While I really like the game as is, I do think that higher level pilots are over priced for their abilities. I think that one possible way to adjust the value is by allowing the pilots above level 6 and that have a + 2 in pilot level above the ship they are shooting at or that is shooting at them have an ability to modify the attack and agility. Possibly add 1 to each in that case. At that rate you are better than lower level pilots, but are still not over powering. It would also mean no changes to any cards. It might even help Darth in the Advanced. A minimum of changes for an improvement that would fit easily into the game.

In all fairness to Boba, if you watch the films he's pretty lousy in combat. His only moment of glory was predicting Han's trash drop move. When he actually gets into a fight Luke basically kills him on accident.

Luke cuts Boba's wire he coiled around him. When Luke approaches Boba, Boba pulls his gun which Luke quickly severs. Boba then flies to another ship. It is actually a still-blind Han Solo that accidentally breaks Boba Fett's jetpack, neutering any sense of coolness the character has, as he yells and tumbles down into the Salacc Pit.

Fair enough, point is he was totally anemic in his "moment of glory" makes you wonder what he could have been if Mace hadn't wasted Jango. Then again Jango also did not fight well. The only person any fett has killed on screen was that changling who was on their team.

Fair enough, point is he was totally anemic in his "moment of glory" makes you wonder what he could have been if Mace hadn't wasted Jango. Then again Jango also did not fight well. The only person any fett has killed on screen was that changling who was on their team.

I think Jango killed a nameless Jedi when he tried to attack Dooku in Episode 2.

To be fair, Boba was in the employ of Jabba the Hutt as a Bounty Hunter. In EP 5, Vader gathers several Bounty Hunters to track down Luke Skywalker and bring him alive. Boba at this point is also after the bounty on Han Solo. Boba comes up with a plan he enacts with Vader and some Stormtroopers. None of the other Bounty Hunters are shown after that one scene. They were all shown for no apparent reason. Their inclusion on that scene is pretty worthless other than to show how desperate Vader is to find Luke. Boba both captures Han Solo and draws Luke out for Vader. He was excellent at Bounty Hunting. His entire purpose in EP 5 was then fulfilled. Nobody ever claimed he was good at fighting. He just looked cool.

I always found it a bit strange that so little of the stats, actions and even traits differs between a high skill and a low skill pilot. Perhaps a good alternative could be to have a cost modifier of the upgade cards based on pilot skill, so that some of the upgrades would become cheaper for high skilled pilots. Although that still wouldn't show a big difference in many cases, especially between to PS close to each other.

One thing that could conceivably be improved upon is placement rules.

As it stands, each game more or less begins with a joust. This limits the utility of the later placement of higher skill pilots. Ideally you would want to be able to start Wedge or Vader in a flanking position or behind their opponent.

There are a lot of options for house rules and scenarios and such. X-wing is better suited to casual play in many ways.

How's this sound:

Pilot Skill 1-3 ships must start at least range 3 from the edge of the board

PS 4-6 must start at least range 2 from the edge of the board

PS 7-9 may be placed any distance from the edge

I just pulled the idea out of thin air, but I feel it could potentially improve the Dogfight tournament format.

If all (or even "just" most) of your games are jousting games then it might be an idea to change the meta and try maneuvering around the first 2-3 rounds trying to position your ships better instead of baiting in to jousting??

While I really like the game as is, I do think that higher level pilots are over priced for their abilities. I think that one possible way to adjust the value is by allowing the pilots above level 6 and that have a + 2 in pilot level above the ship they are shooting at or that is shooting at them have an ability to modify the attack and agility. Possibly add 1 to each in that case. At that rate you are better than lower level pilots, but are still not over powering. It would also mean no changes to any cards. It might even help Darth in the Advanced. A minimum of changes for an improvement that would fit easily into the game.

While I'm not certain I love the particular solution, I like the concept. Constructing a rules-based way to adjust for PS without having to add more cards.

