Also, influence can be used to get requisitioned dudes (say, a small stormtrooper section using the stats out of Oblivion's Edge), or to influence tactics or policy on a system/crusade front level - temporarily diverting a pair of Navy destroyers to 'fly wing' for a Deathwatch Rapid Strike Vessel, for example.

Isn't this similar to what Deathwatch RPG already offers with Renown?

Or would you be aiming at essentially shifting some perks of the Kill-team towards other characters?

The whole point of the deathwatch was that the astartes are immune (more or less) to inquisitorial authority but that the deathwatch had voluntarily sworn themselves into inquisitorial service.

You mean in FFG's vision of the setting?

The Dominica-pattern pod that the Sororitas Strike Force used specifically talked about lower velocities than the astartes version

Where? The only description that I've ever read (in the Citadel Journal) stated it's a variant of the Astartes Deathwind, without (with exception of the weapons loadout for the gun version) saying what actually would be different (and I'd assume "nothing", aside from livery, and having its suspension mountings adjusted for "smaller" people).

You can drop an Inquisitor with a Space Marine entourage in the tabletop without issue. I don't see why you couldn't replicate this in the RPG. Even if we are to assume that normal humans are somehow unable to bear with the physical stress of one of those vaunted Astartes drop pods because someone decided that "puny mortals" need to suck more, what's stopping the Kill-team from using a "Civilian Drop Pod"?

On a sidenote, I'm just going to reinforce that we are talking about a civilisation that is capable of manipulating gravitational forces, and a Kill-team that can slap anti-grav devices on their guns.

Additional nitpick: That deceleration quote strikes me not only as somewhat unsound, given the in-universe science, but also as internally inconsistent. It's more probable that whoever wrote that line did not yet know that any sort of drop pod would be made available in RT, rather than a minimal difference in velocity and subsequent deceleration.

Hardly. An inquisitor is hardly going to spend the 3/4 of an hour putting on terminator warplate to walk into a formal dinner. Well, not unless he really wants to make an entrance, anyway... plus, the armour itself is actually better in some respects than astartes stuff - it has some daemonic protection built in that's more akin to Grey Knight armour than anything the deathwatch would wear...

Actually, that was just a lame joke about, as per the Dark Heresy core rulebook, any weapon not carried by a Space Marine is a "civilian version", so as to explain the different damage profiles. And since the Malleus Terminator armour has less AP than the Space Marine version...

Because obviously , what kind of pilot sits inside totally affects the carrying capacity of the suit, so it is apparently incapable of mounting similarly thick armoured plates.

And isn't the Grey Knight armour also "Astartes stuff"? True, you could argue that GKs only bother with daemons and that the DW only bothers with aliens, but as the DW RPG tells us, this isn't true for the RPG. Also, it might be debatable whether the Inquisitor that hangs around with a DW Kill-team would be from the Ordo Malleus rather than the Ordo Xenos. If you make Malleus gear available to the Inquisitor, then you can (in theory) also give it to the Deathwatch.

I have to disagree with giving a PC Inquisitor DW weapons, though- I think that would eat in to the SM players' strength. In a mixed party, the SMs are the 'muscle' and the Inquisitor should be the 'brains', not 'also muscle, with a bunch of other benefits'.

Mhmm. How would the Inquisitor qualify as "muscle" if he lacks the Space Marines' Unnaturals? He is not on the same footing when it comes to either melee combat or taking hits. Is it really wrong for the player to have fun in fights, too, by leaving him a single area where he or she can at least feel just as useful? The character will still be squishy, and I think this would influence combat sufficiently to preserve the Marines' speciality.

I dunno, I just don't think an Inquisitorial advisor should be in the business of 'de-Magnituding' Hordes. But that's just me...

Now another question remains that has me thinking:

Can an Astartes become an Inquistor?

The reason why i ask this is because i think it would be cool as a background thing where a lost Astartes is found and assigned to an Inquisitor for retraining and to keep his origins a secret and his knowledge would prove useful to the Inquisition.

As others have said, it's not a good idea. However ... there is precedent for Inquisitors bestowing their Rosette (and the authority that goes with it) to trusted individuals. If you had a wide-ranging investigation in mind for the core of your campaign, a DW Marine armed with a Rosette given him by a dying Inquisitor who charges him with rooting out a conspiracy within the Ordo could make for an interesting game.

I dunno, I just don't think an Inquisitorial advisor should be in the business of 'de-Magnituding' Hordes. But that's just me...

I can understand the argument. I don't particularly like how Hordes work, and don't subscribe to the "Rawr Epic!" way of thinking that cemented their inclusion as a gameplay element. That's just a matter of taste/preferences, though. In essence, I'm approaching the subject from a different angle - that of an Inquisitor having the right to the same quality of wargear, thus conferring an opportunity to under some circumstances be an equally valuable asset in combat.

