Your suggested fighter has 3 Attack, no boost, and a dial similar to the TIE Advanced. In what way is it more like an A-wing than like an X-wing?.

Same upgrades, same ps, same actions (with the awing having boost and evade), all stats are the same except atk (1 less on awing), same manuever (both go to 5) except less green maneuvers an 1 turn instead of banks, and 1 less k turn and most importantly same price point which is the point of the debate.It's abundantly clear your avoiding the comparison because it completely conflicts with your point by comparing it to ships completely different in not only roles but in every other category. Seriously the defender? Why not just compare it to the falcon?

Okay, let's compare to the A-wing. Your proposed fighter loses boost but gains barrel roll, which is an even trade or even a good one for your Avenger. It has the same upgrade bar as the A-wing (or, rather, a better bar than the 15-point post-Refit A-wing). Your proposed fighter goes from an A-wing-like dial to an X-wing-like dial. It gains +1 Attack.To sum up, then, in comparison to a 15-point Prototype Pilot your proposed ship has an action bar with similar value, the same Agility and hit points, a slightly worse dial, and an Attack value that's twice as effective. You think all of that is worth… one point.So tell me: if +1 Attack and a moderately worse dial is worth 1 point, why is the Interceptor 6 points more expensive than the TIE Fighter? Why does a Heavy Laser Cannon cost 7 points? Why is the X-wing 6 points more expensive than the post-Refit A-wing, despite the fact that the A-wing has a better action bar and better dial? Why is the B-wing 4 points more expensive than a Y-wing, despite having a much worse dial?

Do I think evade, boost, worst manuever dial, in exchange for 1 atk +1 pt. Yes. Youre giving up manueverability and defensive avoidance for 1 atk and increased cost.

The jousting value alone of a 3/3/2/2 stat line is around:

12*(1.74*1*(1.25*2+2)/3)^0.52 = 19.76

That's at PS1 relative to a PS1 TIE Fighter. 16 points would be horribly overcosted. 6 ships at 3/3/2/2 would destroy any squad in the game, hands down.

• 24 hull / shields at 3 agility: more durable than the TIE Swarm.
• six 3 dice attacks, 18 dice total = more firepower than anything else by a large margin

Without even getting into nitty-gritty specifics, it is very obvious that 16 points at 3/3/2/2 is a terrible idea.

While I don't agree with your equation which doesn't accurately represent all ships we have in game. A stripped down ship w few actions/upgrades to reduce cost and 3 atk 3 evade and 4hp is extremely powerful and likely never to occur for balance reasons. However cost wise it's still comparable to a prototype pilot (17) and alpha squad interceptor (18).

You can read my Lanchester's thread on where the jousting equation there comes from. You are free to disagree with the equation without first understanding it, but I (and pretty much everyone else here, by the looks of it) am free to disagree with your opinion as unsubstantiated and therefore meaningless.

Edit: point being, 3/3/2/2 is around a baseline value of 20 points before you consider the dial, actions, etc. It is a very coarse measurement, but even at that level makes it extremely clear that 16 points is extremely under costed. You seem to be burying your head in the sand with regard to fundamental mechanics. That is all.

Even your own Lancaster thread doesn't match the point values of current ships correctly but you quote it as bible.

So what's the Advanced meant to be if it isn't the Advanced x1? The Avenger? Are you acknowledging FFG as having pooled the Avenger's stuff into their Advanced release?

Even your own Lancaster thread doesn't match the point values of current ships correctly but you quote it as bible.

His thread is a model. It does not perfectly match reality, it approximates fairly accurately. This is how pretty much all of modern scientific understanding works. It's close enough to understand what's going on. It's not accurate to one or two points but it doesn't need to be as long as it does what it's meant to do.

If anything comparing it to the most similar ship in game is likely the most accurate depiction. There is no wrong number since it doesn't exist except in comparison to the awing.

Read post 70, particularly the bit with pictures.

Your ship shares the following with the A-wing and not with the X-wing :
1. Agility and Hull values. These are, relative to attack , not very significant to have slight changes to, especially when you lowered one and raised the other. We're talking Hull Upgrade Versus Stealth Device difference here.

That's it.

And what you share with the X and not the A ,
Your action bar.
Your maneuver dial, all that changes is the straights are all one unit faster. The dial all but defines the ship.
Your attack value. See Vorpal's post for how significant three attack is relative to two. Just giving the Advanced x1 +1 attack would make a colossal difference to it.

You accuse us of avoiding an inconvenient point, but aren't you doing just that by refusing to even look at the X-wing's similarity to your proposal?

