I'm not sure how many have attempted to play this new format yet. I've tried 4+ rounds at the 60 point level. Each time flying rebels. I'm not incompetent as a player and I was playing against players whom I regularly beat with almost any rebel build I choose. If it's not a win it's definitely close, even with non-competitive builds.

My problem with this format is this, first round

Howlrunner with stealth

3x Academy ties.

This is greater than any rebel list except possibly all Awings, but I've yet to test that, I don't have enough of them.

The games I have played haven't been close they have been decisive routs. The closest I have been so far is with Chewie and a Y-wing, simply for the sheer # of hit points.

Rebels are extremely limited at this level, there are few choices, a fully upgraded Falcon, a falcon with 1 support ship or Awing.

3 Ship rebel all low skilled good luck.

2 ships with high Pilot Skill and upgrades.

If people think I'm wrong, don't sit here and say how wrong I am, go play test against howlrunner etc with rebels. Against a decently skilled player, ie someone who can go to regionals and expect to win a few games.

Two players of similar skill level, provided that the dice are average and no extreme case of streaking happens(ie dice decides the game, we've all had streaks like that) Howrunner and company will win every time.

To me, the beauty of this game is that as long as the points are balanced most decent combinations have a chance. I don't want to have to play the 1 or 2 single counter to Howlrunner I prefer the variety to fit different playstyles etc.

As it exists there is no reliable counter (ie 50/50) chance of winning assuming equally skilled players.

I can think of plenty of imperial counters, just nothing on the rebel side. I've also tested this in our local league and a number of members who watched or played agree with me, this is not a balanced equation.

The next wave may change things, but so far, I don't think so. I think most of us with experience have a decent idea how the new ships will fit into the game and I don't see this balance issue fixing itself. Still there are some upgrade cards and at least one pilot whom may make enough of a difference. Still I don't want to have to build just to counter one imperial build.

Again

60 point list

Howlrunner with Stealth

3x Academy Ties

57pts

90 point list

Bounty Hunter

Howlrunner with Stealth

3x Academy Ties

120

Bounty Hunter with upgrades

Howlrunner with Stealth

5x Academy Ties

150

Bounty Hunter with upgrades

Howlrunner with Stealth

7x Academy Ties

Please I ask people to go playtest this. This isn't about theory of what is good/bad, this is experience over a number of games. I'm asking the community to test this because as of now, I don't see balance here, I see one build that = insta win and the competing faction with no answer.

One build I have as of yet to try is 2 Bwings with sensor Jammer.

Still I don't want to be a one trick pony to defeat another one trick pony.

Once you get the Headhunter, this problem will evaporate some, as you will be able to have cheap filler around 1-2 solid ships. The rules may be forward-thinking to Wave 4 and beyond.

The other route is that a tricked out Falcon is REALLY challenging at this low point level, so play fire with fire.

Behold, the dominant metagame.
As people crack the 60 point Swarm, the metagame will shift.

What is Swarm bad against?

• Fleets with high HP
• Ships with high Agility
• Ships with high Zone-Control
• Guaranteed Damage
• Ships with good blocking potential
• Asteroid Thickets

Make a fleet that hits these dots fairly well, and you'll not have so much of a problem with them.

I can theorycraft as well as most people here.

I'm asking you to go test this, not give me your ideas, I've got lot's of ideas, not one makes this appear balanced.

Also, the rules may be forward thinking, but we only have the ships now to play with, especially in tournament format. I was excited about a new format, I was looking forward to the change of pace. After a while you get tired of seeing mostly tournament lists showing up in league play.

I don't think the z-95 will be as helpful as you may think, I do think some of the upgrades coming out will be, but as of now we don't have them.

I know you said you don't think the next wave will change things but.......

Lieutenant Blount w/ Assault Missiles (22)

Luke Skywalker w/ R2-D2 and Shield Upgrade (36)

Blount will drill a hole into the swarm and take care of the stealth device for you and Luke is almost impossible to kill with 2 ties. Now the question becomes what can a swarm do as this 58 point rebel squad completely shuts them down?

Yes, not by me, but yes. FFG has many playtesters around the world as well as in-house to test the rules and interactions of the huge ships and Epic play formats.

I took a decked out Chewie to the Escalation tourney at Worlds 2013 and won against Howl and 3 TIEs (1st round). I got a little hosed because the mod win rules were different at the time but still, in quick answer: yes, rebels can beat Howl + 3 TIEs at 60 points.

I took a decked out Chewie to the Escalation tourney at Worlds 2013 and won against Howl and 3 TIEs (1st round). I got a little hosed because the mod win rules were different at the time but still, in quick answer: yes, rebels can beat Howl + 3 TIEs at 60 points.

For that matter Han Solo w/ Marksmanship and Gunner (54) would cut down a mini tie swarm fairly well.

I took a decked out Chewie to the Escalation tourney at Worlds 2013 and won against Howl and 3 TIEs (1st round). I got a little hosed because the mod win rules were different at the time but still, in quick answer: yes, rebels can beat Howl + 3 TIEs at 60 points.

For that matter Han Solo w/ Marksmanship and Gunner (54) would cut down a mini tie swarm fairly well.

I think for escalation, EH to get out of the ties' arcs would be worth it more then having double offensive actions, but that is probably more of a personal choice decision.

I took a decked out Chewie to the Escalation tourney at Worlds 2013 and won against Howl and 3 TIEs (1st round). I got a little hosed because the mod win rules were different at the time but still, in quick answer: yes, rebels can beat Howl + 3 TIEs at 60 points.