You mentioned in a previous post the ability to "affect key encounters", which is where we seem to agree. I just don't think the rules as they are would allow to make a character be good against individual targets but suck against Hordes - or at least not in a different way than you would already have with the Astartes gear the book offers by default.

That being said, DW Marines do get a ton of Talents to maximise damage versus Hordes. Off the top of my hat, I recall stuff like Assault Marines doing an extra d10 of Magnitude damage and stuff like that.

As others have said, it's not a good idea. However ... there is precedent for Inquisitors bestowing their Rosette (and the authority that goes with it) to trusted individuals.

The irony is that if Deathwatch would actually follow GW's original fluff (as far as the relationship with the Inquisition is concerned), the leader of the Kill-team would actually have full Inquisitorial authority as they act as proxies for the Ordo Xenos...

"In battle, each team normally comes under the authority of an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, but in some exceptional cases, a Deathwatch Captain or Librarian may assume command if circumstances dictate. Their authority is absolute and none dare question their word. The commander of a Deathwatch detachment may freely requisition forces and equipment without a word of complaint being raised against him."

I am increasingly of the opinion that FFG fluff is borked. Of course, I say the same thing about the way GW is changing a lot of fluff, so I'll just go neckbeard it up somewhere.

On a related sidenote: Lynata, I seem to recall there being references to the drop pods used in RT being slower than Astartes versions, with gentler accel/decel profiles so as not to squish the silly humans inside trying to pretend to be Astartes- but I can't seem to find the page reference. ItS says they've been modified, but that's all.

I believe I recall similar references mentioned in Elysian Drop troop stuff, but my copy of the Taros campaign is presently packed away. It's brought up as explanation for the Elysian's using grav-chutes rather than drop pods.

You can still deep-strike inquisitors and stormtroopers in the tabletop because A) for a long time they just glossed over the Valkyrie flyover and they might have paradropped/gravchuted in B) we're talking about the Inquisition, who might easily have drop pods with extra bonus inertial compensation archeotech or something, jeez.

True. By the same token, however, it also does not mean that they do not work as equals to one another - in fact, that would seem to be the more likely outcome, and that it might not be so is merely a theory you propose.

I am merely saying that there is a lot of wiggle room. And that you can't claim that FFG has definitely made Inquisitors and KT Marines equals. You know, I also still think there is a lot of difference between chapters. I think an Assault Marine from a codex-compliant chapter with lesser reputation might tend to be more obedient than, say, a White Scar Stormseer.

The irony is that if Deathwatch would actually follow GW's original fluff (as far as the relationship with the Inquisition is concerned), the leader of the Kill-team would actually have full Inquisitorial authority as they act as proxies for the Ordo Xenos...

"In battle, each team normally comes under the authority of an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, but in some exceptional cases, a Deathwatch Captain or Librarian may assume command if circumstances dictate. Their authority is absolute and none dare question their word. The commander of a Deathwatch detachment may freely requisition forces and equipment without a word of complaint being raised against him."

Again, I think the difference is to a degree virtual only. You have a group of Astartes before you with the dreaded =I= on their armour. Are you really going to be treating their requests any different from an Inquisitors? Or someone with an inquisitorial rosette? Even if in that moment did not have the mandate to blast you, they have direct access and presumably influence on an inquisitor who does? Anybody will think thrice to say no.

That said, it makes for better gaming if the KT has to requisition assets. Leaving reserve requisition and all that. Enforces strategic mission planning. It's just not very pseudo-realistic.

As for Inquisitors, I think they go to battle only rarely but then it's on. They need to assist a group of Astartes? Well, they know 80% of all gear from all 40K Roleplay books and they can get their hands on most of it. Think about what that means. You can be sure they will be dressed to the occasion.

Alex

On a related sidenote: Lynata, I seem to recall there being references to the drop pods used in RT being slower than Astartes versions, with gentler accel/decel profiles so as not to squish the silly humans inside trying to pretend to be Astartes- but I can't seem to find the page reference. ItS says they've been modified, but that's all.

It's alright, I believe you anyways - it fits to the "pattern" I've witnessed whenever the writers have touched anything that is used by both Space Marines and ordinary humans. Apparently there's some sort of law that the former must always be better. Up to and including the promethium used in Astartes flamethrowers or the gas in Astartes plasma weapons. It's a miracle their Rhinos don't drive any faster, too.

I just have a habit of pointing out that this is merely one way of looking at the setting, and that it's not supported by the original source material. So if anyone has problems with this gap - be it because they don't like the fluff, or because they believe it imbalances crossover games - there's no reason to preserve it.

