I was running The Long Arm of the Hutt last night and got to the fight with the bounty hunters. I found it to be incredibly brutal for the players. The Gand uses a blaster rifle set to stun using GGY. Since it's on stun, he had to move to short range. The PCs had taken cover which gave him a final dice pool of GGYPB. Generating a success with that pool is not that difficult.

We were using our own characters in what I believe was probably this adventure. I was playing a Wookiee Maurauder with Brawn 5 and Vibro-Axe for melee combat, and we had a Klatoonian Heavy with Agility 4 and a Heavy Blaster Rifle for ranged combat, and the fight with the Gand started off being really, really bad for us. They kept hitting us with Stun, and no one's Stun Threshold is very high -- a single hit will take most everyone down, or at least take them below half, and then another single hit and they're down.

I managed to get within Engaged range on the Gand with just one point left under my ST. He had already been hurt by the Klatoonian shooting him, so I outright killed him with my Vibro-Axe. At that point, the enemy got scared and switched to using killing damage instead of stun, and we were golden -- no one else could hurt us that badly, and we quickly mopped up. Sure, I got shot a few more times, but between my Soak and my Wound Threshold being way higher than my ST, we were fine.

The lesson here is that doing stun damage is a really quick way to bring down the entire party, because no one has a great deal of ST. So, that means you can capture them easily, interrogate them, and then they can manage to escape.

If you want to give them a chance of really fighting their way through, then don't do stun damage. Even if you manage to take their Wound Threshold down below zero, they're still not dead -- it just takes a little medical skill and some stimpacks, and then they're back up again.

It's actually pretty hard to really kill the players in this game. So, avoiding stun is actually the best way to help ensure that they can fight their way through the enemy.

Since this was necro'd, I'll chime in for fun--don't forget targetted shots and disarming.

I really do think that's a big issue for people, that since EotE is such a narrative game, they don't think nearly as tactically as they should. With the options given to you, you can pretty easily pin down a target. If you make a called shot on their armor, you deal no damage, but are essentially exposing a temporary weak point that the next person can use to ignore the soak granted by the armor, which can be huge. Or you can disable his rifle for a round, or shoot him in the leg and then run so that he can't just move back into Short range next round. Heck, if you can get enough advantage on a shot, disarm him, and have one of your other players run in heroically to grab the rifle and turn it on him.

Players have a lot of options to deal with Soak-heavy enemies, they just have to think outside the "drop his hp to 0" box.

These are great ideas. Some of this I hadn't thought about at all, I think they'd liven up combat a lot and make it more interesting and dynamic.

There are a few tricks up a GM's sleeve here.

First is the issue the adventure spells out, the bounty hunters need to get into closer range to be effective. If the heroes have rifles they can take cover and possibly take a few NPCs down before they get in close enough.

Second, there is always the Lylek nesting further in the cave. If things are going badly for the heroes the Lylek might emerge and drag a NPC to a horrific death in the cave.

Since this was necro'd, I'll chime in for fun--don't forget targetted shots and disarming.

I really do think that's a big issue for people, that since EotE is such a narrative game, they don't think nearly as tactically as they should. With the options given to you, you can pretty easily pin down a target. If you make a called shot on their armor, you deal no damage, but are essentially exposing a temporary weak point that the next person can use to ignore the soak granted by the armor, which can be huge. Or you can disable his rifle for a round, or shoot him in the leg and then run so that he can't just move back into Short range next round. Heck, if you can get enough advantage on a shot, disarm him, and have one of your other players run in heroically to grab the rifle and turn it on him.

Players have a lot of options to deal with Soak-heavy enemies, they just have to think outside the "drop his hp to 0" box.

These are great ideas. Some of this I hadn't thought about at all, I think they'd liven up combat a lot and make it more interesting and dynamic.

It definitely does.

Like, there are threads on this forum (and AoR) about Supressing Fire and Covering Fire and such, but the rules as they are totally cover that already.

