My last two suggestions are such fundamental departures from the current card design that they would in effect be new cards. I feel that the new cards would be better than keeping Unexpected Courage as is, in the card pool, but then we may as well just ban the card.
The problem of Unexpected Courage
My last two suggestions are such fundamental departures from the current card design that they would in effect be new cards. I feel that the new cards would be better than keeping Unexpected Courage as is, in the card pool, but then we may as well just ban the card.
Good thoughts. I agree it is over-powered, perhaps on par with Steward of Gondor, but maybe not more powerful.
I think errata would be ok if they either made it unique or limit one per deck. Simple fix. I only have one core set and do not proxy, so I just use one per deck and it feels balanced for me. (it certainly is unexpected when it comes up, and not vital to winning every game, but very happy to see it up).
yes uc is a broken a bit. I think unique is a solution....
If I had to choose a solution I would go limit 1 per deck. It never really becomes game breaking at that point
I think steward of gondor is more powerful, no?
I only have two core sets so only include 2 copies of UC. The reason I don't think it's that broken is that:
A) LOV is better in some cases (ie spirit glorfindel)
B ) some heroes are only good at one thing (ie eowyn)
C) you don't need multiple options ever turn
In fact using cram is better at times (recycling is possible with the lore dwarf card as well).
You often only need th excess options a few times a game and cram can be enough for most quests.
UC also costs two - same as arwen. If I have two resources floating around I tend to put arwen out first as she gives two quest points and a big defense boost.
I think perhaps making UC unique would be resonable(like arwen and SOG and LOV), or even one per player. But since most people i play with only have one or two core sets we rarely see more then one copy anyways.
I had an article about Unexpected Courage a few months ago, I believe. I think reactions were divided. I fully support the above (or what I wrote before), Unexpected Courage is a problem. I see no problem between Light of Valinor and Rohan Warhorse, they are different sphere, and the Mount keyword will get more support than Condition, probably.
Also, after I began trying to avoid Courage, just because I thought it was a bad design (too powerful), I re-discovered Miruvor, which is great in certain decks, especially in one Spirit hero decks as you can play it on round 1. Also it is an item. But this is totally off the point.
My solution would be as mentioned above: Unexpected Courage, limit one per deck. I think that is much better than making it unique. Also unique makes little sense for such a title.
In fact, for me, Unexpected Courage is not broken. It begins to become over powered when you start piling attachments to one hero and start creating what I call the “Super Heros” (for instance, Legolas with a Rivendell Blade, and a Rivendell Bow and a Dagger of Westernessee and 3 marks of Dunedain and 3 unexpected courage).
A good way to diminish this “super Heros” aspect (especially of the solo game) is to consider all attachment to be restricted. Thus, Unexpected Courage will not be overpowered.
Edited by CourchevelI think it is not over-powered. Novice players always want to play it, like stewards of gondor, and feint, etc. But after, when you have more experience, you prefer other options, first of all, for fun. But there are other reasons, for exemple, i prefer miruvor or cram, when you know good games only need 3 rounds to win, more or less, and unexpected becomes expensive for it. Miruvor or cram are enough for it.
PD: i remember lots of moments that one player put in table a copy of UC and say 'who wants?' and nobody answer
. Finally one says: myself... but only for not lossing the card, lol.
The fact is the card is not needed to win by any means. And actually within the Spirit sphere, not many heroes absolutely crave for it, far from it. But I think the OP has the same point I do: it is a problem when compared to other cards, and that is not only a problem for players but for designers also, it restricts their development. I agree it would be best to "correct" this before it is too late. 1 per deck cannot hurt anything. The errata is there already, so why not here?
Mndela - the number of better options for readying are very specific (and limited in many ways) You suggest that Miruvor or Cram would be better. They do have the advantage of an initial cost being cheaper (you can play down more right at the start). In a really short quest them being one use may not be a problem and they might edge out UC but it's quest specific.
Miruvor costs you one resource a turn to maintain 'and' prevents you drawing anything else without other card draw. That means that it maintains your boardstate while the quest progresses. Sometimes that's okay sometimes it isn't. You can fetch these attachments back with other cards, but that's devoting more cards and effort than UC requires.
I'm afraid I don't believe you when you say no one wants UC (except that you want to avoid it for fun). UC is almost always better than any of the cost 1 options because of increased flexibility, and better than the cost 0 options because it will be maintained round after round, as long as readying is what you want the card for.
In fact the only real times that UC is worse are:
You only have 1 spirit resource turn 1, and you need the ready effect turn 1. (In which case Miruvor edges it out).