'When a named pilot attacks an unnamed pilot with a lower PS, gain 1 additional attack die.'

Honestly though, it could wreck balance pretty quickly, but would likely bring 3 ship Reb and 4 ship Imp builds back into the fold.

Giving green or red dice modifers for high PS is game breaking. Look at the cost of cards that give a bonus attack die: they are always expensive and come with significant strings attached (opportunist and expose). Even the HLC which gives effectively +1 attack die (and only at range 2/3 because only ships that can take it have 3 attack already) costs 7 pts and still has a disadvantage (crits get changed to hits before modifying dice). Imagine if Wedge had 4 attack dice all the time (5 @ r1).

IMO, EPTs are going to help make higher PS more worthwhile as the next waves come out - one of the reasons I'm looking forward to future releases.

But, if someone wanted to houserule an advantage for high PS vs low PS, I'd stick to giving re-rolls or changing blanks to 'eye' or something like that, since it increases the mean without adding more 'spikiness' that would make one-hit kills more likely.

Spitballing: if your PS is at least 3 higher (or double your opponent?), you can change 1 blank to an eye on either attack or evade roll. This would make focus a bit more valuable (and abilities that give more focus). I don't think it would be game-breaking, but needs playtesting, of course.

Alternatively, you could give out a bonus re-roll, but that devalues the target lock action (and targeting comp by extension), predator (when it comes out) and also howlrunner, jonus & krassis' abilities. So that seems like a bad idea...

Something you see a little is some pilots have less shield/ hull. The example I can think if this is the generic smuggler card with the falcon. His hull/ shield is something like 6/4 instead of 8/5.

Which is the least sensical set of stats to manipulate... Shield and Hull wouldn't change based on pilots. But accuracy and agility would.

All the named pilots of the YT flew the Millennium Falcon, which was significantly modified beyond a normal YT. That's why its stats are better.

Something you see a little is some pilots have less shield/ hull. The example I can think if this is the generic smuggler card with the falcon. His hull/ shield is something like 6/4 instead of 8/5.

Which is the least sensical set of stats to manipulate... Shield and Hull wouldn't change based on pilots. But accuracy and agility would.

All the named pilots of the YT flew the Millennium Falcon, which was significantly modified beyond a normal YT. That's why its stats are better.

I find almost all accusations of something being over-cost amusing. Particularly when it is something like PS. I personally disagree that PS is over cost. But if you think it is then now you know how to build a more efficient list. Avoid spending points on PS. However this isn't my experience. Most accusations of things being over-cost come from people who have taken them and had bad experiences. It seems to me that they feel like the game is wrong because it didn't work the way they wanted it to.

I find spending points on PS to be a very subtle issue in X-wing. The easiest way to go is to simply ignore it and buy as many of the low PS ships as you can. If you buy a ship with a higher PS you do it for its ability not its PS. And these lists aren't bad lists. I think just about everyone who plays X-wing decides that this is the best way to build after playing just a little bit.

There have been lots of time where I felt like I wasted points on PS. This usually happens when I upgraded my PS but it didn't really matter when I compare my PS to my opponents. My first game ever I bought a bunch of Obsidian and Black Squadron Pilots. Then spent my whole day fighting named pilots.

But like I said PS is a subtle game. If you don't like how it works in this game. I guess I am fine with that. You are entitled to your opinion. I really like it. If you think it is overpriced, then don't pay for it. That was an easy problem to solve.

I will say that Wedge, Soontir, Tycho, Han Solo, or even Howelrunner don't need to hit any harder, or be any harder to kill. These guys at the top of the PS ladder are beasts (except Howelrunner and she is even better than a beast)

I find almost all accusations of something being over-cost amusing. Particularly when it is something like PS. I personally disagree that PS is over cost. But if you think it is then now you know how to build a more efficient list. Avoid spending points on PS. However this isn't my experience. Most accusations of things being over-cost come from people who have taken them and had bad experiences. It seems to me that they feel like the game is wrong because it didn't work the way they wanted it to.

