Got caught by surprise last night. Rather unpleasantly, since everything else is going badly in both luck and capabilities (mid Gold level campaign, so very tough work for OL now).

Now, nearly all RtL levels consist of one area. But Rumour, and Legendary, levels have multiple areas.

I'd always assumed that new areas flip the reinforcement marker, just as new levels do. And conversely, that new levels activate all the 'new area' cards (Hordes of the Things, Brilliant Commander, Wind Pact, etc). Yet it seems that I was mistaken.

RtL Pg 17
At the start of every dungeon level, the overlord places the reinforcement marker in front of him faceup ... the reinforcement marker stays facedown until the end of the dungeon level.

So the heroes get to go through the entire rumour/legendary level with only one spawn, unless there is a butt- load of threat available (not likely when the Staff of knowledge is dumping 6-10 threat per turn!). To make matters worse, they still get to use Wind Pact to eliminate the OLs best card multiple times, and the OL can only sit in the headlights staring, unable to do anything.

Thoroughly ticked off with this, I went checking. I can't find anything that says a new level is a new area. Therefore Wind Pact (and Brilliant Commander/Hordes of the Things) shouldn't be working all the time... It does say, also on page 17 " As when revealing a new area,... " indicating that setting up a new level is similar to, but not identical to, setting up a new Area. In otherwords, they are not exactly the same. A new level is not a new Area. Even the first level is not an Area. In fact even an outdoor location is not an Area.

Of course, this means that Wind Pact, Brilliant Commander and Hordes of the Things (and any other cards that specify new Areas) are almost completely worthless - and even more useless for the unfortunate Lts that have them as special powers.

I'm sure I'm missing something and that levels and outdoor locations must somehow count as areas (and IMO areas should at least partially count as levels), but I just can't find it. Can anyone point me to what I have missed?

Still severely pissed off that I was forced to discard a Dark Charm, an Ambush, a Diamond Razor Wing spawn, a Diamond Spider spawn and a couple of other cards (as well as, or more importantly, being forced to play good cards ASAP rather than hold them for the ideal usage) while still only getting to flip the reinforcement marker twice in the entire dungeon (all the while bleeding threat like you couldn't imagine from the !&%$@^ Staff of Knowledge...

Hm, the FAQ entry specifically allows Wind Pact to be used in a Lt. encounter. That and the fact that some of the Lt.s actually HAVE the area-related powers is a strong indication that an Outdoor Location counts as an area for all aspects of the game.

Regarding Rumors and Legendarys, the rulebook is quite clear:

Areas in Dungeons
Normally, an entire dungeon level is revealed as soon as the
heroes enter it, even if there are closed doors blocking off parts
of it. Only special levels, such as Rumor levels and Overlord’s
Keep levels, have multiple areas. If no areas are indicated on a
given dungeon level’s map, it has only one area.

The indication of a new area is made by the special door pictogram (that with the triangulars as endcaprs, pg. 32). So I don´t have the Level book with me, but I am quite certain that the areas in Rumors and Legendarys are indicated and separated by those triangular doors. Furthermore, the isn´t the description (the flavour text) in R & L levels always titled as "Area" ?

Edit: I reread your post. Your area complaint is mainly targetted towards normal Dungeon levels, sorry. But isn´t the red rune-door in a level endcapped with triangulars? The rulebook entry also says, that the level is "one area", not "one part of a larger area that constitutes the dungeon".

In normal dungeons or at the beginning of Lt. encounters, you will start with the eyes (reinforcement marker) up. You will also activate Brilliant Commander, Hordes of the things, and Wind pact, if in play. I am uncertain whether Wind Pact would activate at the start of the first dungeon level, but I would be inclined to say it does, since if Eliza Farrow is fortifying Brilliant Commander she would start with an extra master in the first level. You can discuss that one with your heroes.

If you are in a Legendary Dungeon, Rumor, or OL's keep there are multiple areas to be revealed. Triangular-capped door means A) you don't put anything on the board behind that door until that door is opened and the area is revealed, just like any door in "vanilla," and B)when that door opens and the area is revealed, powers and skills such as Brilliant Commander, Hordes, and Wind pact will activate once again. If you are planning to get wind pact and can afford it before doing legendary dungeons, rumors, or Lt. encounters (assuming your OL has treachery), that's probably a good idea.

sorry, you've both utterly missed the point.