Rolling a called shot to stop an enemy from firing is pretty much exactly that, but done via a mechanic that can do even more. Its only moderately useful vs a Rival, but incredibly handy against Minion Groups or a Nemesis. Being able to stop a Minion group of Stormtroopers from firing can be a pretty awesome tool to have handy. Or against that Force User who can hurl a Z-95 at you? Can't really do that if you negate his Force Powers for a round--and its really easy to narrate too--he's too busy deflecting blaster bolts. Guy whose running that you need alive? Shoot him in the leg. (of course, a Despair might mean you do damage too!)

Its really crazy how much power the Aim maneuver gives players, but no where in the Core book or any of the adventures does it highlight that. And once the players get good and creative with it, it becomes a tool for the GM to use right back. Like I said in another thread, if you've got a player who is an absolutely beastly Marauder with more soak than you can bypass--keeping him pinned down is perfectly viable. He can lessen it by being smart narratively, and by his team backing him up. It pretty much prevents him from being able to murder everything while the other PCs twiddle their thumbs.

Like I said in another thread, if you've got a player who is an absolutely beastly Marauder with more soak than you can bypass--keeping him pinned down is perfectly viable. He can lessen it by being smart narratively, and by his team backing him up. It pretty much prevents him from being able to murder everything while the other PCs twiddle their thumbs.

Speaking only for myself (since I play a "beastly Marauder" with a lot of soak and high WT), the only thing that's going to keep me pinned down is weapons fire that would greatly exceed my soak. So, that would mean that you wouldn't have the problem of not being able to bypass my soak.

Put a Heavy Repeating Blaster at the end of the corridor and have it fire at us, and I'm going to charge it. And then I'm going to cut in half the guys who were operating it.

Have a whole squad of minions armed with multiple HRBs, and I'll wait until they've all taken their turn, and then I'll charge them and cut them in half -- as a single squad, they can't use their HRBs at Engaged range, and they're unlikely to fire into melee where they are much more likely to hit their buddies.

Have multiple separate squads of minions, all armed with multiple HRBs and firing at us, and have us caught in a cross-fire between them all, and ... it would be a good day to die.

Of course, give me a couple of stimpacks after the battle, and I'd be back on my feet, regardless.

That gets a little metagamey, doesn't it? I mean, is it logical for your character to charge the firing line, even if you OOC know the odds of shrugging off a HBR shot?

Like I said in another thread, if you've got a player who is an absolutely beastly Marauder with more soak than you can bypass--keeping him pinned down is perfectly viable. He can lessen it by being smart narratively, and by his team backing him up. It pretty much prevents him from being able to murder everything while the other PCs twiddle their thumbs.

Speaking only for myself (since I play a "beastly Marauder" with a lot of soak and high WT), the only thing that's going to keep me pinned down is weapons fire that would greatly exceed my soak. So, that would mean that you wouldn't have the problem of not being able to bypass my soak.

Not to sound like a jerk, but you are apparently speaking as someone who doesn't know what Aim allows you to do.

By making an Aim maneuver, I can make it so that my shot is no longer dealing damage, but is instead generating an effect in the range of 3 Advantage. It adds 2 setback dice to the attack roll. If I spend 2 Aim maneuvers, it only adds 1 setback die. If the roll is successful, I can disarm you or do just about anything on the Crit Table to you, or anything else I can think of that is narratively appropriate, so long as I make it temporary and not excessive. Your Soak doesn't protect you.

So yes, I can absolutely pin you down, and do it with just a single guy with a holdout blaster, so long as he's a good enough shot.

That gets a little metagamey, doesn't it? I mean, is it logical for your character to charge the firing line, even if you OOC know the odds of shrugging off a HBR shot?

And if he was faced by something he knew to be too big and bad (e.g., Darth Vader), there's a good chance he might still charge. This time, he would be screaming the Wookiee equivalent of "It's a good day to die!!!!!!"

Of course, he did back down from fighting the Lylek in "Long Arm of the Hutt", but he was much less experienced then.

[0] See https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/alt.tasteless.jokes/EIgI-Y3XXhM

[ Edit for clarity ]

Not to sound like a jerk, but you are apparently speaking as someone who doesn't know what Aim allows you to do.

Fair enough.