I am merely saying that there is a lot of wiggle room. And that you can't claim that FFG has definitely made Inquisitors and KT Marines equals. You know, I also still think there is a lot of difference between chapters. I think an Assault Marine from a codex-compliant chapter with lesser reputation might tend to be more obedient than, say, a White Scar Stormseer.

Why not? It's what it says right in the book. You cannot claim it is otherwise, as your interpretation is relying on additional conditions not mentioned by the material.

And yes, of course there would be a difference between Chapters. This has nothing to do with obedience, though, but simply with accepting suggestions and good ideas.

Again, I think the difference is to a degree virtual only. You have a group of Astartes before you with the dreaded =I= on their armour. Are you really going to be treating their requests any different from an Inquisitors? Or someone with an inquisitorial rosette? Even if in that moment did not have the mandate to blast you, they have direct access and presumably influence on an inquisitor who does? Anybody will think thrice to say no.

That's a good point - though you are mixing up cause and effect here. Just because an Inquisitor and a Deathwatch Marine would receive equal support does not mean they actually have equal authority. You could pose the same question and replace both characters with a Commissar and a Captain of the Imperial Guard.

But as you correctly pointed out, the Deathwatch RPG does come with a system for requisitioning Imperial assets, so the game designers have essentially elevated the DW to a level where it can command the same kind of support, entirely independent of the Inquisition.

An interesting question would be what happens when an Inquisitor demands one thing and the Deathwatch Captain demands the opposite. How would the target of these demands react?

On a sidenote: I also agree that it was a weird oversight to keep the "classic" Deathwatch insignia in the books' artwork, instead of replacing the Inquisitorial part with something more space-marine'ish. Like, say, a set of wings.

Unless this is supposed to signify some sort of support from the Inquisition that might also extend to authority over other Imperial assets, as if the Ordo Xenos would basically "outsource" a part of its duties and privileges to the Space Marines. Might be a way to explain/excuse a few things, though it should probably be pointed out in the fluff so as to avoid unnecessary confusion.

Why not? It's what it says right in the book. You cannot claim it is otherwise, as your interpretation is relying on additional conditions not mentioned by the material.

And yes, of course there would be a difference between Chapters. This has nothing to do with obedience, though, but simply with accepting suggestions and good ideas.

The book says that the organization works as partners. If you say that makes Inquisitors and KT Marines equals, that is your interpretation. It's not what the book says.

And it has to do with reputation. A First Founding chapter has a different reputation and usually more influence than the chapter Run-of-the-Mills which nobody has ever heard of.

That's a good point - though you are mixing up cause and effect here. Just because an Inquisitor and a Deathwatch Marine would receive equal support does not mean they actually have equal authority. You could pose the same question and replace both characters with a Commissar and a Captain of the Imperial Guard.

But as you correctly pointed out, the Deathwatch RPG does come with a system for requisitioning Imperial assets, so the game designers have essentially elevated the DW to a level where it can command the same kind of support, entirely independent of the Inquisition.

An interesting question would be what happens when an Inquisitor demands one thing and the Deathwatch Captain demands the opposite. How would the target of these demands react?

On a sidenote: I also agree that it was a weird oversight to keep the "classic" Deathwatch insignia in the books' artwork, instead of replacing the Inquisitorial part with something more space-marine'ish. Like, say, a set of wings.

Unless this is supposed to signify some sort of support from the Inquisition that might also extend to authority over other Imperial assets, as if the Ordo Xenos would basically "outsource" a part of its duties and privileges to the Space Marines. Might be a way to explain/excuse a few things, though it should probably be pointed out in the fluff so as to avoid unnecessary confusion.

RoB points it out under its asset requisitioning rules. in particular ‘In the Name of the God-Emperor...’ The mechanic is highly debatable but the implication is clear: a KT has partial inquisitorial authority. The deal regarding the DW is clear: we send you a bunch of our finest marines and have them become dedicated anti-xenos specialists you can call on for support at short notice; in return, we operate with a partial mandate.

Really, the only difference to other chamber militants is that the Inq cannot order around nilly-willy but that he/she has to ask. A request which will be complied with in 99% of cases. Now there might be a difference in that the DW doesn't make for a good 'blind tool' for a Xanthite Inquisitor, I'll grant you that... but otherwise? Seems more like difference in tone than anything else.

Alex

The book says that the organization works as partners. If you say that makes Inquisitors and KT Marines equals, that is your interpretation. It's not what the book says.

On the contrary. An Inquisitor's authority is based entirely on his or her organisation having a mandate to command others. If this mandate does not apply to the Deathwatch, then by what right would the Inquisitor have any means to force a DW Marine to do anything they don't agree with?

Your interpretation relies on an additional condition that's not pointed out by the core rulebook's description. Can you back it up with a quote from another official product? An adventure maybe?