For that matter Han Solo w/ Marksmanship and Gunner (54) would cut down a mini tie swarm fairly well.

Chewy is hard to get to 60 points really. Han not so hard.

Now I tried this against a very good player today as a test using howl and company.

Chewy with Luke, Millennium Falcon, Engine Upgrade, C3P0 and Expert Handling

He barely had a chance at all.

Round 1 and 2 we screamed towards each other.

Round 3 he came in at an angle and I boosted up to his side only taking 2 shots. -2 Shields. I got 1 tie down by 2 hp with Luke.

Round 4 he koigran turned and I expert handling to range 3 of the hurt tie fighter and did 2 damage to her again with Luke for the kill. Howlrunner had no shot.

Round 5 he closed in and I did a green maneuver and evaded. He hit with Howlrunner and i spent the evade at range 2. C3P0 negated an attack and I took some -2 shields. Howlrunner died to the one shot.

Round 6 I expert handling again and evaded all fire arcs and shot a tie with Luke for a crit doing a Direct Hit.

Round 7 I used my shenanegains again and killed the hurt Tie.

Round 8 he said chewy with EH and Engine should be banned. Jokingly.

Nobody's using Flight Instructor against swarms?

Nobody's using Flight Instructor against swarms?

I rather doubt that folks rememebered that it exists.

It goes quite well next to C-3p0, though.

"I will roll 0 evades"

**rolls blank**

"I have rolled 0 evades, and get a free Evade result."

**re-rolls**

**spends evade token"

"I have just dodged all 3 of your hits. Come at me, bro!"

I firmly believe a loaded up falcon is a much more challenging 60pt squad than HR and 3 academies. I've tried all kinds of builds to take down Han with gunner and marksmanship and I haven't found anything I like.

If I remember to do this, a few Rebel 60pt lists come to mind that should stand a decent chance of getting a 50/50 W/L rate against that. Ion cannons will figure into it.

So the only answer is a fully loaded up falcon? Sorry that proves my point, 1 or 2 answers still means that this format is unbalanced. For balance to exist I expect other builds to work also but so far I don't see it.

Also C3PO isn't available for tournament play yet.

At 100 points there are multiple configurations from both factions that can defeat a tie swarm, doesn't mean it's easy. But definitely possible.

Anti-YT1300 list

Blue Squadron Pilot + HLC + FCS

Blue Squadron Pilot + HLC

Might be a fair fight

So the only answer is a fully loaded up falcon? Sorry that proves my point, 1 or 2 answers still means that this format is unbalanced. For balance to exist I expect other builds to work also but so far I don't see it.

Also C3PO isn't available for tournament play yet.

At 100 points there are multiple configurations from both factions that can defeat a tie swarm, doesn't mean it's easy. But definitely possible.

It proves you don't really want to list build, you'd rather have the answers given to you. I chimed in because it sounded like you genuinely wanted help or proof that it could be done. I had hoped that such proof would spark some interest in finding other ways to combat this list you fear. Since this obviously failed, I'd suggest that this tournament style isn't for you. You will likely find the regular Dogfight rules or the new Epic rules more to your liking.

Ibitsam w/ PTL + Engine upgrade

Blue sqd w/ Adv sensors.

Done deal.

I feel like the rebels are definitely at a disadvantage in the 60 point spread. Though, on the other hand, Imps could say that they're forced into Tie Swarms because without an advantage of more ships, they will lose.

Don't let it get you down. I would suggest a YT w/ Assault missiles (a good hit will take more than 1/3 of their HP), though you might have issues landing it.

You could also try Blue Squadron + Autoblaster + FCS and Blue Squadron + HLC + FCS. Or drop the FCS's and give one Engine Upgrade. If you split up, they'll either have to soak long range pot shots without the extra die or ignore uncancellable (haha, is that a word?) hits. You might lose B-Wing one but not both. \

ADDITION: From experience, I wouldn't do the 2 B-Wing's with HLC's. The Ties can close range real fast so one of those HLC's will be a waste of points.

I'd happily take 2 Rooks and a Prototype to that TIE party.

'Well of Howlrunner got blocked and now isn't at range 1 to any of your TIES?'

'Rooks, open fire!'

So the challenge is Howl (beefed up) and 3 Academies and I have 60 points to spend on a Rebel fleet?

Kyle+Determination+Recon+Blaster+Moldy Crow

Dutch+Ion

(drops microphone)

My plan is to keep Howl with a constant Ion token, and let the other TIEs fly merrily on their way without any support and pick them off. Done deal. However, I won't have time to try this until possibly later this week.

So I just got back from playing a few rounds. I brought:

Kyle+Determination+Recon+Blaster+Moldy Crow

Dutch+Ion

He brought:

Howlrunner

Alpha

Academy x2

First game, the Rebel fleet won without loosing a ship (both only had one hull left).

Second game, we switched sides. (To test the build, not the player skill.) The Rebel fleet won again, but only a battered Y wing was left.

The star for both games, for the Rebels, was the Y-wing. Dutch really screwed things up for the Empire with that Ion cannon and free TLs. Kyle was there to finish the job. For the Empire, the Alpha was the star. That guy hit hard and dropped the HWK in the second game. Just not soon enough.

Point being, don't fear the 60 point swarm. The Rebel scum have the tools and talents to contend.