I think one of the big adjustments for almost all of us is coming out of a d20 mindset. We are used to encounters being constructed in a particular way, rather than the story evolving as it should. Instead of looking at video games, compare it to cinematic films. How often do you have a group of five characters ganging up on a single big bad in any of the Star Wars films... Or Indiana Jones? How about none? I think of the end of the Last Crusade, where the big baddie is effectively holding Indiana hostage by shooting his father, and now the challenge is to survive the traps in order to save his father. Eventually it becomes both struggling against the environment, rather than a prize fight at the end.

Bond villains are a better example of the big bad, but usually their lackeys are far more powerful in physical combat than they are. The powerful comboid lackeys are there to delay the players so that Dr. BBEG can get away. More often than not, Bond is left to defuse a bomb, or to avert the catastrophe.

I think in many ways, EotE needs us to think differently about encounter/adventure construction and to avoid boss fights in general, or at least as GM's, being ready for the players to drop the BBEG quickly. I think having something else at play for when that happens will make the encounter more climactic.

If by balance people are trying to simply control the results of Wounds and Critical hits that is going to be extremely hard to manage. There are avenues to controlling the outcome of an encounter with the appropriate talents. A Nemesis that wins initiative consistently can use Talents like Improved Stunning Blow or a weapon with a Concussive effect to Stagger a player Melee specialist. A Nemesis with a modded Force Pike can get the Concussive effect. They can use a Bola launcher to Ensnare a melee specialist. Give them Pressure Point and one good solid 10 point hit to a Marauder's Strain will get their attention.

I notice a lot of these concerns revolve around a Melee centric player laying waste to a target and I never read GMs using any of these Immobilization techniques to slow them down. The conversation typically then moves to Soak rules need to be nerfed, or some weapons need to be nerfed, or there needs to be some rule added to prevent the outcome. If GMs are going to let players have a pair of modded Vibroswords with a ton of talents from the Marauder tree and then be surprised when the player annihilates a target I'm left a little baffled honestly.

If by balance people are trying to simply control the results of Wounds and Critical hits that is going to be extremely hard to manage. There are avenues to controlling the outcome of an encounter with the appropriate talents. A Nemesis that wins initiative consistently can use Talents like Improved Stunning Blow or a weapon with a Concussive effect to Stagger a player Melee specialist. A Nemesis with a modded Force Pike can get the Concussive effect. They can use a Bola launcher to Ensnare a melee specialist. Give them Pressure Point and one good solid 10 point hit to a Marauder's Strain will get their attention.

I like all of this, a lot.

Tactics first, then tweaks, and if that doesn't work, then start talking house rules.

I suspect a well built Nemesis with a WT in the low to mid 20s, normal Soak and defenses for a character of it's type, and the proper tools and plan for engaging multiple opponents would work without the need for any special house rules at all.

I think one of the most overlooked portions of making sure a Nemesis presents a challenge is for them to consistently win initiative. High Cool/Vigilance, some ranks of Rapid Reaction, etc. You pair that with things like Stagger and Immobilize, and a Melee player has a real headache. If the player group's 'A plan' was Samurai Jack, it's quickly time for 'Plan B'.

after two rounds, one of the players crits him and through dual wielding and specialization tree stuff adds 100 to his crit roll, killing the endboss in one hit and ending the encounter I'd taken some time setting up.

Cool! More power to your players. Nothing wrong with awesome characters showing off how awesome they are.

but them killing him this easily, and in a way that skipped most of the encounter annoys me a bit.

If I may be so bold, this is where you're going wrong. You play to find out what happens, not guide your players down your railroad. (As for spending Destiny to keep him alive for longer? That's what it's there for, so long as you don't remove all protaganism from your players. From the sounds of it, you kept it balanced.)

What happens next? What do the remaining pirates want? What do the pirate's allies and enemies do? The PCs now have a reputation as being lethal in melee, so future opponents will take that into account.

One of the things I love about this system is the dice make anything possible and seem to level the playing field. Low-level characters succeed as much as high-level guys Nobody died at Mos Shuuta

after two rounds, one of the players crits him and through dual wielding and specialization tree stuff adds 100 to his crit roll, killing the endboss in one hit and ending the encounter I'd taken some time setting up.

Cool! More power to your players. Nothing wrong with awesome characters showing off how awesome they are.

but them killing him this easily, and in a way that skipped most of the encounter annoys me a bit.