And it has to do with reputation. A First Founding chapter has a different reputation and usually more influence than the chapter Run-of-the-Mills which nobody has ever heard of.

The Chapter these Marines belong to is called "Deathwatch". Where a Marine served previously may influence his way of thinking and reacting, but it does not change anything about their reputation when serving as a DW Marine.

Really, the only difference to other chamber militants is that the Inq cannot order around nilly-willy but that he/she has to ask. A request which will be complied with in 99% of cases.

Apart from that quota being a matter of debate even in general, it will depend both on the individual Space Marine receiving this request, as well as the nature of the request itself. There will be instances where the chance to have it followed might decrease to something between 1 and 0 percent, and depending on the plot this could make a huge difference to the campaign.

Note that I agree about it mostly being about tone in most cases. It's still an important difference when it is not, though.

Oh, and the players of course. From what I've read on the forums, some actually would say "no" simply because that Inquisitor is an Inquisitor, and they think the Inquisition sucks.

The book says that the organization works as partners. If you say that makes Inquisitors and KT Marines equals, that is your interpretation. It's not what the book says.

On the contrary. An Inquisitor's authority is based entirely on his or her organisation having a mandate to command others. If this mandate does not apply to the Deathwatch, then by what right would the Inquisitor have any means to force a DW Marine to do anything they don't agree with?

Your interpretation relies on an additional condition that's not pointed out by the core rulebook's description. Can you back it up with a quote from another official product? An adventure maybe?

If company A and company B form a joint venture, will then a mid-level (or even low-level) manager from company A be the equal of a member of the board of directors of company B?

In short: DW Core defines the relationship of two organizations. It does not define (at least in that passage) the relationship between various members of the two organizations. Also, the circumstance that normally their status comes from their authority does not imply it has to be the same here.

As I interpret it, they are not equals because a vital part of the DW's mission is to assist OX Inquisitors. Inquisitors are primarily partners with Watch Commanders and Watch Captains and their relationship with a KT comes through those, as a KT is formed of subordinates of their partners.

The Chapter these Marines belong to is called "Deathwatch". Where a Marine served previously may influence his way of thinking and reacting, but it does not change anything about their reputation when serving as a DW Marine.

The Favoured Son Ultramarine Solo Mode is bound to disagree with you.

Apart from that quota being a matter of debate even in general, it will depend both on the individual Space Marine receiving this request, as well as the nature of the request itself. There will be instances where the chance to have it followed might decrease to something between 1 and 0 percent, and depending on the plot this could make a huge difference to the campaign.

Note that I agree about it mostly being about tone in most cases. It's still an important difference when it is not, though.

Oh, and the players of course. From what I've read on the forums, some actually would say "no" simply because that Inquisitor is an Inquisitor, and they think the Inquisition sucks.

What are they doing in the Deathwatch?

Ah, come on, it could make for interesting/fun situations, so I might allow it as a GM... but such a PC should be more rare.

And seriously? In 80% of the cases in which a marine would waste an Inquisitor who has no command over him, they would also waste the guy if they were working under his command. Because that should usually be only the case when he's gone.... Xanthite or beyond!

Alex

"Civilian armour/bolters/whatever" is old Inquisitors Handbook terminology and people should stop harping on it. It's irritating as crap and betrays a strange fixation .

If company A and company B form a joint venture, will then a mid-level (or even low-level) manager from company A be the equal of a member of the board of directors of company B?

Apparently yes, because joint ventures include the forming of a new entity with a new hierarchy - the sponsoring companies (which includes their managers and members of the board of directors) will remain independent and merely share/contribute resources to the new enterprise. Staff of one company does not suddenly gain the power to interfere with its partner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_venture#Company_incorporation

You've chosen a bad example. In the real world, staff of different, unrelated companies is equal (in that they have no power over one another) even when they do not form a joint venture. In 40k, an Inquisitor has authority over anyone . At least in GW's vision of the setting.

In short: DW Core defines the relationship of two organizations. It does not define (at least in that passage) the relationship between various members of the two organizations. Also, the circumstance that normally their status comes from their authority does not imply it has to be the same here.

As I interpret it, they are not equals because a vital part of the DW's mission is to assist OX Inquisitors. Inquisitors are primarily partners with Watch Commanders and Watch Captains and their relationship with a KT comes through those, as a KT is formed of subordinates of their partners.

I can't follow your interpretation. If members of one organisation actually had power over members of the other, how could the organisations themselves possibly be regarded as equals?

Also:

"The Inquisitor is more of an ambassador than an overseer, and has no direct control over the Watch Commander or his forces ."

- p.308

The Favoured Son Ultramarine Solo Mode is bound to disagree with you.

Nope, that seems to be your interpretation again. Re-rolling Fellowship Tests has little to do with whether or not the character has any more authority over his counterparts than anyone else.

