is literally no unit in the entire Star Wars universe that won't fit in the game. Why not a zero-gee spacetrooper the size and power of an A-wing? Why not the Death Star?
What you don't like is that the reductio ad absurdum reveals that you're engaged in special pleading: scale is important, but you're willing to make an exception in the case of a Star Destroyer because they're so cool and iconic and great. The only difference between you and the people you're arguing with is that we're making exactly one exception fewer.
2 feet long versus 11 inches isn't insignificant. Yes, it isn't to scale, but neither the Transport or Corvetter are to scale with eachother either. And they follow a pretty clever curve that fits the Star Destroyer. Beyond that, as I've said, i care about how it feels, not the numbers. If it plays as the biggest baddest thing on the map, controls the map, and becomes the focus of the game, and looks as amazing as a Star Destroyer it works. There is a whole lot of Psychology behind the design of the Star Destroyer that the Vigil just doesn't and can never have.
That does not look like a Star destroyer. It looks like somebody made something designed around the idea of a Star Destroyer. That is just not enough.
Without the elevated command center the whole thing just looks incomplete and squashed. The angles are too shallow. There are a million reasons it just is not, and will never be, an acceptable halfway gesture. It looks like something you would see in a Star Wars Ripoff.
Oh, the Vigil looks like something from a Stars Wars ripoff. But a "look, I'm a little bigger than a CR-90" ISD would be "authentic".
Try not to make our arguments for us man.
If it's 2 feet long that is more than halfway across an epic scale map. How big do you think they can make the epic scale map to accommodate something that big?
But guys, FFG has already tipped their hand at having an ISD in the game!
Look at this picture from the new Tournament Rules - that's CLEARLY an Imperial Star Destroyer in the background!!! ALSO seen behind the TIE Bomber in this expansion pack!!!
Oh god! Oh god! Oh god! Look what I found behind the TIE Interceptor: the DEATH STAR itself!!!
MY PREDICTIONS FOR WAVE 5:
Oh dear god, FFG please don't actually do this...
- IMPERIAL STAR DESTROYER
- DEATH STAR
That. Was. Awesome.
Seriously, the game does not need an ISD. Watching A New Hope should be all the reason needed. I'd be willing to buy a mat that showed a section of an ISD, so you could fight a battle over one. Attempting to fit an ISD into the game would require too many shenanigans.
It won't work as a substitute. There are things only a Star Destoyer can bring to this game. Amazing, fun to play things.
There is nothing in your list of things that a Vigil can't do.
I suggest you take your own advice about the vigil, yet you are soooo closed minded to anything that isn't a ISD you can't even see how ridiculous and illogical your own arguments are. The only problem with a Vigil is completely a matter of opinion on your part.
An Opinion I'll point out that next to no one seems to share. Even those who want a ISD, most would be quite happy with the Vigil or something similar.
Edited by VanorDMIf scale doesn't matter, why not ask for a Death Star model on the table.
And this is a logical falacy, and ignores the point entirely. Exaggurating an argument to mock it is rude.
It's not a logical fallacy at all, and it directly incorporates your point.
Here's the main argument against Star Destroyers in X-wing Minis:
(1) FFG wants to keep the game at least approximately in scale.
(2) Star Destroyers can't be incorporated into the game without sacrificing the game's scale.
(3) As a result of (1) and (2), FFG is unlikely to publish a Star Destroyer for the game.
Your response is to argue that scale isn't important--that it's based purely on fluff, which doesn't matter. And if that's true, then there is literally no unit in the entire Star Wars universe that won't fit in the game. Why not a zero-gee spacetrooper the size and power of an A-wing? Why not the Death Star?
What you don't like is that the reductio ad absurdum reveals that you're engaged in special pleading: scale is important, but you're willing to make an exception in the case of a Star Destroyer because they're so cool and iconic and great. The only difference between you and the people you're arguing with is that we're making exactly one exception fewer.
It won't work as a substitute. There are things only a Star Destoyer can bring to this game.
[...]
There is so much that can be gained with a Star Destroyer that the Vigil just cannot do.
[...]
It cannot create the kind of tactical feel a Star Destroyer can.
What exactly could a Star Destroyer do that another ship couldn't?
Take the mechanics you would give the Star Destroyer and drop them on the Vigil - problem solved?
And I think the idea of a 300 point ship is ridiculous... It's a "dog fighting game", not a "let's-each-place-1-ship-in-our-corner-of-the-map-then-roll-dice-to-see-who-wins game".
How is a legitimate question about your position a straw man? Up to that point there was no argument made that couldn't also be used for a Death Star model.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vigil-class_corvette?file=Vigil-class_corvette_%2528Fractalsponge%2529.jpg
Even if they do make an ISD, I still want one of these. It looks cool as hell and it is fitting to the scale.
This is DOGFIGHT game, NOT a fleet battle game. Maybe, as some have said, down the road, there might be a fleet battle game, and it would probably be cool, but please keep the game on its current course, no need to go GRANDE or go home, plenty to do currently in the game and Meta.
What you don't like is that the reductio ad absurdum reveals that you're engaged in special pleading: scale is important...
Myself I'd prefer it that they had kept the 1/270 scale for the Vette and Transport. That would of made the CR-90 about 20 inches long, and would of increased the price, which I would of paid... But I understand why they did what they did.
But just because most of us are willing to accept the new scale, that doesn't mean most of us are willing to accept such an extreme violation of the scale of the game.
A 12 inch CR-90 is a bit out of scale, but isn't glaring. A 2 foot ISD on the other hand is so much more obvious that it's approaching the slap in the face level. How could any self respecting Star Wars fan look at a table with a ISD about twice the size of a CR-90 and think that's acceptable?
It won't work as a substitute. There are things only a Star Destoyer can bring to this game.
[...]
There is so much that can be gained with a Star Destroyer that the Vigil just cannot do.
[...]
It cannot create the kind of tactical feel a Star Destroyer can.
What exactly could a Star Destroyer do that another ship couldn't?
Take the mechanics you would give the Star Destroyer and drop them on the Vigil - problem solved?
And I think the idea of a 300 point ship is ridiculous... It's a "dog fighting game", not a "let's-each-place-1-ship-in-our-corner-of-the-map-then-roll-dice-to-see-who-wins game".
A Star Destroyer can have virtually any number of Hard Points, based on what they feel is balanced. It can have multiple Tractor Beams, a Gravity well generator, and is the perfect platform to create substantial singe ship combos that boost it's efficiency. It can have a much larger energy supply than any other ship we're likely to see. It can justify my crazy, destory the tower and it can't change its dial weakness that would justify a great deal of extra firepower for its points. And again, A knock of STar Destroyer just isn't good enough. Not nearly as many will be purchased. Not nearly as many will be fielded. Even with identical stats the Star Destroyer is more iconic, and more fun just based on previous knowledge of it.
It's a form of Straw man the oversimplifies my point to make it look silly. Same as yours.
No it really isn't, what he is doing not a straw man in any way. But like every other post you make on this subject, you're so blinded by your own opinion you just can't see it.
Just like you refuse to accept that everything you say you want out of the ISD can be done with the Vigil or other ship...