I know what the rules are for areas and for levels, and how they are defined.

The problem is the inconsistencies. And the fact that new levels are assumed to be new areas, yet nowhere are actually stated to be such (and I know, the FAQ answer and Lts are the clearest example and back up the assumption). Yet new areas don't get the same treatment as new levels.

Mainly it came about because I got hammered by the Wind Pact (which we have long considered one of the most important skills or Lt encounters are a disaster) in a rumour dungeon with lots of areas, yet couldn't spawn in those areas becuase the Reinforcement marker specifies levels. At the same time, wind pact specifies areas, yet hit me even on new levels. Hero side is having their cake and eating it to (in this particular case).

So to summarise
a) At no time are new levels described as new areas - yet they get treated as new areas for a number of important cards.
b) At no time are new areas treated as new levels.
? Did I miss something somewhere that does discuss levels and areas?

I tried to correct my misreading in my edit, yet you utterly failed to notice that

If no areas are indicated on a
given dungeon level’s map, it has only one area.

If a level has exactly one area, doesn´t that imply that a new level is a new area? Otherwise two levels would belong to the same area, which I would call outright silly.

Corbon said:

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I missed the point. The point is, the heroes DO get to eat their cake and eat it too with wind pact. The wording on cards (Hordes, Brilliant C, W Pact) that were made before the existence of rtl says areas revealed because dungeon levels didn't exist. The cards aren't removed from the deck/skill counts in rtl, so clearly they have a function. I'm pretty sure it's not meant to only work in legendary dungeons and rumors, so I think that means it works at the beginning of a dungeon. Technically, when you enter a new dungeon level, that is a new area being revealed...because the whole level is revealed, not just the starting point for the heroes like in vanilla.

There's no official ruling on this, it's just common sense that for these cards to have any benefit for either party and to update them for play in rtl that they would work at the beginning of a dungeon level. You could say no wind pact on the first level of the dungeon if you want, but think about vanilla: In almost every vanilla quest, it starts in a little hallway and the first thing you do is open a door...90% of the time on the first turn. Usually, there are more than 3 areas in a vanilla quest, so normally wind pact gets used more than three times. In rtl, it's only 3 times. I don't think it's any more powerful in rtl than it was in vanilla. It just happens to be EXTREMELY powerful in both.

Hey, this is my opinion. It's also the opinion of all my players, friends who play rtl, and I believe most on the faq. You can house it however you want, but then why not just take wind pact and those two powers out of the game. I think that Lt. encounters would seem like less of an "area being revealed," but Eliza has brilliant commander, krieg the relentless has hordes of the things, and the faq clearly states wind pact works for lt. battles, so...I think it would work in a dungeon. How else do these lts. fortify? They don't? You don't want to upgrade one of those dark priests to a master and slap a curse token on whomever is foolish enough to kill it?

Rumors and legendary areas are supposed to be harder for the heroes, partially because they have additional areas to wade through. Wind pact therefore has greater effect...so do Brilliant commander and Hordes of the Things. Hordes means you can get more silver/gold/diamond skeleys/beastmen/spiders...whichever category (eldritch/humanoid/beast) you have upgraded to make each area more nasty.

Wind pact sucks for an OL. It always has, it still does. As a hero, I plan to pick it up. If somebody tells me I can only use it in lt. battles, rumors, and legendary areas, however--it becomes worse than earth pact or water pact, because at least those I can move through something previously impassable and they have a conceivably useable ability.

The reinforcement marker is by level. By the time you hit the third/fourth level of a dungeon, you should be able to flip that thing a few times. That's the best I can tell you. The others are by area, which once again you can say a level is not a new area, but it seems like something new to me. It seems to be more than just a new area to me, and I certainly would want it as OL with either of those two powers out and certainly would want it as a hero with Wind Pact. Use your best judgement and discuss it with your players, and feel free to see if you can contact FFG if you totally disagree with my logic and see if they can give you an official answer. This is just what makes sense to me, and I hope you can see where I'm coming from even if you think I'm "utterly" wrong.

