I think Pressure Point is OP. I think all it does is encourage Marauders to spec 40 pts into Doctor. I think it needs to be changed and this was what I thought up.

It creates a combat check where Brawn and Brawl are replaced with Intellect and Medicine in a weaponless open hand attack. It adds a Stun(Active) effect to the attack equal to ranks in Medicine. It decreases the crit rating on unarmed attacks by ranks of Surgeon. Damage is Strain and calculated the same as a normal Brawl attack using Intellect and uncancelled successes. The Strain caused is subject to soak.

My thought process here is to get the Marauders out of Doctor and to get Doctors to spend xp on being the best Doctor they can be. It tones down the lethality of the 'no soak' aspect, but with the Stun(Active) quality it still creates a pathway to getting substantial Strain past even a high soak.

I had an alternative thought to the crit rating reduction using ranks of Surgeon and to instead have ranks of Surgeon increase the corresponding Disorient on Unarmed attacks.

Comments welcome

The proposed change is too good within the tree. It goes too far to making the high-end doctor a terror in combat despite not developing any combat skill.

I had previously houseruled something simple for it, like it adding Pierce X (X = Medicine) to unarmed Brawl attacks. I think I prefer using some of your version: it adds Stun X to unarmed Brawl attacks. All the rest of your option seems to go too far to me.

As opposed to how it is, which is essentially a bare handed strain lightsaber.

The idea is for it to still be good, just not quite as good, and not just a point sink for Marauders.

I'd prefer it if a Doctor could be a niche-powerhouse if they invested properly in Pressure Point (and possibly related talents), if PP wasn't stackable with all the Marauder goodies which, when combined, make the build OP. In other words, if a Doctor needs more combat talents, disincentivize the Marauder from dipping just for the sake of dipping by preventing those Doctor talents from easily stacking with whatever the Marauder is already bringing to the table.

The problem with HD's approach is that if you don't make Pressure Point fairly attractive no one will ever be a Doctor. I highly doubt a Marauder is going to sink at least 70 xp to add Pierce to unarmed Brawl attacks. I also don't want Marauders buying into the Doctor tree for a combat skill. I don't want Doctors spending xp on combat trees to make their talent work. I want it to be structured in a way where it is good and worth having, and it also encourages a Doctor to max out their Doctoring skills/talents.

If PP gets watered down too much no one will ever bother selecting Doctor. Medic in AoR is a better healer. They get 2 free ranks of Medicine whereas a Doctor gets one. They get Stimpack Specialization. They get Well Rounded. They get access to all the combat skills. They're better healers and really just a better spec overall.

This approach rewards a high Intellect and putting points into Medicine. It gives other high Intellect specs something to look at as well, like Scholar. It actually puts more limitation on damage output as now exists as well.

The problem with HD's approach is that if you don't make Pressure Point fairly attractive no one will ever be a Doctor. I highly doubt a Marauder is going to sink at least 70 xp to add Pierce to unarmed Brawl attacks. I also don't want Marauders buying into the Doctor tree for a combat skill. I don't want Doctors spending xp on combat trees to make their talent work. I want it to be structured in a way where it is good and worth having, and it also encourages a Doctor to max out their Doctoring skills/talents.

If PP gets watered down too much no one will ever bother selecting Doctor. Medic in AoR is a better healer. They get 2 free ranks of Medicine whereas a Doctor gets one. They get Stimpack Specialization. They get Well Rounded. They get access to all the combat skills. They're better healers and really just a better spec overall.

This approach rewards a high Intellect and putting points into Medicine. It gives other high Intellect specs something to look at as well, like Scholar. It actually puts more limitation on damage output as now exists as well.

Pressure Point has to be attractive or no one will ever be a Doctor? Really? I call shenanigans on this one.

I've had a Doctor in my game. The player was totally uninterested in Pressure Point. The character used a blaster pistol (sometimes with Agility boosted via Stim Application) when combat was necessary. They went Doctor to heal and support, not for a knockout punch.

The problem with HD's approach is that if you don't make Pressure Point fairly attractive no one will ever be a Doctor.

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If PP gets watered down too much no one will ever bother selecting Doctor.

Um...well from personal experience I disagree. I played a character who took both specs because he was going to be, y'know, a healer and medical expert. And I've played with people who played a Doctor for the same reason and never looked at Pressure Point (melee range is dangerous!)

I mean I can see how PP is a selling point but the "nobody ever will play one" hyperbole is unwarranted.

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I'd prefer it if a Doctor could be a niche-powerhouse if they invested properly in Pressure Point (and possibly related talents), if PP wasn't stackable with all the Marauder goodies which, when combined, make the build OP. In other words, if a Doctor needs more combat talents, disincentivize the Marauder from dipping just for the sake of dipping by preventing those Doctor talents from easily stacking with whatever the Marauder is already bringing to the table.

This is kind of why I want it more based around what it means to be a Doctor. Most of the combat classes aren't going to be interested in a talent based on Intellect and a support skill.