By making an Aim maneuver, I can make it so that my shot is no longer dealing damage, but is instead generating an effect in the range of 3 Advantage. It adds 2 setback dice to the attack roll. If I spend 2 Aim maneuvers, it only adds 1 setback die. If the roll is successful, I can disarm you or do just about anything on the Crit Table to you, or anything else I can think of that is narratively appropriate, so long as I make it temporary and not excessive. Your Soak doesn't protect you.

You can disarm me from my Vibro-Axes, true. But he's still a Wookiee, and with Brawl he can still rip you limb from limb.

So yes, I can absolutely pin you down, and do it with just a single guy with a holdout blaster, so long as he's a good enough shot.

I would be interested to see how that combat would actually go.

I'd do what 2P51 does: Glop grenade, Bola and netlaunchers. Wook at the wittle wookie wiggling. Shoot at your leisure.

Never ever try to get into a pissing contest with a GM that knows the system/what he does.

Edit: Sorry if it comes on somewhat strong, but so does the description of the wookie and his no-fear of a HRB.

I'd do what 2P51 does: Glop grenade, Bola and netlaunchers. Wook at the wittle wookie wiggling. Shoot at your leisure.

As I was thinking last night about this thread, it occurred to me that there might be other solutions in this space that would actually be effective. You've just named three alternatives that I had not considered.

That said, you're only going to get one shot with these weapons, and they're pretty short range. If you miss, or if my Wookiee can escape because he really is that strong and his Athletics is pretty good, then I'm going to close to Engaged and then carve you up like a Christmas Turkey.

I do double maneuver all the time, and with a sufficiently successful Athletics check, that second maneuver doesn't cost me any additional strain. So, I can close to Engaged pretty fast, and it's not particularly hard work. Then you get to meet the business end of my vibroweapons with monomolecular edges.

Never ever try to get into a pissing contest with a GM that knows the system/what he does.

I don't doubt that a GM who knows what they're doing can stack things in their favour. In fact, I'd be real surprised if they couldn't.

On the other hand, you may not believe this, but I do actually try to role-play as much as possible, and actively try to avoid the munchkin combat effects. It's just that I'm the only heavy Melee fighter in the group, and so I get loaded with a lot of responsibility to take opponents down pretty quickly. And the only other big fighter in the group is our Klatoonian Heavy who is really good with Ranged weapons.

Of course, we're not going to start talking about the Duros who can out-Macgyver Macgyver, and out-Magoo Magoo. And out-Jackie Chan Jackie Chan. And out-Batman Batman. And it's not that the GM gives him lots of stuff he shouldn't have or anything, it's that the player somehow manages to consistently make truly unbelievable rolls, time after time. Give him YG against a Daunting check, and he'll make it. Repeatedly. And with more than a few Triumphs along the way.

And yes, we did try taking his dice away and making him use someone else's. It doesn't matter.

Edit: Sorry if it comes on somewhat strong, but so does the description of the wookie and his no-fear of a HRB.

At the end of the day, with as much Soak as he has, and as high as his Wound Threshold is, an HRB just isn't enough to scare him. He knows that he can close quickly to Engaged and then carve up the operators.

And if there is danger of getting pinned down by HRBs, he also knows that once his Klatoonian buddy starts firing his own LRB at those targets, with his Agility and his skill and talents, he's probably going to be doing more damage than the HRBs are likely to be doing. At that point, the HRB operators are going to consider the Klatoonian a much more important target to take out than the Wookiee. At least, they will until the Wookiee gets too close for them to do anything about it.

We're a pretty deadly team.

When you're Ensnared all you can do is break free, no maneuvers that turn. Bola's also have Knockdown so you have to spend one Maneuver the round after you are free getting back up. There are also Concussion grenades which have Concussive effect, that will Stagger for two rounds, which means no Actions. Same thing can be dropped on your buddy for the same effect. Weapon effects don't require any damage goes past Soak at all, just a successful roll.

I can't believe your GM let you get to that point and isn't using this stuff on you.

Back to the scene with the bounty hunters: having the lylekk emerging from its cave is good idea too, i also had prepared some fun environmental effects like a landslide on the cliff. But in my case everything just went very fast.

Another point is, that if you have inexperienced group that not yet take full advantage of all possibilitys the combat system provides, things can get hairy. But i think we will improve on that in our upcoming sessions.