- When the Ultramarine can do a Fellowship Test, then so could anyone else.

- If the Ultramarine had this authority, he would not have to roll a Test.

What "Favoured Son" represents is, as the book says, the character's "pride and unshakable personal belief". But simply believing you have a right to command someone does not make it any more (or less) true.

What are they doing in the Deathwatch?

Don't ask me. I've seen a lot of weird characters in the forums.

"Civilian armour/bolters/whatever" is old Inquisitors Handbook terminology and people should stop harping on it. It's irritating as crap and betrays a strange fixation .

Why should I stop? It's so very easy to pick on - and it is, so far, the only official explanation we have as to why the equipment profiles are so absurdly different.

But I can understand if this criticism makes some people uncomfortable, as I believe it exposes how weak the reason for this gap is.

Apparently yes, because joint ventures include the forming of a new entity with a new hierarchy - the sponsoring companies (which includes their managers and members of the board of directors) will remain independent and merely share/contribute resources to the new enterprise. Staff of one company does not suddenly gain the power to interfere with its partner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_venture#Company_incorporation

You've chosen a bad example. In the real world, staff of different, unrelated companies is equal (in that they have no power over one another) even when they do not form a joint venture. In 40k, an Inquisitor has authority over anyone . At least in GW's vision of the setting.

My my, don't be so literal please. If a joint venture was formed and a new hierarchy introduced, then the CxO of company B would still not be under the thumb of the Assistant Manager of Complaint Handling of Company A.

My whole point was that if two organizations are partners it says NOTHING about the relationship between random members of the parties involved. It does mean that equal levels of the two parties are equals .

I can't follow your interpretation. If members of one organisation actually had power over members of the other, how could the organisations themselves possibly be regarded as equals?

Seriously? Think about it.

Also:

"The Inquisitor is more of an ambassador than an overseer, and has no direct control over the Watch Commander or his forces."

- p.308

The Favoured Son Ultramarine Solo Mode is bound to disagree with you.

Nope, that seems to be your interpretation again.

Nope, that is you misreading things.

Re-rolling Fellowship Tests has little to do with whether or not the character has any more authority over his counterparts than anyone else.

- When the Ultramarine can do a Fellowship Test, then so could anyone else.

- If the Ultramarine had this authority, he would not have to roll a Test.

What "Favoured Son" represents is, as the book says, the character's "pride and unshakable personal belief". But simply believing you have a right to command someone does not make it any more (or less) true.

I didn't talk about authority though, you are injecting that here. I said previously:

"And it has to do with reputation. A First Founding chapter has a different reputation and usually more influence than the chapter Run-of-the-Mills which nobody has ever heard of."

I could also mention the Blood Angels who are represented more than any other chapter in chapels across the Imperium. If you think that should have no psychological effect on both the Blood Angels as well as those dealing with them, I say you should think again.

Alex

My my, don't be so literal please. If a joint venture was formed and a new hierarchy introduced, then the CxO of company B would still not be under the thumb of the Assistant Manager of Complaint Handling of Company A.

I just don't see what you are attempting to express with this example? As I said, whether or not the companies do a joint venture changes absolutely nothing on how staff of both companies deal with each other.

This does not apply to the context of this issue at all - if one of the companies in your example was an Inquisitor, then they'd have authority over the other party regardless whether or not they'd do a joint venture.

My whole point was that if two organizations are partners it says NOTHING about the relationship between random members of the parties involved. It does mean that equal levels of the two parties are equals .

Again, you are missing the point. If the book says that "neither party is subject to the command of the other" (p. 305), then a random Inquisitor cannot just show up and "steal" a Kill-team by claiming authority. Doing so would undermine and erode the Deathwatch's independence - its equality.

Even by your interpretation it doesn't make sense. When a Kill-team is operating under orders of their Watch Captain (meaning: every single time they are dispatched on a mission, so: always), what exactly is supposed to happen if an "equal level" of authority in the Inquisition shows up and countermands those orders?

"The Inquisitor is more of an ambassador than an overseer, and has no direct control over the Watch Commander or his forces."

- p.308

And you accuse me of being literal?

Elaborate what you consider " in direct control" then, please.

Nope, that is you misreading things.

I didn't talk about authority though, you are injecting that here. I said previously:

"And it has to do with reputation. A First Founding chapter has a different reputation and usually more influence than the chapter Run-of-the-Mills which nobody has ever heard of."

If you didn't talk about authority, why did you bring it up at all?

This debate is about one person being able to command another, not someone voluntarily deciding to agree.

And I'm not misreading things. The book specifically points out that the effect of this Ability is based on the Ultramarine's way of thinking. In case the partial quote was not enough, I'll repeat the full description:

"The Ultramarines consider themselves a pure expression of the Codex Astartes and among the truest of the Emperor's sons. This pride and unshakable personal belief often manifests itself in their leadership abilities and the example they set to other members of the Adeptus Astartes."