If I may be so bold, this is where you're going wrong. You play to find out what happens, not guide your players down your railroad. (As for spending Destiny to keep him alive for longer? That's what it's there for, so long as you don't remove all protaganism from your players. From the sounds of it, you kept it balanced.)

What happens next? What do the remaining pirates want? What do the pirate's allies and enemies do? The PCs now have a reputation as being lethal in melee, so future opponents will take that into account.

Oh they'll definitely encounter these pirates again, when they least expect it:P And the sword wielding guy still got the kill in his next slot so he got to show off his awesomeness. I get where you're coming from with the railroading comment, but this is supposed to be cinematic combat, which in the case of pirates, especially endboss pirates, should mean swashbuckling duels, not two vibroswords through the skull on the first hit.

At the end of the day, playing an rpg with friends is about making sure everyone has fun, and since he built his character this way on purpose, I suppose that seeing all his skills work together like this means he had fun. But I'm definitely rethinking certain setpieces, the game should challenge the party as well, and in that way, the encounter did not do it's job in making the party feel mortal or in danger, which considering they were facing an illustrious pirate captain who was supposed to be feared by a rather large amount of people on an unknown asteroid, they should have felt.

The last bit is my fault of course, for not moving tactically enough and not taking the specific skillsets into consideration enough. But that's why I'm here asking what I can do better, I'm sort of new to the GM business, and this is the first large scale campaign I've run, and the first campaign which isn't out of an official adventure book, so I'm learning as I go.

Oh they'll definitely encounter these pirates again, when they least expect it:P And the sword wielding guy still got the kill in his next slot so he got to show off his awesomeness. I get where you're coming from with the railroading comment, but this is supposed to be cinematic combat, which in the case of pirates, especially endboss pirates, should mean swashbuckling duels, not two vibroswords through the skull on the first hit.

It didn't come of like the GM planned which is 100% normal for a tabletop RPG! Next time, make sure the Pirate Captain has pirates with him and some good lieutenants to help him out. If the vibro-wielding PC is the most dangerous one, then let the Pirate Captain gang up with his henchmen. When the PC survives, he'll feel even more rewarded than usual. Meanwhile, the rest of the PCs get to have fun blasting pirate minions in the face.

Learning as you go is the most fun way to do it!

In Edge of the Empire, villains and henchmen are a lot more vulnerable than they would be in many other contemporary games. You really can't just pile on wounds or soak without things becoming ludicrous. There have already been a lot of good suggestions about how to build more survivable villains in the thread (e.g. - Nemesis, durability, etc), so I won't rehash those.

My main point is to not take it too hard. The players are going to kill all your coolest villains.

It's just what they do.

So when I do big boss fights I kind of want them to be memorable, the things you've said will certainly help with keeping my boss alive long enough for cool **** to happen.

If you have something cool planned, then you should lead with that. I've never had a player say a fight was awesome because it took a long time.

You using your Nemesis ranks people?

What is a Nemesis rank? I can't find reference to that anywhere in the CRB and nothing is showing up in Google.

You using your Nemesis ranks people?

What is a Nemesis rank? I can't find reference to that anywhere in the CRB and nothing is showing up in Google.

I think they mean Adversary ranks, which ups the to hit difficulty by one per rank.

The best thing to do is look to the movies for your examples. In the films, what Big Bad did the PCs ever face down alone?

A lot of great advice already on how to have your solo boss survive being one-hit killed when it seems appropriate. Here's something else you can do: Check out the Under a Black Sun adventure and check out what they do for that final boss fight.

They add an interesting optional rule that you can apply to the final BBEG nemesis fight—give him an extra initiative slot at the end of the round. It's hands down one of the coolest little additions you can make to make your boss fights memorable.

I'm curious, are you using any House Rules and/or have you allowed the PCs to ignore any Encumbrance or use any items, mods, or abilities that are not quite RAW? I ask because sometimes a seemingly minor change can affect combat in unintended ways and lead to unexpected results.

The best thing to do is look to the movies for your examples. In the films, what Big Bad did the PCs ever face down alone?

Not including 1v1 fights, here are a few from the movies that I can think of off the top of my head.

Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul

Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Dooku

Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Dooku (again)

Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Grevious

Mace Windu & some other Jedi vs Palpatine

QG & OW vs DM - There was a massive Gungan battle and a Queen charging the throne room going on at the exact same time two PCs out of the group were fighting the Nemesis (i.e. - Darth Maul).

OB & AK vs DK - Massive Clone Battle going on right outside that all the other PCs were involved in.

OB & AK vs DK v2.0 - Massive Space Battle going on over the capitol world of the Republic that the other PCs would be fighting in, plus R2-D2 was fighting droid minions elsewhere on the same ship.