An interesting question, in a dungeon level with more than one area, does the Reinforcement Marker flip up to eyes-showing when a new area is revealed?

-shnar

shnar said:

Indeed (but it has to be a "new area" not just behind a set of doors)

I've always treated a new dungeon level as a new area. So if I've had Horde of Things out, I get to use it each level. Same thing if the Heroes have Wind Pact.

As for the Reinforcement marker per area, I don't have an answer but I would like to see it ruled that a new area causes the eyes to flip.

Oboewan said:

?? It explicitly does not do that. It resets at the end of every dungeon level, like it says.

Parathion said:

My apologies. I misread what you wrote in the edit.

You did try to address the point (thanks), but happened to be wrong. All doors, including teh runelocked ones, in most levels are square capped and are not area differentiators.

What makes you say, that a dungeon level has even one area if none are indicated? 'Area' is simply a terminology that does not apply in most levels.

@Feanor, I agree with most of what you say about how things should, and generally are, treated. Levels should count as new areas, and so should outdoor encounters. It is obvious from a number of cards and affects that otherwise become stupidly useless.
However, they do not, unless someone can show me specifically that they do...

I guess my real point, is that it is obvious that they should. So we all automatically house-rule that they do.
But that house rule favours the heroes because we do not house rule the reverse situation so that new areas have some of the same affects as new levels.
At the moment, under the common house rule that new levels/outdoor locations count as new areas, we find the heroes getting two bites during rumour and legendary dungeons. They get to count Wind Pact every time. Yet the OL does not get to reset the spawn counter in a new area.
I think, like Remy. that if we are going to house-rule one part we should make a similar adjustment in the second part (reset the reinforcement counter in new levels as well to try and provide some marginal balancing efforts.

Corbon said:

Well, the rules explicitly say so! See my quote above.

Parathion said:

Sorry, you didn't annotate it in any way as a quote or give a page number, so I assumed it was your own statement. I managed to do a pdf-search using 'Area' and miss that particular sentence.

Found it now. That is exactly what I was looking for, thank you.

Corbon said:

On one hand, I agree that the house rule does seem to go against the OL if the heroes have Wind Pact. We haven't seen it in campaign, but I can only imagine how powerful it can be to take dark charms, Gold level Dark Priest spawns, etc. out of the OLs hand. Don't tell my OL, but I've actually been planning to get Wind Pact (he will probably read this post, btw..so I'm kidding).

On the other, Brilliant Commander and Hordes of the things are in every OL's deck while wind pact is not in every heroes' skill set. And Eliza and a few others can give those for free for an entire dungeon.

My experience with rumors and legendary areas as OL was that they were a)at the end of the dungeon, so I had a lot of powers/threat built up and b)I still owned the heroes in terms of conquest. I believe I took 37 from the heroes in the silver legendary dungeon. Granted, gold level humanoids and being the BML help, but I believe I spawned 3 or 4 times in that dungeon. If I got two flips for free, that's like 5-6 spawns...plus the added kills and slowdowns....we might STILL be in that dungeon.

That being said, my experience lacked wind pact to contend with. My best answer is that since you know you have wind pact in play you try to get those cards out before they can be taken away from you. Not much to do in a Lieutenant fight, but...once again, you know he's taking either a crushing blow or a dark charm out of your hand so put 2 dark charms and a crushing blow in there and make him choose. I know as Beastman lord with 4 monster treachery against a party with Boggs AND Kirga I often played spawns earlier in the level so I didn't end up not using my "free" (cheap) spawn. It wasn't always the most opportune time/location to play them, but it gave the heroes more to contend with and hopefully slowed them down a bit more or put some command on my skeleys. Flipping was cheaper for me in case they did give me a good chance to spawn later that level.

I think more of the issue here is that Wind Pact is really powerful. I'm not gonna go so far as to say over-powered, but I do regard it as one of the best skills in the game. It's one of those ones that doesn't do much for your individual hero's power, but makes the party as a whole MUCH stronger. I was really excited when my heroes came out of the Silver Legendary knowing they were going to be facing gold lts. in tamalir and they passed that one up. Big sigh of relief on my part...since dark charming a born to the bow rapid-firing Kirga was a big part of my strategy.