You're playing Spirit Glorfindel and you have Valinor available, and you wany Glorfindel to be questing.
You're expecting a random attachment destruction effect and so don't want to potentially waste 2 resources. (Although in this case any attachment would be better in hand unless you have no non attachment options).
You expect the game to last 3 rounds at most AND can't play UC turn 1 but could play a 1 cost alternative turn 1, but you still need the ready effect turn 1 - otherwise you're better waiting for turn 2 to get UC.
Obviously Miruvor has other options for flexibility that make it desirable: it can be a cost 0, +1 willpower effect instead, it can be a quest at +1 willpower and ready effect, It can even be a cost 0 put this on top of your deck irreverent card that stalls gamestate for the player and no one else (I've never seen it used for this purpose - but maybe if you knew the top card of your deck was going to be turned into poison it might be nice).
UC is just better for readying though.
Thanks to everyone that took the time to read. It looks like it belongs on a blog rather than a post.
I think steward of gondor is more powerful, no?
I only have two core sets so only include 2 copies of UC. The reason I don't think it's that broken is that:
A) LOV is better in some cases (ie spirit glorfindel)
B ) some heroes are only good at one thing (ie eowyn)
C) you don't need multiple options ever turn
In fact using cram is better at times (recycling is possible with the lore dwarf card as well).
You often only need th excess options a few times a game and cram can be enough for most quests.
UC also costs two - same as arwen. If I have two resources floating around I tend to put arwen out first as she gives two quest points and a big defense boost.
I think perhaps making UC unique would be resonable(like arwen and SOG and LOV), or even one per player. But since most people i play with only have one or two core sets we rarely see more then one copy anyways.
Rapier, I am only happy you did now. And you give some great points. I was basically comparing UC in the light of the (then) new Steed of the Mark. The horse paled badly in comparison, especially as it came in the same sphere. Warhorse is Tactics where there are no readying attachments, so that is less of a problem, I feel.
I like your example of the Steward in the latter game, you need cards to work with it, though the accumulated wealth can be now more useful than before thanks to Gondorian Fire, Blood of Númenor and Lay of Nimrodel (we had had Map-maker before but these new ones work much better in that regard).
Unexpected Courage is perfectly fine.
Rapier, I am only happy you did now. And you give some great points. I was basically comparing UC in the light of the (then) new Steed of the Mark. The horse paled badly in comparison, especially as it came in the same sphere. Warhorse is Tactics where there are no readying attachments, so that is less of a problem, I feel.
I like your example of the Steward in the latter game, you need cards to work with it, though the accumulated wealth can be now more useful than before thanks to Gondorian Fire, Blood of Númenor and Lay of Nimrodel (we had had Map-maker before but these new ones work much better in that regard).
Those cards make resource acceleration a lot more useful - potentially making Steward too good in itself (It allows you to get resource acceleration at no cost turn 1 and then benefit forever after) - more of a problem even is that steward of Gondor allows Blood of Numenor and Gondorian Fire to be used every round and still get better every round.
Even then however without readying effects you can only get your big attack or defense once per turn - which is an alternative way of say, just stacking gondorian shields. Lay of Nimrodel is probably the best but that's an event so to keep using that you need to cycle events out of the discard as well.
If I was in charge of doing the errata - I would be looking at UC and Steward, but I think UC is superior in more situations and also far more superior in terms of relative card design.
Wow there is a lot thoughts about this card.
I don't have any problems with unexpected courage the way that it is. I don't mind that some cards are more 'powerful' or cheaper or easier to use than other cards - especially cards that are included in the core set... such as unexpected courage or Steward of Gondor etc...
This card i s no longer an auto include for me, or others by the sounds of things. There are many different fun ways to build decks without it or Steward of Gondor or [enter name of 'overpowered' card here]. I would hope UC remains unchanged.
Wow there is a lot thoughts about this card.
I don't have any problems with unexpected courage the way that it is. I don't mind that some cards are more 'powerful' or cheaper or easier to use than other cards - especially cards that are included in the core set... such as unexpected courage or Steward of Gondor etc...
This card i s no longer an auto include for me, or others by the sounds of things. There are many different fun ways to build decks without it or Steward of Gondor or [enter name of 'overpowered' card here]. I would hope UC remains unchanged.
Can I ask why it isn't an auto include? Mndela implies that is isn't because it just isn't fun.
I also recognize that it isn't an autoinclude if you don't want ready effects on heroes (ally dwarf build for instance).
Being able to build without it does not mean it isn't overpowered.
And more importantly, doesn't mean it isn't making the design alot harder and narrower for the game designers.
Edited by RapierUnexpected Courage is perfectly fine.