Even your own Lancaster thread doesn't match the point values of current ships correctly but you quote it as bible.

So what's the Advanced meant to be if it isn't the Advanced x1? The Avenger? Are you acknowledging FFG as having pooled the Avenger's stuff into their Advanced release?

Even your own Lancaster thread doesn't match the point values of current ships correctly but you quote it as bible.

His thread is a model. It does not perfectly match reality, it approximates fairly accurately. This is how pretty much all of modern scientific understanding works. It's close enough to understand what's going on. It's not accurate to one or two points but it doesn't need to be as long as it does what it's meant to do.

For what its worth, looking at the numbers quoted above, it is hard to argue that the error band on any of these 7 ships is more than 1 point, let alone 1.5 or 2.0. Regardless, it is certainly not 4 points, which is how large it would need to be to accommodate a 3/3/2/2 stat line and good dial/upgrades at 16 points!

And if we add those 4 points on we get MajorJuggler's model's predicted cost for the X-wing, no?

Then how is it distinct from the Defender beyond being weaker?

Its not a big target and doesn't have a major blind spot. It's these two factors that have made high manuverability fighter dangerous too the TIE Defender. The A-Wing, TIE Avenger, and TIE Interceptor is a good example. Baron Fel took on the most advanced TIE Defender known as Red Star 1 and killed it with a TIE Interceptor.

I'm talking X-wing here, not the TIE fighter video game. TIE fighter overblew the Defender so much that pretty much every other source to touch it has tried to nerf it into the dust to make it sensible. The Avenger's never strayed outside TIE fighter and thus never got the same treatme

The Defender wasn't nerfed unless you are counting the game mechanics of the battlefront series or the rts games, in which case you shouldn't because nothing in them counts as being true to canon UNLESS those things were introduced in those games and they didn't appear in other mediums.

JFYI The Defender is not nerfed in X-Wing alliance. Its shields are halved BUT they recharge twice as fast. take in mind if your saying the Baron beat Red Star 1 because a nerf that is not so. The reason he won was because he is the greatest pilot in SW, and their plenty of real world aces that used less manuverable craft to deafeat highly manuverable craft. 2nd the TIE Interceptor is the Empires greatest dog fighter ref Complete vehicles, and was one of the greatest dog fighter of the civil war over all including everyone craft ref vehicles and vessels. 3rd the fire power they both carry is good enough to one shot eachother.

As far as stats go in this game all the attributes I mentioned for the Avenger do play an important roll in determining its stats. I have come to the realization that the stats for the ships are not purely based on a single attribute of the craft the represent.

For example the TIE Interceptor attack dice are 3 when it should easily be a 7 or more. The attack dice are taking the eccm, targeting capabilities and damage capabilities of the craft as a whole while the defensive dice are including the ecm, reg counter measures, and manuverability of the craft.

This is why the TIE Phantom has more base attack dice than other craft, it sure as heck didnt have the fire power of the Avenger, Defender, and Interceptor. They are taking into consideration that the craft has appeared out of nowhere catching the enemy by surprise.

This is also why the Defender has 3 defensive dice, it has the tightest turns in SW but it is a huge ship with a big blind spot.

Taking this into consideration I think the Avenger should have 4 defensive dice with more white Interceptor dial

take in mind if your saying the Baron beat Red Star 1 because a nerf that is not so.

I don't think anyone else has mentioned that dogfight, actually.

For example the TIE Interceptor attack dice are 3 when it should easily be a 7 or more.

Um, what?

Taking this into consideration I think the Avenger should have 4 defensive dice with more white Interceptor dial

So, translated into mechanics for this game, you're saying that the TIE Avenger should be essentially untouchable by any ship that doesn't roll 4 attack dice?

Here's an interesting image

Glad that isnt my Avenger he is reselling but hopefully not recasting

I was just wondering where the Avenger in that picture came from to be honest. I've seen the picture used a couple of times on ebay, but only to sell the asteroids...

We need the current Tie Advanced fixed before we can go around theorycrafting what role an Avenger should have. After that, why not? It looks cool, and if FFG wants to put it in they'll find a way. I'd prefer an Assault Gunboat first though.

there are a couple of people other than myself making an Avenger on Shapeways. Mine is closer to the fractal sponge version rather than having the oval cockpit which some like i know, but bugs the heck out of me.

mine

https://www.shapeways.com/model/1056361/tie-avenger-1-270.html?li=my-models&materialId=60

And Mels which i think might be the one in the pic but has yet to be updated evidently. I dont know what that means

https://www.shapeways.com/model/923878/tye-vengador-2-0-1-270.html

There is another but i cannot remember the designers name and if i type in avenger i get a lot of 'Avengers' stuff

As for the Gunboat. you do the stats i have the mini *L*

take in mind if your saying the Baron beat Red Star 1 because a nerf that is not so.