He doesn't even get a bonus to the Test, he's just stubborn enough to try again. Also, what kind of bonus does a Space Wolf get to their reputation? A Blood Angel? Do they have similar Talents, given that they are from First Founding Chapters as well? According to you, they should have a similar Ability.

Actually, I'm not even disagreeing with a Chapter's reputation being able to influence its dealings with others. After all, this has been mentioned in GW fluff countless of times. However, you are missing a few important things:

- this does not seem to be represented in the DW RPG (perhaps for one or both of the following points)

- if confronted by a DW Marine, are random acquaintances more likely to see a, say, Blood Angel, or simply a Deathwatch Marine, because this makes up 90% of their visual appearance and 100% of their temporary allegiance?

- should a Chapter's reputation truly be known to everyone in the Imperium, or only to those individuals who have actively interacted with, been told about, or researched its history? (probably a much, much smaller number)

But again, this sub-debate is useless, because we were talking about authority and commands, not voluntary subordination.

Speaking of sub-debates, don't we already have an "ak-73 VS. Lynata thread?" It's like watching an Orange and a Green in Ireland of the 1920's. Hopefully without the bombings and drive-bys.

Hahaha, I was thinking the same thing, dude.

My my, don't be so literal please. If a joint venture was formed and a new hierarchy introduced, then the CxO of company B would still not be under the thumb of the Assistant Manager of Complaint Handling of Company A.

I just don't see what you are attempting to express with this example? As I said, whether or not the companies do a joint venture changes absolutely nothing on how staff of both companies deal with each other.

This does not apply to the context of this issue at all - if one of the companies in your example was an Inquisitor, then they'd have authority over the other party regardless whether or not they'd do a joint venture.

Okay, very simple. Organization A is a partner of organization B is a statement about organizations. Not about members of organizations. If you claim that this makes Inquisitors and KT members equals, the burden of proof is on you.

Again, you are missing the point. If the book says that "neither party is subject to the command of the other" (p. 305), then a random Inquisitor cannot just show up and "steal" a Kill-team by claiming authority. Doing so would undermine and erode the Deathwatch's independence - its equality.

Whereas, if the KT was on a mission under order by an Inquisitor, another Inquisitor cannot just show up and "steal" the KT by claiming authority because they are already "taken".

Even by your interpretation it doesn't make sense. When a Kill-team is operating under orders of their Watch Captain (meaning: every single time they are dispatched on a mission, so: always), what exactly is supposed to happen if an "equal level" of authority in the Inquisition shows up and countermands those orders?

The same thing as if they were under inquisitorial command. Either "Yes, we think we can manage to look into it" or "No, Inquisitor X, we have our orders and we cannot compromise our original mission."

Elaborate what you consider " in direct control" then, please.

Soft power. An inquisitorial request cannot be simply brushed aside by a Watch Commander, not unless it's obviously heretical or damaging to the mission. The nature of partnership and the support role of the chamber militant mandates that a Watch Commander should have very good reasons for denying a request. These are fringe cases. Normally there will be accord/comromise. Or appealing to a higher authority for arbitration.

If you didn't talk about authority, why did you bring it up at all?

This debate is about one person being able to command another, not someone voluntarily deciding to agree.

And I'm not misreading things. The book specifically points out that the effect of this Ability is based on the Ultramarine's way of thinking. In case the partial quote was not enough, I'll repeat the full description:

"The Ultramarines consider themselves a pure expression of the Codex Astartes and among the truest of the Emperor's sons. This pride and unshakable personal belief often manifests itself in their leadership abilities and the example they set to other members of the Adeptus Astartes."

He doesn't even get a bonus to the Test, he's just stubborn enough to try again. Also, what kind of bonus does a Space Wolf get to their reputation? A Blood Angel? Do they have similar Talents, given that they are from First Founding Chapters as well? According to you, they should have a similar Ability.

Of course they don't. Deathwatch isn't a simulationist game, you know that as well, so the questions are moot.

Why again does it only extend to members of Imperial forces? Not to any imperial citizen or just any NPC? Surely some xenos might also be impressed by that much confidence!

Actually, I'm not even disagreeing with a Chapter's reputation being able to influence its dealings with others. After all, this has been mentioned in GW fluff countless of times. However, you are missing a few important things:

- this does not seem to be represented in the DW RPG (perhaps for one or both of the following points)

- if confronted by a DW Marine, are random acquaintances more likely to see a, say, Blood Angel, or simply a Deathwatch Marine, because this makes up 90% of their visual appearance and 100% of their temporary allegiance?