Wonderful argument...
Unexpected Courage is perfectly fine.
Wonderful argument...
Why thank you.
UC is an ok card. It's definitely not overpowered, as it can be removed by shadow effects (which happens more often lately). Allies are more important, and I'd always prefer to play Arwen or Westroad Traveller to UC. Especially early in the game you want to have some allies out in the game.
Most heroes don't need UC, as their stats are weak (Hobbits) or onesided in their abilities (Eowyn). However, there are some heroes that beg for this card - Gimli, Faramir, Aragorn etc. Heroes that are good in all departments, and who are not that awesome because you can only use one of their abilities. The other abilities are still neat, but you cannot use them. Instead ypu have a deck with a high starting threat and you think "well, if I'd wanted a 2 WP hero, I could have taken a Hobbit". With UC though, you have a hero that has 2 WP and 3 ATT. Sounds a lot better. Ok, not so much if you only have one copy like me (LIKE IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE
).
I get the impression a lot of people are misconstruing Rapier's insights and missing the point. He's not just talking about UC, but the bad precedent UC has set in later card design, which I agree with.
I like the two ideas of increasing its cost to 3 and making it unique with a twist; Unique per player.
I get the impression a lot of people are misconstruing Rapier's insights and missing the point. He's not just talking about UC, but the bad precedent UC has set in later card design, which I agree with.
I like the two ideas of increasing its cost to 3 and making it unique with a twist; Unique per player.
You say in one sentence what I took 3 pages to write
This is exactly what I'm concerned about. If UC was just a good card, I would accept that some cards have to be better. UC is more than just a good card; it's a design breaking card. (The design being the hero readying attachment).
Wow there is a lot thoughts about this card.
I don't have any problems with unexpected courage the way that it is. I don't mind that some cards are more 'powerful' or cheaper or easier to use than other cards - especially cards that are included in the core set... such as unexpected courage or Steward of Gondor etc...
This card i s no longer an auto include for me, or others by the sounds of things. There are many different fun ways to build decks without it or Steward of Gondor or [enter name of 'overpowered' card here]. I would hope UC remains unchanged.
Can I ask why it isn't an auto include? Mndela implies that is isn't because it just isn't fun.
I also recognize that it isn't an autoinclude if you don't want ready effects on heroes (ally dwarf build for instance).
Being able to build without it does not mean it isn't overpowered.
And more importantly, doesn't mean it isn't making the design alot harder and narrower for the game designers.
For lots of reasons:
1) Many different event, attachment and even ally cards that ready heroes - Miruvor, fast Hitch, Cram, Naith Scout, Rider of the mark, Rohan/Dwarven/Leadership events (new 'Aragorn' attachment) etc..
2) Heroes with reading actions; Prince Imrahil, Sam, Tactics Boromir, Aragon, Elledan, Elrohir, Merry, Brand...
3) Ally focus rather than heroes doing everything.
4) One d imensional heroes like Eowyn who doesn't warrant readying (in most cases)
5) Soloing with the ability to strike into the staging area, negating most defending and reducing readiness requirements. ie Dunhere + weapons or Rangers/Traps/scrying
6) Mono Tactics, Leadership, Lore deck... or Mono Spirit with using Tracker styled Caldara deck; ie Eowyn doesn't warrant it, Glori has LoV & Caldara keeps
running away to get help
dying)
7) Boring to use the same toys all the time.
8) Cost... there are times when 2 spirit resources are better spent else where
I agree that being able to exclude this card doesn't therefore make it not 'overpowered'. I s imply don't think of it as overpowered. The variety of different options available is one of the main reason don't think of it like this.
I get the impression a lot of people are misconstruing Rapier's insights and missing the point. He's not just talking about UC, but the bad precedent UC has set in later card design, which I agree with.
I like the two ideas of increasing its cost to 3 and making it unique with a twist; Unique per player.
You say in one sentence what I took 3 pages to write
![]()
This is exactly what I'm concerned about. If UC was just a good card, I would accept that some cards have to be better. UC is more than just a good card; it's a design breaking card. (The design being the hero readying attachment).
Increasing Unexpected Courage cost to 3 would kill it.
I get the impression a lot of people are misconstruing Rapier's insights and missing the point. He's not just talking about UC, but the bad precedent UC has set in later card design, which I agree with.
I like the two ideas of increasing its cost to 3 and making it unique with a twist; Unique per player.
Yes. I think that is the misunderstanding here. The main point of the thread, as I see it, is in future (or even current) design development. Action advantage is one of the main aspects of the game, and Unexpected Courage messes up other similar cards, like Steed of the Mark.