Speaking of melee fighters in combat. I guess your wookie must be sure to take down the oponent with a single attack or else he might eat some blaster bolts. Example: if the npc survives this attack it is (as far as i understand the rules) totally legit to move out of engagement range, thus avoiding the penalty for light ranged when engaged and finishing with an easy ranged attack upon yor wookie. That can cause quite some damage.

My point is: isn't it far too easy to avoid the penalty for attacking with light ranged when engaged? In my group we have a melee wookie on board and so far this has not been a problem. Besides i wouldn't let my npc take advantage of the above rule when being engaged.

But i guess i would be anoyed if my players would exploit this every round, everytime they encounter a melee oponent.

When you're Ensnared all you can do is break free, no maneuvers that turn. Bola's also have Knockdown so you have to spend one Maneuver the round after you are free getting back up. There are also Concussion grenades which have Concussive effect, that will Stagger for two rounds, which means no Actions. Same thing can be dropped on your buddy for the same effect. Weapon effects don't require any damage goes past Soak at all, just a successful roll.

I can't believe your GM let you get to that point and isn't using this stuff on you.

He hasn't used such effects on us yet, that's true. Of course, since we're the only real fighters in the group, if he did that then the rest of the party would fall very quickly. At which point he has to have a lot of plans for how we can be interrogated, then escape, then continue on to the next part of the story, etc.... Going through the next hundred years with us sitting in jail the entire time isn't particularly cinematic -- or fun, for anyone.

Thing is, this isn't an "Us vs. the GM" type of game. Yes, anything we do to the "enemy" can just as easily be done to us, but the reverse is also true. And if we were to keep pulling the same tactics on them time after time after time, then that would probably be the end of the game -- no one would want to come back. Or, the players would be using his own tactics against the NPCs so often that he would get tired of it faster than the players. After all, you can "munchkin" just about anything.

I'm sure our GM has plans for what he's going to do to us in the future, and it might well involve some of the same sorts of tactics as has recently been described with regards to weapons effects. But whatever he does, I know him well enough to say that he's not going to over-use any particular method, and the idea of having one guy with a holdout blaster keeping the entire party pinned down is highly unlikely to be on that menu. Or, at least it's unlikely to occur more than once.

Meanwhile, I am actively doing whatever I can to avoid talents that let me boost my rolls on the critical tables (e.g., Lethal Blows), because I feel it is bad enough that I'm going to be getting critical hits right and left and that I'm swinging weapons that are Vicious 3. I really do want to try to focus on the role-play aspect of the game, instead of trying to crank up the critical hit tables as high as I can.

If my GM would let me skip those items in the talent trees, I would be more than happy to spend my XP on other talents -- like Burly. But if I'm forced to grind through each and every one of the talents according to the RAW, then you can be assured that I'm going to be rolling +70 or more on those critical hit tables pretty quickly.

[ Edit: Final two paragraphs regarding my desire to focus on the role-play aspect of the game. ]

But see, its not about dropping the other players, but instead, forcing you to rely on them. You get pinned down, and they have to come save you so that you can save them. Its about forcing more interacting in combat outside of them standing back and you two murdering everything.

My goal wouldn't be to wipe the party, but instead to force those non-combative types to be the real heroes by rushing to your aid, providing covering fire so that you can get up and get after the bad guys.

I personally find its more fun for everyone when there's a challenge. Yes, some people want to charge in with their Wookie and just destroy everyone, every single encounter... but that doesn't make for very interesting stories after awhile.

Which story is more interesting/fun?

Wookie Marauder runs in and kills Trandoshan Slaver in one hit. Then moves on to the next guy. And the next guy.

Or: Wookie Marauder is disarmed and bolaed by a Trandoshan Slaver. The Doctor with zero combat skill charges him, throwing a punch that was so completely unexpected it knocks the slaver to the ground and stuns him for a round, while the Slicer runs in, dodging blaster fire, to assist the Wookie in getting free and handing him back his axe. The Wookie then gets up, towering over the Slaver, and cuts him down.

I'm going with a scenario like the second one every time.

Which story is more interesting/fun?

Depends on the dice rolls.

Wookie Marauder runs in and kills Trandoshan Slaver in one hit. Then moves on to the next guy. And the next guy.