I don't think anyone else has mentioned that dogfight, actually.

For example the TIE Interceptor attack dice are 3 when it should easily be a 7 or more.

Um, what?

Taking this into consideration I think the Avenger should have 4 defensive dice with more white Interceptor dial

So, translated into mechanics for this game, you're saying that the TIE Avenger should be essentially untouchable by any ship that doesn't roll 4 attack dice?

Yes we have had this talk before the 9.3 is powerful enough that adirect on a-wings and x-wing vaps them with a single beam. It smashes Y-Wings with a single beam. It has shown just passing by starfighter to cause explosions, which would mean in this game any hit that isnt a kill is caused by the beam passing by the ship. A full quad link hit on cap ship causes horrific damage both in pictures in source books and in the Rogue Squadron series.

How ever many dice is reguired to one shot kill a Y A and X would be = dice rolled for a single beam from a 9.3. used by the Avenger Defender and Interceptor.

Going by your math a Avenger with 4 defence would not be immune to attacks from ships with attack dice less than four. Four dice is a problem why is it ok under the right conditions E-Wings can have really high defensive dice. I only looked at the topic once but one guy said it could have up to like 5 or 6.

For example the TIE Interceptor attack dice are 3 when it should easily be a 7 or more.

Um, what?

Yes we have had this talk before the 9.3 is powerful enough that adirect on a-wings and x-wing vaps them with a single beam. It smashes Y-Wings with a single beam. It has shown just passing by starfighter to cause explosions, which would mean in this game any hit that isnt a kill is caused by the beam passing by the ship. A full quad link hit on cap ship causes horrific damage both in pictures in source books and in the Rogue Squadron series.

Yes, we have had this talk before, and it still sounds crazy. I haven't read every single EU source, but I'm not familiar with any source in which a single bolt from an Interceptor's cannon kills a Y-wing, nor one in which a single Interceptor causes "horrific" damage to a capital ship. And the idea that it causes ships to explode with just a near-miss is… unsupported by any source with which I'm familiar.

Moreover, it doesn't make any sense from an in-universe perspective. If the Empire can fit weaponry like that on a starfighter, why does it have any fighters without that capability? And why, in fact, would it need any other ships at all? It already has a fleet of mini-Death-Stars! Point them toward enemy fighters, and they won't even have to hit to blow things up; let even a single Interceptor get close to a Rebel capital ship and that ship is dead.

Taking this into consideration I think the Avenger should have 4 defensive dice with more white Interceptor dial

So, translated into mechanics for this game, you're saying that the TIE Avenger should be essentially untouchable by any ship that doesn't roll 4 attack dice?

Going by your math a Avenger with 4 defence would not be immune to attacks from ships with attack dice less than four. Four dice is a problem why is it ok under the right conditions E-Wings can have really high defensive dice. I only looked at the topic once but one guy said it could have up to like 5 or 6.

Assuming both sides get an action, the typical hit percentage for a ship with 3 Attack against 4 Agility is 27%. In a typical combat round, four X-wings might expect to do about 2.5 damage to a ship with 4 Agility. An E-wing with Stealth and R2-F2 can get to 5 Agility, and that's absolutely going to change the game--but even then it's only situational, and it's going to be relatively expensive and require a lot of support to get it working and keep it working.

And that's because there's a huge difference between increasing your Agility to 4+ with a temporary or conditional boost, and having 4 Agility all the time. Currently the only way to get there is by equipping a Stealth Device, which goes away as soon as you get hit, or by being a Phantom and sacrificing a round's worth of attacks. I'd like to see it stay that way.

Wow, I just decided to check this thread out and read through the last couple pages. I'm really very glad Gungo isn't playtesting or developing this game. Additional attack dice, especially going from 2-3 are worth rather more than just about any other change to a ship, barring massive dial issues.

And people also have to realize that it's completely unreasonable to pull out various EU references to argue every little point, like the model of laser cannons fitted to the Avenger, and how they did this or that in a novel or game or cutscene. The game developers can't be expected to conform to every single circumstance shown in the books and still maintain balance or sanity. Books/movies/comics/etc are all about plot and the story, the miniatures game is all about gameplay and balance. Another great example is the Zero-G Stormtrooper thread, where people were pointing out a handful of the troopers did massive damage at the Bilbringi shipyards. And a single proton torpedo killed the Death Star, what's your point?