Perhaps I'm blessed with either good or ignorant players, but no one goes these routes. I have a doctor, she went for mercenary soldier to boost her combat skills and to get into the Leadership talents - she is a notorious botcher of dice, I mean it, she's a walking statistical outlier, the reason why some of us have multiple criticals per combat, have sessions without ever failing a combat check, it's because when she picks up the dice in combat the universe conspires against her by taking all our potentially botched rolls and giving them to her. This applies mainly to combat checks, but some sessions are just horrible for her, yet she enjoys playing - although it's no wonder her and her characters are all a bit paranoid.

Personally I don't find PP to be over powered, but I can see the some combinations are very powerful, but if this is a problem for a GM/group, then make some table rules - for instance in my group we have the basic notion that you cannot increase skills you haven't used or spent in-game time learning more about. You just don't suddenly pick up Knowledge (Lore), unless there's an in-game reason for it. Same with Marauder going Doc - why would s/he? Taking on a specialisation is a big thing in my book, why would someone pick that up without the intention of becoming a medic? Of course, I'm not telling anyone how to run their games.

I definitely would house rule if I had a power gamer wanting to min/max as well. I thought about requiring a 3 Intellect and 1 rank of Medicine bought non career. Dummies don't get into medical school was my thinking. I'd rather see the talent encourage people to just be good Doctors as opposed to use the spec like a custom signature ability for Marauders. So my efforts are more about heading off an issue if someone sits down at my campaign and wants to be one.

Perhaps I'm blessed with either good or ignorant players, but no one goes these routes. [...] Personally I don't find PP to be over powered, but I can see the some combinations are very powerful, but if this is a problem for a GM/group, then make some table rules

Exactly. Dipping into the Doctor spec solely to grab Pressure Point is pure, unadulterated min-maxing cheese, and as a GM, I would never allow it.

The GM is the final arbiter of how a player spends their XP, and a character who is based around physical combat had better have a very, very, very good in-character reason for suddenly pursuing a career in medicine out of the blue. (Likewise, a career Doctor needs a really good reason to suddenly start becoming a martial artist.)

I definitely would house rule if I had a power gamer wanting to min/max as well. I thought about requiring a 3 Intellect and 1 rank of Medicine bought non career. Dummies don't get into medical school was my thinking. I'd rather see the talent encourage people to just be good Doctors as opposed to use the spec like a custom signature ability for Marauders. So my efforts are more about heading off an issue if someone sits down at my campaign and wants to be one.

While statistical requirements like that could make sense, it mainly does so because of our experience with Prestige Classes and stuff like that. The problem with numerical requirements is that those can be met, even if it makes no sense that the character in question becomes a doctor.

It is - in my experience - harder for players to come up with a good in-game reason and rationale for acquiring a new specialisation than it is for them to meet any numerical requirements - make those players use their creative glands to make something plausible up, if they can't, well that's too bad for them, no doc for that marauder. If they succeed in making up a good rationale and reason, then that's fine, but to me there should be some criteria to those stories to be accepted: that the character in question actually starts increasing the medicine skill, acquires medical gear, starts healing the group after and perhaps during combat, becomes interested in the well being of other - not necessarily enemies, but others that suffer. Basically starts to act like a health professional - whether all those samples from those street kids are actually for making a vaccine, or for some other nefarious scheme (enter crazy evil genius doctor archetype) doesn't matter...

Exactly. Dipping into the Doctor spec solely to grab Pressure Point is pure, unadulterated min-maxing cheese, and as a GM, I would never allow it.

Plenty of non pressure point reasons, reasonable skills (cool) and all that resolve and grit.

And from play experience, pressure point wasn't all that even when attached to a marauder (human with medicine as one of his bonus skills so if kinda made sense).

I mean he was kinda dropping everything in one hit way with his mono edged vibroaxe.

I really don't see this as a big issue.

If the Marauder dips into Doctor, they're spending 70 pts to get to Pressure Point, then they're going to spend more points picking up the Medicine skill to make PP worthwhile. Grit and Resolve are nice, but Surgeon is going to likely be a waste, they already have Resilience, they could get Cool elsewhere, and having Education as a Career skill is of dubious value for a Marauder.

Sure, I guess they could then get Anatomy Lessons, but their Intellect is probably 2, so is that ever going to be worth spending a Destiny Point on? Maybe, maybe not. If they aim for the Dedication in the Doctor tree, they're going to get to spend another 60 points, 15 of which is wasted on Bacta Specialist.

Plus, if they're dipping into Doctor just for Pressure Point, that means they get to spend a minimum of 30 points to get into another spec.

Essentially, they'd have to spend 100 points, before and after, to get to Pressure Point and other useful talents, the latter of which they could get in another cheaper and more useful tree in the Hired Gun Career. 100 points is probably 6 or more sessions to get the one talent they really wanted.

I just don't see the issue.