It took two hits to for me to take Trex down. Meanwhile, his droids did **** near kill our pilot. And we had only one other player with us at the time (the 2-1B doctor droid), and he was also severely hurt. My Klatooninian buddy wasn't there.

Or: Wookie Marauder is disarmed and bolaed by a Trandoshan Slaver. The Doctor with zero combat skill charges him, throwing a punch that was so completely unexpected it knocks the slaver to the ground and stuns him for a round, while the Slicer runs in, dodging blaster fire, to assist the Wookie in getting free and handing him back his axe. The Wookie then gets up, towering over the Slaver, and cuts him down.

If that's what the dice rolls allow, then yes -- that is more cinematic. But sometimes even the best Jedi's get killed in combat. And if the dice rolls don't support this more cinematic concept that you have, then you have to put that out of your head and go with something that can actually fit the dice rolls.

I'm going with a scenario like the second one every time.

If that's allowed by the dice rolls, that's great.

Good luck with trying to force that to happen when you're starting out with more firepower than the PCs and their dice rolls are crap.

At the point you don't feel afraid of the potential of a few hits from a HBR in a round to me that means combat has become pretty much irrelevant, predictable and essentially pointless. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me but to each their own, your table.

At the point you don't feel afraid of the potential of a few hits from a HBR in a round to me that means combat has become pretty much irrelevant, predictable and essentially pointless. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me but to each their own, your table.

The biggest damage ever done to my character was actually collateral damage from my Klatooinian buddy. He shot into the group that was Engaged in melee -- which included me -- and he got a Despair. I even wrote up a pretty full description of the adventure at http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/105306-share-your-funniest-situations-during-a-gaming-session/page-3#entry1087974

So, I got hit for as much damage as an HRB would be likely to do, even though he was only using his LRB.

However, that came with a bunch of successes, so he got lots of auto-fire off that, and I was hit by only one of those blaster bolts. The other blaster bolts hit the minions I had been Engaged with, and as I recall, one blaster bolt each was enough to finish them all off.

A proper "tank" is expected to be able to take a hell of a lot of damage, and to be able to dish out a hell of a lot of damage. I think I do a decent job of fulfilling that role.

My Soak and WT aren't anywhere close to Teemo or a Lylek, but they are significantly higher than most of the other characters in the group. I'd be a decent Rival, but nowhere near Adversary level.

You are way too stuck on dice rolls.

The dice rolls define the limit of what you can do with narrative. If the dice rolls say that someone dies, then you can't say that they live.

So, lets say the Doctor charges the Trandoshan. He moves to Engaged, takes a single Aim action, so takes 2 Setback dice. He flips a Destiny point, and I give him a Boost die because he's being the Big **** Hero and the Trandoshan totally doesn't see it coming.

Now, if he succeeds in the roll, its awesome, and what I described previously is the likely outcome. But if he misses the punch? Then he still just tried to be the Big **** Hero. The Trandoshan turns his attention to him.

And the Doctor dies.

Meanwhile, the Slicer now arrives and maybe he tries to tackle the Slaver. He has a pretty good shot to hit. But if he doesn't? The Trandoshan is likely going to get a setback die or two to his rolls because he's swarmed and surprised.

And the Slicer dies. Trex is good at what he does.

Now the Wookie gets free and actually lands the hits needed.

Meanwhile, the droids have been firing from a Short distance at the trapped Wookiee, who is either dead or at least stunned into unconsciousness. After all, Trex is only interested in collecting Wookiee hides, or Wookiee slaves to send into the arena.

End of story. Not cinematic, but it is how the combat would actually have turned out, based on the die rolls.

And it did almost turn out that way anyway.

How does Trex kill two people in one round? With your soak, how are the Droids killing you? You keep harping on the dice, but then ignore all the rest of the rules. Also, I never said it was Trex--I said just a Trandoshan slaver, so the rest of the encounter is undefined. But even still, the the dice are not the final say--the GM is. So, yes, I can totally say that someone is not dead.

How does Trex kill two people in one round?