I'd like to see the Avenger represented, but probably as a title for the existing Advanced. I'd rather see that ship get more love and options than another cookie cutter TIE model.

I like the look of the avenger and I would like to see the advanced get some love. If we can have reprints, why not a model change? Release an aces pack with an advanced using the avenger sculpt. Give it a refit to get the attack to 3 and boom we all win.

Also, just pitching in that 3 3 3 2 or even 3 3 2 2 should cost more than 16 at ps1.

The big reason for no model change is expense. Getting a new sculpt, and new mold made costs MUCH more than just telling your painters to use a different color. If you're going to go to that trouble, just make it a totally new ship.

*shrug* I don't doubt there is cost involved. I think that the sales would offset it though. In terms of cost they save nothing by making a new ship. Cards, tokens and whatnot are all still going in. This gives a chance to adjust balance for the advanced and produce something new that I would have to buy where as I would likely turn my nose up at an advanced that was just a repaint.

Ok ... thats how my Tie Avenger would look like:

3-3-3-2

Actions: BR, TL, Focus, Evade

Upgrades: Missile, Beam Weapon

Dial: Interceptor with Tie-Fighters' K-turns

PS2 Pilot: 25 Points

PS4 Pilot: 27 Points (+ EPT)

PS7 Pilot: 31 Points (Wingman/Support/Defence-Ability + EPT)

PS8 Pilot: 33 Points (Generating Hits-Ability + EPT)

~~~ Beam Weapons:

Decoy Beam (1 p):

You can't be a target of a Target Lock action at range 3 or further.

Jammer Beam (2 p):

When defending at range 1, the attacker don't get the +1 attack bonus when attacking with primary weapons.

Tractor Beam (3 points)

When attacking a small base ship from outside it's firing arc at range 1-2, reduce the defender's agility value by 1 (to a minimum of 0).

~~~~~~~

But I think the Tie Advanced would need a fix first ...

So compared to an X-wing...

You improve the dial.

You give it BR and Evade

You give it an extra defence die.

You give it a beam weapon which balances removing the astromech slot.

All for 4 points? Yeah - so that is never going to happen....

Ok ... thats how my Tie Avenger would look like:

3-3-3-2

Actions: BR, TL, Focus, Evade

Upgrades: Missile, Beam Weapon

Dial: Interceptor with Tie-Fighters' K-turns

PS2 Pilot: 25 Points

PS4 Pilot: 27 Points (+ EPT)

PS7 Pilot: 31 Points (Wingman/Support/Defence-Ability + EPT)

PS8 Pilot: 33 Points (Generating Hits-Ability + EPT)

~~~ Beam Weapons:

Decoy Beam (1 p):

You can't be a target of a Target Lock action at range 3 or further.

Jammer Beam (2 p):

When defending at range 1, the attacker don't get the +1 attack bonus when attacking with primary weapons.

Tractor Beam (3 points)

When attacking a small base ship from outside it's firing arc at range 1-2, reduce the defender's agility value by 1 (to a minimum of 0).

~~~~~~~

But I think the Tie Advanced would need a fix first ...

That's a little close to the E-wing to be 25 points. The dial is too good not to be around 27 points, making it the Imperial E-Wing in the same way the Advanced is the Imperial X-Wing.

Well, you cant use the beam slot if you use 4 basic ships of those.

But if you go with 4 Rookies you can use Droid + Flechette torps.

Or go with 4 Red Squadrons + Flechette Torps.

- against 4 basic PS2 Tie Avengers - this should be quite balanced.

Yeah we don't know how the dial of the E-Wing will be.

But the E-Wing will have System Upgrade + Droid ... thats a lot

Well, you cant use the beam slot if you use 4 basic ships of those.

But if you go with 4 Rookies you can use Droid + Flechette torps.

Or go with 4 Red Squadrons + Flechette Torps.

- against 4 basic PS2 Tie Avengers - this should be quite balanced.

Yeah we don't know how the dial of the E-Wing will be.

But the E-Wing will have System Upgrade + Droid ... thats a lot

That isn't the real issue though. Your ship leading/ running flanker a Tie Squadron is the real issue. It will be beastly with the correct support, and you can fit 6 Ties in there as a primary group. Or have the best ship in the game to support two Bounty hunters with Recon Specialists.

Not neccessarily. The Avenger miss the boost action, so its more a jouster then a flanker.

You would of course fire 2 Flechettes at one Avenger, so it would lose its action in the comming turn.

You could go up to 26 points base cost, thus permitting 4 of those in a 100 point game, of course.

Looks like FFG son't want to spiol the E-Wings dial ... so we need to be patient.