I find spending points on PS to be a very subtle issue in X-wing. The easiest way to go is to simply ignore it and buy as many of the low PS ships as you can. If you buy a ship with a higher PS you do it for its ability not its PS. And these lists aren't bad lists. I think just about everyone who plays X-wing decides that this is the best way to build after playing just a little bit.

There have been lots of time where I felt like I wasted points on PS. This usually happens when I upgraded my PS but it didn't really matter when I compare my PS to my opponents. My first game ever I bought a bunch of Obsidian and Black Squadron Pilots. Then spent my whole day fighting named pilots.

But like I said PS is a subtle game. If you don't like how it works in this game. I guess I am fine with that. You are entitled to your opinion. I really like it. If you think it is overpriced, then don't pay for it. That was an easy problem to solve.

I will say that Wedge, Soontir, Tycho, Han Solo, or even Howelrunner don't need to hit any harder, or be any harder to kill. These guys at the top of the PS ladder are beasts (except Howelrunner and she is even better than a beast)

That's a huge vulnerability.

Something you see a little is some pilots have less shield/ hull. The example I can think if this is the generic smuggler card with the falcon. His hull/ shield is something like 6/4 instead of 8/5.

Which is the least sensical set of stats to manipulate... Shield and Hull wouldn't change based on pilots. But accuracy and agility would.

All the named pilots of the YT flew the Millennium Falcon, which was significantly modified beyond a normal YT. That's why its stats are better.

The YT that the named pilots fly is a vastly different ship than the ORS. I think its cool that it was treated as such. The fact that two named YT pilots fit inside of a 100 point game is a different story. (I always new Han had a back up Falcon stashed away. Chewie was always working on one while Han flew the other.)

I don't have much of a problem with more than one good (Falcon level) ship. Of course there are tons of YT-1300, but many many many of them have been highly modified. Yes, Han and Chewy probably use the same modified YT-1300 but they don't have too. It is perfectly reasonably that Lando might have a modified freighter of his own.

That falcon is better. Sure all it can do is the evade action, but if you are in a YT-1300 that evade action is golden.

Something you see a little is some pilots have less shield/ hull. The example I can think if this is the generic smuggler card with the falcon. His hull/ shield is something like 6/4 instead of 8/5.

Which is the least sensical set of stats to manipulate... Shield and Hull wouldn't change based on pilots. But accuracy and agility would.

All the named pilots of the YT flew the Millennium Falcon, which was significantly modified beyond a normal YT. That's why its stats are better.

The YT that the named pilots fly is a vastly different ship than the ORS. I think its cool that it was treated as such. The fact that two named YT pilots fit inside of a 100 point game is a different story. (I always knew Han had a back up Falcon stashed away. Chewie was always working on one while Han flew the other.)

I don't think add ing a Green Dice against Lower PS pilots would be broken, but I agree Red Dice would be. A single Green dice doesn't help much. It could be comboed into some scary things (SD Corran Horn with R2F2 at rang 3 through an Asteroid(8 defense dice). But at his point cost it doesn't seem broken because repositioning cuts off 2 of those, action denial cuts another, Wedge eats him for Brekfast and 5-6 dice still has trouble evading 3 hits reliably.

Explain to me how paying for PS9 when PS3 would shoot before half the ships in the metagame is worth 5-6 points? Becase that's roughly what it costs Wedge. Especially when moving last isn't a good thing on his ship. All it does is make him better at Target Locking, which isn't always the best option and only matter a few rounds a game, and shoot first. None of that is worth the points spent. Your argument that nothing is overcosted is flawed. If I pay 15 points in Pilot Skill(3 elite X-wings) and face a squad that put in 0(all minimum pilot skill ships they have a whole extra ship over me. Maybe 2.

That's a huge vulnerability.

Well if PS is the sweet spot, the PS 9 at least shoots before the ships with PS 3. I can't speak to more to the metagame, because that is the way the game is played now, not the only way it could be played.