- should a Chapter's reputation truly be known to everyone in the Imperium, or only to those individuals who have actively interacted with, been told about, or researched its history? (probably a much, much smaller number)

But again, this sub-debate is useless, because we were talking about authority and commands, not voluntary subordination.

I can tell you what an NPC sees in my game (in order of familiarity, more or less):

A. A bunch of Astartes.

B. Signs of the Holy Inquisition.

C. Various Chapter Shoulder Pads.

D. Deathwatch Marines.

Depending on the NPC's knowledge and the chapters, they recognize the chapter symbols or not. If some recognizes the Ultramarine sign but doesn't know what the Deathwatch is (quite a few people fall in this camp), he will think he is dealing with an Ultramarine.

As for how many people know specific chapters... that does not seem to be quite clear. Personally, I go with a medium amount of fame regarding the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Ultramarines go to the top slot once you deal with military personnel.

Alex

Conversely, I tend to assume that most people don't recognize any Astartes as being different from any other Astartes- the exceptions would be senior military personnel and senior nobility- meaning the sorts of nobility who compete for the position of High Lord of Terra, not the sorts of petty nobles who inhabit Scintilla. Most planetary governors probably don't know much about the chapters of the Astartes, either.

Bear in mind that there are still only 1000 (plus or minus) Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, so honestly I'd expect their primarchs to get more face time than their chapter heraldry- and no matter how many successors the smurfs have spawned, Random Citizen A is no more likely to recognize the chapter emblem of The Forty Third Sons Of Our Spiritual Liege Guilliman than they are to recognize the heraldry of any given Black Templar crusade or the Crimson Fists.

Specific chapters should be recognizable by someone with the Forbidden Lore (Astartes) skill. Most people don't have any forbidden lore, and of all of the Forbidden Lores to take, that one has some of the least potential use in political terms- were I an aristocrat in 40k, I'd rather have dirt on the Navis Nobilite or the Ecclesiarchy or the local Lord General.

If you're running a game based out of the Empire of Ultramar, then sure, the Ultramarines are going to be well known and celebrated where'er they shall roam, but I'd expect this to be similar on any world where a chapter maintains direct governance. On the flip side of that coin, if you're running a game out of Fenris I wouldn't expect the local citizenry to recognize an Ultramarine- they'd just wonder why the Great Wolf Hero of the Wolf Stars wasn't wearing his Wolf Wolfy Wolf.

Fair enough.

The Core says:

"Of all the thousand and more Space Marine Chapters, it is the blue-clad Ultramarines that, in the mind of the countless billions of the Emperor’s subjects, personify everything that the Adeptus Astartes stands for. [...] Across the domains of the Emperor, the Ultramarines are celebrated as heroic, virtuous, and noble defenders of Humanity, their deeds celebrated in devotional works the length and breadth of the galaxy." (page 53)

I deviate from that, as mentioned, by having them be the model Astartes for the military-inclined citizens and the Blood Angels and Space Wolves for the common man. Also, Ultras are a more local force than the Blood Angels, who operate much more heavily throughout the entire galaxy.

Alex

Care to take this outside?

Haha, 2 pages of thread derailment, nothing new here.

Sure, just want to point out that my conversation with Lynata did not keep anyone from saying something on-topic.

Alex

Speaking of sub-debates, don't we already have an "ak-73 VS. Lynata thread?" It's like watching an Orange and a Green in Ireland of the 1920's. Hopefully without the bombings and drive-bys.

You're right. Threads like these make me feel really awkward as they just don't seem to move anywhere, yet both sides are stuck in a cycle of "I'm right!", "No, I am!" and nobody wants to back down - in good part probably because we also feel we have a reputation to lose, and because even if we have already given up on the other party to adopt one's point of view (as I'm sure ak-73 and myself feel towards one another by now, which is connected to our opposing preferences as discussed in anotehr thread) we still have hopes that any other readers with an as-of-yet undecided opinion might be convinced.

It's a bad cycle, and from time to time I attempt to "trim down" the discussion to certain core aspects to at least keep it manageable, reduce time consumption for anyone involved (it's in the nature of the beast that the longer a debate lasts, the longer the replies and quotes get), and maintain an opening for the smallest common denominator: the ability to agree to disagree.

Like so:

So you're admitting that an Inquisitor has no command authority over the Kill-team. He has to hope its leader is of the opinion they may be able to follow their request , and volunteer his team for support.

" Request ". " should have a reason"

I'll just let this speak for itself.

And this is the crux of the matter. The "proof" you wanted to see. If an Inquisitor never has the power to assume command of a DW Kill-team, because the Kill-team is hierarchically part of the Deathwatch, and both organisations are equals (meaning no-one from within the Inquisition can overrule the command of the Deathwatch's leadership), then this classification extends to its members.