OB & AK vs GrV - See the above. Also, if you'll recall, Grevious was not alone given he was surrounded by his 4 rival bodyguard droids and a bridge full of minions.

5 Jedi Masters vs Darth Sidious - This is the closest example to a Group vs Boss fight, but it's pretty obvious at least 3 of those Jedi Masters were NPCs and Mace Windu probably would be too. This isn't a Boss fight so much as it is Anakin's transition from PC to NPC Villain.

So, yeah, off the top of my head, I still don't see a lot of group battles versus 1 lone villain in the Star Wars Saga.

The best thing to do is look to the movies for your examples. In the films, what Big Bad did the PCs ever face down alone?

Not including 1v1 fights, here are a few from the movies that I can think of off the top of my head.

Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul

Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Dooku

Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Dooku (again)

Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Grevious

Mace Windu & some other Jedi vs Palpatine

QG & OW vs DM - There was a massive Gungan battle and a Queen charging the throne room going on at the exact same time two PCs out of the group were fighting the Nemesis (i.e. - Darth Maul).

OB & AK vs DK - Massive Clone Battle going on right outside that all the other PCs were involved in.

OB & AK vs DK v2.0 - Massive Space Battle going on over the capitol world of the Republic that the other PCs would be fighting in, plus R2-D2 was fighting droid minions elsewhere on the same ship.

OB & AK vs GrV - See the above. Also, if you'll recall, Grevious was not alone given he was surrounded by his 4 rival bodyguard droids and a bridge full of minions.

5 Jedi Masters vs Darth Sidious - This is the closest example to a Group vs Boss fight, but it's pretty obvious at least 3 of those Jedi Masters were NPCs and Mace Windu probably would be too. This isn't a Boss fight so much as it is Anakin's transition from PC to NPC Villain.

So, yeah, off the top of my head, I still don't see a lot of group battles versus 1 lone villain in the Star Wars Saga.

All of the massive battles weren't exactly fought by the pc's, large amounts of npc's duking it out with little to no effect on the outcome of the nemesis battle, which takes place miles and miles away from that fight isn't exactly an argument in your favour. As for your assertion that the pc's would be there instead of at a known location of a boss battle, those are rather different players then I'm used to, not only is splitting the party suicide, it also makes it a pain to have to adjucate so many different battles as a GM, so not something that's practical.

You're correct about ob&ana vs grievous though, he was surrounded by other enemies.

The last one is you handwaving the entire battle away by saying they were npc's. Personally I wouldn't let a player be the Chosen One, since that makes him/her constantly hog the spotlight and thus the game a lot less fun for the rest of the group. This makes it more likely that Anakin and Sidious are the pc's and the party being Windu and the other two guys. As Anakin didn't interfere until right at the end (the gm using a Destiny point to save his Nemesis?) that's a prime example of the party fighting a boss solo.

The best thing to do is look to the movies for your examples. In the films, what Big Bad did the PCs ever face down alone?

Not including 1v1 fights, here are a few from the movies that I can think of off the top of my head.

Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul

Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Dooku

Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Dooku (again)

Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Grevious

Mace Windu & some other Jedi vs Palpatine

QG & OW vs DM - There was a massive Gungan battle and a Queen charging the throne room going on at the exact same time two PCs out of the group were fighting the Nemesis (i.e. - Darth Maul).

OB & AK vs DK - Massive Clone Battle going on right outside that all the other PCs were involved in.

OB & AK vs DK v2.0 - Massive Space Battle going on over the capitol world of the Republic that the other PCs would be fighting in, plus R2-D2 was fighting droid minions elsewhere on the same ship.

OB & AK vs GrV - See the above. Also, if you'll recall, Grevious was not alone given he was surrounded by his 4 rival bodyguard droids and a bridge full of minions.

5 Jedi Masters vs Darth Sidious - This is the closest example to a Group vs Boss fight, but it's pretty obvious at least 3 of those Jedi Masters were NPCs and Mace Windu probably would be too. This isn't a Boss fight so much as it is Anakin's transition from PC to NPC Villain.

So, yeah, off the top of my head, I still don't see a lot of group battles versus 1 lone villain in the Star Wars Saga.

I'll give you the Grevious one because I forgot about his guards, but the rest you're stretching. The fact is that those are all examples of a group of good guys facing down 1 bad guy. It doesn't matter if the "party" was split or what else was happening in the universe at that time. Padme assaulting the throne room has no effect on the fight with Darth Maul, either narratively or mechanically.