However my point on PS 9 was that they all had awesome pilot abilities. Much of what you pay for in your PS 9 ship is there abilities.

Moving second isn't good because of moving, it is great because of actions. There are some actions that it really helps. Barrel-Roll and Boost are awesome if you move late in the game, and only barely useful if you don't. TL is another action that is more useful for higher PS pilots, especially if you want to get off those range 3 missiles or torpedoes.

My arguments wasn't so much that anything is over-cost or not. My argument was that if you think it is PS is over-cost then why are you complaining about finding a good way to play the game. Spam Academy Pilots and Rookie Squadron.

I believe that playing a few Low PS / High ship number squadrons you will learn to see what you are missing when you don't have higher PS. If I wrong, awesome sauce for you. Now you can defeat anyone who disagrees with you on the issue of PS. Or at least you have a significant advantage. The is the one of the reasons of point buy systems like this. You have the option to spend your points in a way that you think is more effective than your opponent.

Lastly you said buying 3 elite x-wings costs you 15 points. And that this cost you a ship or maybe two. The cheapest ship currently available to the Rebellion is the Prototype Pilot (A-wing PS1), it costs 17 points. So 15 points isn't quite a ship. (yes it is to the Empire, but comparing X-wings to TIEs straight up and just counting ships isn't really a fair comparison, it still isn't even close to 2 ships)

Now if you take the three highest X-wing Pilots available Wedge, Luke, and Gavrin, it costs you 20 points over simply buying Rookie Pilots. That is almost another rookie pilot, but not quite, it is definitely another A-wing. (still not two ships even if you have headhunters). And again lets not forget that Wedge, Luke and Gavrin all have awesome skills.

Explain to me how paying for PS9 when PS3 would shoot before half the ships in the metagame is worth 5-6 points? Becase that's roughly what it costs Wedge. Especially when moving last isn't a good thing on his ship. All it does is make him better at Target Locking, which isn't always the best option and only matter a few rounds a game, and shoot first. None of that is worth the points spent. Your argument that nothing is overcosted is flawed. If I pay 15 points in Pilot Skill(3 elite X-wings) and face a squad that put in 0(all minimum pilot skill ships they have a whole extra ship over me. Maybe 2.

That's a huge vulnerability.

Well if PS is the sweet spot, the PS 9 at least shoots before the ships with PS 3. I can't speak to more to the metagame, because that is the way the game is played now, not the only way it could be played.

However my point on PS 9 was that they all had awesome pilot abilities. Much of what you pay for in your PS 9 ship is there abilities.

Moving second isn't good because of moving, it is great because of actions. There are some actions that it really helps. Barrel-Roll and Boost are awesome if you move late in the game, and only barely useful if you don't. TL is another action that is more useful for higher PS pilots, especially if you want to get off those range 3 missiles or torpedoes.

My arguments wasn't so much that anything is over-cost or not. My argument was that if you think it is PS is over-cost then why are you complaining about finding a good way to play the game. Spam Academy Pilots and Rookie Squadron.

I believe that playing a few Low PS / High ship number squadrons you will learn to see what you are missing when you don't have higher PS. If I wrong, awesome sauce for you. Now you can defeat anyone who disagrees with you on the issue of PS. Or at least you have a significant advantage. The is the one of the reasons of point buy systems like this. You have the option to spend your points in a way that you think is more effective than your opponent.

Lastly you said buying 3 elite x-wings costs you 15 points. And that this cost you a ship or maybe two. The cheapest ship currently available to the Rebellion is the Prototype Pilot (A-wing PS1), it costs 17 points. So 15 points isn't quite a ship. (yes it is to the Empire, but comparing X-wings to TIEs straight up and just counting ships isn't really a fair comparison, it still isn't even close to 2 ships)

Now if you take the three highest X-wing Pilots available Wedge, Luke, and Gavrin, it costs you 20 points over simply buying Rookie Pilots. That is almost another rookie pilot, but not quite, it is definitely another A-wing. (still not two ships even if you have headhunters). And again lets not forget that Wedge, Luke and Gavrin all have awesome skills.