Not in one round. But there are other NPCs that are also present (e.g., the previously mentioned droids), and they're fighting too. Neither Trex nor the PCs can do two attacks in the same round. So, if the PCs are going to go after Trex, then they have to go through or around the droids, and those droids are probably going to still be going after the PCs who are now trying to ignore them.

And yes, Trex can one-shot most of the PCs at that stage, depending on the rolls. Especially if the PCs are already injured.

With your soak, how are the Droids killing you?

I had only Soak 5 at the time and not nearly as high a WT as I have now, and if they're armed with Heavy Blaster Pistols or Blaster Rifles, that's enough to get through and kill me over time. And no one has a very good ST, so these weapons set on Stun would be enough to take me out quite quickly, even with my Soak.

Perhaps it wasn't obvious, but all the PCs started off this combat at least somewhat injured. With as weak as the other two PCs were, that "somewhat injured" still meant that they were close to half WT already. One or two more average shots, and they're dead. One really good shot, and they're definitely dead.

You keep harping on the dice, but then ignore all the rest of the rules.

When the dice are batshit crazy weird, there's only so much you can compensate for with regards to the rest of the rules. That's one of the drawbacks to any game that uses dice.

In EotE, there is an additional complication that theoretically nothing is supposed to be truly impossible, just very highly improbable. "Yeah, go ahead. You just try rolling one green versus eight red -- WHAT?!? HOLY ****!?! YOU ACTUALLY DID IT?!?"

Also, I never said it was Trex--I said just a Trandoshan slaver, so the rest of the encounter is undefined.

I used the one example I had, which was Trex.

But even still, the the dice are not the final say--the GM is. So, yes, I can totally say that someone is not dead.

If you want to shred any remaining sense of the supposed cinematic nature of the game, sure -- You can completely ignore the dice at all times. In fact, in that case, I wonder why you bother using dice at all?

For the rest of us, a GM who consistently ignores the dice rolls will be the end of the game. In fact, a GM who only occasionally ignores the dice rolls will probably have a significant negative impact on the game.

Sure, the game is supposed to be cinematic, but the dice are actually a core mechanic. You ignore any core mechanic of any game at your own peril -- and the peril of your players.

For the rest of us, a GM who consistently ignores the dice rolls will be the end of the game. In fact, a GM who only occasionally ignores the dice rolls will probably have a significant negative impact on the game.

Sure, the game is supposed to be cinematic, but the dice are actually a core mechanic. You ignore any core mechanic of any game at your own peril -- and the peril of your players.

Speaking for my group, we all object to ignoring/modifying/fudging results. If the dice are going to be rolled (and there are times where the group agrees that certain rolls are not necessary and so are not made), then deal with the results as they come up.

In EotE, there is an additional complication that theoretically nothing is supposed to be truly impossible, just very highly improbable. "Yeah, go ahead. You just try rolling one green versus eight red -- WHAT?!? HOLY ****!?! YOU ACTUALLY DID IT?!?"

To show you how batshit crazy weird our group can get, I used this example because one player actually tried it. He rolled his one green die, and asked everyone else at the table (including the GM) to roll all the red dice they had.

He **** near succeeded.

Fortunately for us, he wasn't the guy playing the Duros, because that other guy can't lose a die roll if he wanted to. And yes, we made him switch sets of dice. It doesn't matter.

Yes, our games get batshit crazy weird.

[ Edit for clarity ]

A small aportation. Yesterday I used in combat a "pseudo-Vader" (Based on all available thing until the moment).

It was 6Y on main weapon skill, 5R and 5 Setbacks on defense, above 26-28 Wounds and a bit less on Strain.

Players and NPC's involved on the fight have above 5Y 1G (Sometimes 6Y) and 4R 3 Setbacks on Defense, and the rest above 3Y 1G and 2R 1P wiith 2 Setbacks on defense.

Most of them had a Boost due to "motivation". Soak isn't applied on combat because the main weapon ignored it.

The highest player "killed" the NPC in 3 rounds, 1 attack, 1 to re aproach (due to some "Force Push) and 1 attacks. He only received 1 attack and get above 15 damage.

The other NPC's didn't managed to hit the "boss". So...

Using the actual rules, considering that this is probably the max enemy that someone can confront, what do you believe about that situation?

Thanks!