Another thing to do is cheat. I don't mean the GM should cheat, but the villian should not fight fair.

Hostages rigged to or trapped in a room with a bomb. Fight the boss, innocents die.

Keep what you kill - the pirate next in line thanks the pcs for killing the captain and promoting him, by firing on the ship the players are on or triggering a self destruct.

Sapient shields work wonders. A hostsge as a shield and a despair = dead hostage.

Contigency planning. The boss deactivates the repulsor engines. If you fight him the ship may crash. If you don't he gets away.

Force fields are a shuuta. A destiny point to activate a force field between players and boss.

High ground. Give the boss a vantage point. Make the melee guy work for it.

All of the massive battles weren't exactly fought by the pc's, large amounts of npc's duking it out with little to no effect on the outcome of the nemesis battle, which takes place miles and miles away from that fight isn't exactly an argument in your favour.

Yes, obviously, I was claiming all those characters on screen, clones and droids alike, were PCs. Clearly, that's what I meant.

Yeah, those three Jedi who were never even named in any of the movies and so important as to die virtually instantaneously to the Big Bad Guy were clearly player-characters. They got butchered while the other two stood there.

Sure.

If you want to hang your hat on a scene that's not even a fight, since Palpatine was holding back trying to corrupt Anakin, then go ahead. I'm pretty content with how the evidence stacks up on my end.

I'll give you the Grevious one because I forgot about his guards, but the rest you're stretching. The fact is that those are all examples of a group of good guys facing down 1 bad guy. It doesn't matter if the "party" was split or what else was happening in the universe at that time. Padme assaulting the throne room has no effect on the fight with Darth Maul, either narratively or mechanically.

I'm stretching? Interesting.

You are claiming that TWO characters going up against ONE villain is the equivalent of FOUR to SIX (average party size) player characters going up against ONE Big Bad Guy, but I'm the one who is stretching.

Okay.

Seriously dude, what are you even talking about? What point are you trying to make here other than that you are right? What exactly are you bringing to this discussion and how does it help anyone that's reading this? You are splitting hairs over the definition of a PC, splitting the party, what constitutes the party, and more.

You original post and everything since does nothing but attempt to further your, "I'm right, you're wrong," platform. Your original "contribution" to the discussion was to simply say, essentially, the OP was wrong to do a 1 vs all fight with no justification other than your personal perception of the source material.

How about instead of shitting on everyone else, you bring something constructive to the discussion.

Also, everyone, please let that be the end of it. I'm not going to engage any more and I would recommend that no one else does either (although I fully expect one last angry, trolly, response from him). It will just cause this thread to further devolve into essentially off topic shouting.

Welcome to the forums....It's like herding cats really.....

In regards to the end boss fight thing also most bosses typically don't go it alone. I know there is the titanic Jedi/Sith duels in the movies but really most of the time bosses are using monsters, minions, traps, etc. Trap doors, landmines, sentry guns, stun fields, etc. All the dirty tricks I would consider including in a boss fight.

Seriously dude, what are you even talking about? What point are you trying to make here other than that you are right? What exactly are you bringing to this discussion and how does it help anyone that's reading this? You are splitting hairs over the definition of a PC, splitting the party, what constitutes the party, and more.

You original post and everything since does nothing but attempt to further your, "I'm right, you're wrong," platform. Your original "contribution" to the discussion was to simply say, essentially, the OP was wrong to do a 1 vs all fight with no justification other than your personal perception of the source material.

How about instead of shitting on everyone else, you bring something constructive to the discussion.

Seriously dude, what are you talking about? You're the one who felt the need to correct me about how, obviously, there are tons of Heroic PC Groups vs 1 Singular Villain in the Star Wars movies.

All I did was tell the OP that EotE seems to work better when you throw multiple opponents against the PCs instead of just one Big Bad Guy. That's been my experience with the game.

I've only done what everyone else in the thread has been doing (i.e. - giving their opinion on their game experience). I don't think EotE works well with a 1 vs 6 approach. You can easily pull that off in D&D or Pathfinder or other games when you have something powerful like a dragon to throw at the group. EotE doesn't really run that way.

Yet, somehow, that's trolling? Oh, and I was 'shitting' on him, because I gave him advice he asked for? Okay, sure, yeah.

But, I guess, I've got to give one more "trolly" response, because "I have to be right."

Screw you.

I would not mention he was a force user and use that for the next guy. And have his opening move be a force disarm on the magic vibroswords of planet cleaving.