I think that high PS is particularly valuable with interceptors, or anything else that can boost. The more I play, the more I appreciate high PS. This isn't to say that generic pilots aren't good. The efficiency of generic pilots is hard to argue with. But when you get wrecked by 3 squints at PS 9, you develop an appreciation for pilot skill.

Just a different perspective on all of this but I believe people arguing for a better weapon or evade for "hero" pilots are blinded by fandom, and here is why:

Take a look at the following video on youtube or watch the movie yourself:

Back? Good. Now notice how Vader's first shots almost always missed? Yes, even one of the best pilots was prone to missing his target.

Now consider this: The rebels didn't send up what they had against the first death star. They sent up their best. Most of the lore behind all of the pilots who died on the first death star run were aces. Even Porkins was a hero. (his death is explained in the star wars books as being caused by his preference to turn the machine that prevents the operator from experiencing G's to the max so he couldn't feel the inertia or in this case, lack of, and didn't realize he wasn't pulling up. )

What makes great pilots, is being able to predict your enemy, and maneuvering yourself into an advantageous position where you can shoot them, and they can't shoot back. Nothing more. I can't remember the actual statistic, or remember where I read it, but a large percentage of fighter pilot's that were recovered after being shot down did not see the aircraft that shot them down. So what does this all boil down to? How can someone like Luke or Wedge factor in? With You.

A poor player will march Luke to his death. It is unavoidable. Does this make Luke bad? No. A great player will fly circles around you with an academy pilot. Does this make the academy pilot OP? No. The PLAYER is responsible for making hero's look good, the cards simply help curb the odds in your favour.

X-Wing pilots were limited by their machines performance, every pilot is. The difference between good pilots and rookies is knowing what you can and cannot do. The only way to come to terms with this is by playing the game. This is also reflected in any list advice you ask for in this forum. Go ahead and try it, ask people what you should take to a game, list A or list B, and aside from maybe some advice on alternative cards to make your list stronger, most of the advice will be to play what you have more experience with, and can fly well. We all can take the world champion list and lose with it. It takes skill to win with it, and a little bit of luck.

Another interesting fact to note in the X-Wing books by Michael A. Stackpole is the statistic that most X-Wing casualties are caused in a head to head confrontation. I would not be surprised to see this is represented well within the game as well. The rogues would often fire off torp's at range (range 3) then break and evade while trying to maneuver into better positions for kill shots. Likewise, flying straight into range 1 in front of a tie swarm will probably get any ship killed, hero or not.

The trick isn't to survive as much enemy fire as possible, it is to limit it to the bare minimum while maximizing your fire.

So if you want to play Star Wars episode IV: A New Hope, yes Luke will be invincible. If you want to play Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures, everything is fine as is.

Besides action denials there a couple of other advantages to moving first. I'm thinking of the critical damage card Stunned Pilot and upgrade Anti-pursuit Lasers. Both of these only benefit when some one runs into you. Also Intelligence Agent is only beneficial with lower PS.

Just a different perspective on all of this but I believe people arguing for a better weapon or evade for "hero" pilots are blinded by fandom, and here is why:

Take a look at the following video on youtube or watch the movie yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5VahaEL7s

Back? Good. Now notice how Vader's first shots almost always missed? Yes, even one of the best pilots was prone to missing his target.

Now consider this: The rebels didn't send up what they had against the first death star. They sent up their best. Most of the lore behind all of the pilots who died on the first death star run were aces. Even Porkins was a hero. (his death is explained in the star wars books as being caused by his preference to turn the machine that prevents the operator from experiencing G's to the max so he couldn't feel the inertia or in this case, lack of, and didn't realize he wasn't pulling up. )

What makes great pilots, is being able to predict your enemy, and maneuvering yourself into an advantageous position where you can shoot them, and they can't shoot back. Nothing more. I can't remember the actual statistic, or remember where I read it, but a large percentage of fighter pilot's that were recovered after being shot down did not see the aircraft that shot them down. So what does this all boil down to? How can someone like Luke or Wedge factor in? With You.