You came up with the example about companies doing a joint venture, and this is how it works in the real life, too - no member from company A has any authority over a member from company B just because they're partners, regardless of their internal rank. If you assume otherwise, the "burden of proof" is actually on you , because the books do not say it.

You're right. Threads like these make me feel really awkward as they just don't seem to move anywhere, yet both sides are stuck in a cycle of "I'm right!", "No, I am!" and nobody wants to back down - in good part probably because we also feel we have a reputation to lose, and because even if we have already given up on the other party to adopt one's point of view (as I'm sure ak-73 and myself feel towards one another by now, which is connected to our opposing preferences as discussed in anotehr thread) we still have hopes that any other readers with an as-of-yet undecided opinion might be convinced.

I don't think I care too hard about readers here. I don't think anyone from FFG reads these forums anymore and even if they did, they would choose their interpretation based on their our tastes. Rational argument doesn't play much into such - nor what the majority of posters here thinks.

Instead, I am merely trying to point out that in my eyes, inquisitors regularly hold indirect and/or informal authority over the KT they work with. Indirect authority works via a KT's uppers; if these are not involved, there is still informal authority via the standing and the mission of an inquisitor in the IoM. Most marines respect the status and rights of an inquisitor - it is the way the Imperium works. And because of that, while there is no direct formal authority over a KT, their indirect and/or informal authority will keep an inquisitor and KT members from being equal. An inquisitor will lead an investigation, normally. A KT leader might temporarily take over the lead in combat, if he thinks he has the superior expertise. A wise inquisitor probably won't object.

" Request ". " should have a reason"

I'll just let this speak for itself.

And this is the crux of the matter. The "proof" you wanted to see. If an Inquisitor never has the power to assume command of a DW Kill-team, because the Kill-team is hierarchically part of the Deathwatch, and both organisations are equals (meaning no-one from within the Inquisition can overrule the command of the Deathwatch's leadership), then this classification extends to its members.

Nope. Don't see it. As I read it, Inquisitors and Watch Commanders/Captains operate on roundabout the same level. Negotiating about mission requests as equals/partners. Which means the KT itself is only involved in the decision if either party wants it.

If they have the Watch Captain's sanction, Inquisitors adopt formal command of a KT. If they don't, they still have informal authority over a KT - the difference more or less boiling down to tone. No orders but requests instead. A wise Inquisitor will probably resort to requests when having formal authority via the Watch Captain too.

Alex

PS I never questioned that Inquisitors hold no direct and formal authority over a DW Kill-Team. Right?

Indirect authority works via a KT's uppers; if these are not involved, there is still informal authority via the standing and the mission of an inquisitor in the IoM.

That doesn't add up with your previous arguments, nor how it's presented in the book, though.

If an Inquisitor also has no authority over the KT's uppers (which you claimed was how the rulebook's core should be interpreted), then he also does not have an "indirect authority" over the Kill-team. Likewise for the "standing and mission of an Inquisitor in the IoM", as again, this is cancelled out by the rulebook's claims that the "standing and mission of the Deathwatch" are equal.

If you just want to claim that an Inquisitor has a better chance of his requests being followed simply because they are allies, then we are in agreement. But I was under the impression that this is what you were contesting.

PS I never questioned that Inquisitors hold no direct and formal authority over a DW Kill-Team. Right?

Then again, I do still contest that an Inquisitor has "indirect" and "informal" authority over a Kill-team, too, for the reasons I've mentioned at the start of this post.

There is no "authority" here. The Inquisitor may ask and hope that the DW Marine agrees. That's it.

Disregarding the argument - obviously the level of authority in your game that the inquisitor is allowed over the kill team is something to be agreed pre-game by the GM.

I would advise 'mature and sensible allies' - bear in mind that there will still need to be a nominated kill-team leader who isn't the inquisitor or the whole cohesion mechanic doesn't work.

For example, something akin to "You may have overall authority here, Inqusitor, but the military aspects of this mission fall under my jurisdiction" - a quote from our last mission.

A non-astartes character does work. You just need to suitably allow for them in mission scope, challenges and threats, as well as the level of influence an inquisitor can call upon. Yes, I know reserve requisition can be used to call in an orbital strike, or whatever, but an inquisitor who pulls out all the stops can divert a full capital ship squadron to asist if he or she puts their mind to it; you're more looking at rogue trader-level large scale combat with the Astartes providing tactical advice and the kill-team fighting the 'turning point' engagements.

Also, re 'civilian terminator armour' - one good thing about Daemon Hunter is that Malleus Terminator Plate is in no way inferior to the astartes version, one of the only times this is the case. In fact, since stuff commissioned via influence is always best-quality, if anything it's better, even if the guy inside is squishier. Daemon Hunter is to my mind one of the better DH supplements.