A poor player will march Luke to his death. It is unavoidable. Does this make Luke bad? No. A great player will fly circles around you with an academy pilot. Does this make the academy pilot OP? No. The PLAYER is responsible for making hero's look good, the cards simply help curb the odds in your favour.

X-Wing pilots were limited by their machines performance, every pilot is. The difference between good pilots and rookies is knowing what you can and cannot do. The only way to come to terms with this is by playing the game. This is also reflected in any list advice you ask for in this forum. Go ahead and try it, ask people what you should take to a game, list A or list B, and aside from maybe some advice on alternative cards to make your list stronger, most of the advice will be to play what you have more experience with, and can fly well. We all can take the world champion list and lose with it. It takes skill to win with it, and a little bit of luck.

Another interesting fact to note in the X-Wing books by Michael A. Stackpole is the statistic that most X-Wing casualties are caused in a head to head confrontation. I would not be surprised to see this is represented well within the game as well. The rogues would often fire off torp's at range (range 3) then break and evade while trying to maneuver into better positions for kill shots. Likewise, flying straight into range 1 in front of a tie swarm will probably get any ship killed, hero or not.

The trick isn't to survive as much enemy fire as possible, it is to limit it to the bare minimum while maximizing your fire.

So if you want to play Star Wars episode IV: A New Hope, yes Luke will be invincible. If you want to play Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures, everything is fine as is.

Even though it makes no difference to your point, I feel the need to point out that video of Yavin's a sloppy unofficial reedit that screws up the pacing. For some reason it comes up first when searching for the Yavin battle.

Here's the original (or part of it):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpjgF6SWiU

Something you see a little is some pilots have less shield/ hull. The example I can think if this is the generic smuggler card with the falcon. His hull/ shield is something like 6/4 instead of 8/5.

That's because the Outer Rim Smuggler isn't flying the Millenium Falcon.

I believe the point of not changing the ship stats is that a different pilot doesn't change the ship. The stats represent the ship 's firepower, agility, et cetera, not the pilot's ability with them. The pilots shine using high PS, EPTs and pilot abilities.

Completely agree with every thing Battalia has stated.

I think though with the limitations of the game it a hard to get into a position of advantage. Some of the issues making it difficult are having no third dimension, no fog of war and the limit of the game play area itself. A lot of times you can't speed past some one because they'll just turn in on you; this is where I love interceptors. Having boost is very important in trying to get behind the enemy.

Being unpredictable I think is the key to getting better position. You don't have to have higher pilot skill to do this.

I agree with Battalia's sentiments. The game is well designed to make player skill an important part of success (the list itself and luck still being factors, but not as much, imo). There are 3 decision points that not only make the game fun, tense and exciting, but allow the player's skill (or lack thereof) influence the outcome: planning (set dials), movement (pick actions) and combat (target prioritization). A good player makes the right choices in all 3 cases more often than not. High PS helps you make these choices in 2 out of 3 cases (picking actions after seeing other ship's final positions and shooting first). For this reason, I rarely want Wedge (or even luke, et al) to move first.

The only advantage low PS offers is blocking. And as I eluded to already, you can't easily block a good player (easy to see it coming with some experience) and you can force low PS into bad positioning by moving in a way that leaves them few good options for their next turn (asteroids help with this).

Here's an idea I had. To test if PS is overcosted, try making some lists with named pilots each costing 1 pt. Less. Is it OP? Not much better? Personally, I don't think it would change the game significantly.

For example, 6 named TIES (to 'abuse' the point savings):

Howlie w/ Stealth (or hull up.)

Mauler

Backstabber

Dark Curse

Night Beast

Winged Gundark

Normally 100 pt list. Knocking a pt off each gives 6 to add more upgrades...BS?