What is an "infinite combo"?

By EnSkywalker, in X-Wing Rules Questions

Under the tournament rules, you have the following section under Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to
play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling
a game for time, placing components with excessive force, abusing an infinite
combo, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy

or respect, etc.

In the middle of that is the section called infinite combo which means different things to different people. I interpreted it one way, a different group I played against interpreted a different way, and a third different group had another definition.

Example 1: Using a couple of large base ships, I set up a blocking pattern and a set of maneuvers which prevented my opponent's from moving until either I destroyed his ship or he destroyed mine. He claimed I could be called for an infinite combo because I could just set my dials and nothing happened.

Example 2 (and my own intepretation): An Omicron is setup at an angle with a Yorr bumped at the start of placement. Every maneuver the Omicron is set to a Red 0 and is stressed. Yorr pulls the stress and then does a green bank 1 to clear it but immediately bumps. Effectively, no ship ever moves and it forces your opponent to come to you on the edge of the map. I have heard of other similar setups using 4 shuttles and fortress falcon in the corner with lando and chewie facing each other and constantly bumping but taking advantage of Lando's ability, gunner, and a 360 arc.

Example 3: Is one I've heard came from the FFG staff but never seen it written anywhere. It is to prevent an inifinite passing of abilities which I don't think is available with cards written to date that hasn't been FAQed away.

So which of the above is an "infinite combo"? With Regionals coming up you might see some of these claimed to be an infinite combo. It would be good to get a general concensus before someone gets their feelings hurt because one TO ruled one way and another a different way.

Thus far, FFG has been very good about preventing infinite combos in this game.
They've included the anti-Infinite rule in case they screw up, but they haven't yet.

Basically, Example 3 is the closest to being correct, as it still has to stop once you no longer have new actions to perform in the turn.

An Infinite Combo is one that can be done an infinite number of times within a single phase, rather than once per turn.

One potential example (that got edited away) would be if Captain Yorr didn't stop at 3 stress tokens, and if his ability wasn't FAQ'd from not working as a multi-trigger on Opportunist.
That would be "Roll infinite dice, and give Captain Yorr infinite stress tokens".

You could, technically, check over and over if you could barrel roll/boost a certain direction (that's blocked) using the framework presented in the rules.

EG: I'm going to try and barrel roll left (blocked!). OK, new action... I'm going to boost straight (blocked!). Ok, new action I'm going to barrel roll left! Etc... well technically there is no 'remembering' of your opportunity to do this, it would be within the rules, except for the 'sportsman like' loop clause.

As Dracon' suggests FFG has done a good job of actually keeping any "infinite" combos out of play. Just doing the same thing turn after turn is NOT an "infinite" combo because turns are actually passing. The "infinite combo" the rules talk about are those things that can basically STOP time.

I think it might be more of a thing in their card games. I know in MtG there were a number of these, that if you could get everything you needed to do the combo, you could keep taking actions over and over for an infinite number of times.

Infinite bumps with large ships are quite common.

Any team with two large ships can maneuver to face each other and bump endlessly.

I'm not sure on the official ruling.

Infinite bumps with large ships are quite common.

Any team with two large ships can maneuver to face each other and bump endlessly.

I'm not sure on the official ruling.

It's not infinite: it's once per phase.

Infinite bumps with large ships are quite common.

Any team with two large ships can maneuver to face each other and bump endlessly.

I'm not sure on the official ruling.

Flying two ships together (usually YT's) so that they bump in successuve rounds is called Fortressing. FFG is aware of it and will make a ruling on it if it becomes more of an issue. They do not perceive it to be an issue at the moment but they could change that up if more Fortressing shows up in higher level tournaments.

I think an "infinite rule" would also apply to Swarm Tactics...as follows:

Darth Vader with PS 9 has ST, affects Howlrunner, PS 8 with ST, who in turn links to another pilot with ST, who links to another pilot, basically linking DV's PS9 to everyone down the chain, and you have a whole squadron of PS 9.

there is actually a forum question on Swart Tacticts continuing down the line, when affected by a PS ) damage card.

I think an "infinite rule" would also apply to Swarm Tactics...as follows:

Darth Vader with PS 9 has ST, affects Howlrunner, PS 8 with ST, who in turn links to another pilot with ST, who links to another pilot, basically linking DV's PS9 to everyone down the chain, and you have a whole squadron of PS 9.

there is actually a forum question on Swart Tacticts continuing down the line, when affected by a PS ) damage card.

Chaining Swarm Tactics is addressed in the FAQ and its perfectly legal. Also it's not an infinite loop because it ends once you've passed it along to each pilot.

Where in the FAQ?

On page 9 in the clarifications section for Swarm Tactics.

An infinite combo is just that, a combination of cards that creates a situation that can continue forever, either stopping the game because it can't end or allowing the player performing the combo to accumulate an infinite number of resources because there is nothing in the game that stops the combo. I don't believe any actually exist in X-Wing, but a very generic example would be a card that says

When you do "A", also do "B"

And another card that says

When you do "B", also do "A"

once that starts, it can't end, you just bounce back and forth between doing "A" and doing "B" forever.

Like I said, I don't think X-Wing has any such interactions, but they do crop up occasionally in collectable card games like Magic, mainly because CCGs have a lot more cards that can interact, and those interactions tend to be a lot more complex than those in X-Wing, but the rule is in place just in case the designers miss something and such a combo sneaks in someday.

Here's an example of an infinite combo time-wasting loop that could theoretically happen with one minor shift in the current rules:
If "Dutch" Vander wan't unique...


Dutch Vander #1 performs an Acquire Target Lock action on an enemy.
This lets Dutch Vander #2 Target Lock (non-action) an enemy
This lets Dutch Vander #1 lose his current Target Lock to Target Lock (non-action) an Enemy

This lets Dutch Vander #2 lose his current Target Lock to Target Lock an Enemy

This lets Dutch Vander #1 lose his current Target Lock to Target Lock an Enemy

...et cetera

until the timer runs out. The DVs fleet only included two pilots, and the player with fewer points gets a modified win in the case of a tie game (in this case, 0-0).

This example (even though prevented via the current rules) also highlights why abusing an infinite combo is bad sportsmanship.

Other, more M:tG-esque combos would include a ship combination that always kills what it shoots at (I roll an infinite amount of damage dice), a ship that cannot be killed (I roll an infinite amount of evade dice), a ship that can give you infinite stress tokens upon firing on you, and other broken things.

These are okay in Magic, as combo-breakers are entirely feasible, and you needed to draw the combo in the first place, giving your opponent windows of opportunity to win before you fired your lazar.

In THIS game, where the entire fleet is brought to bear at once, and abilities cannot be shorted out save through destroying the ship in question, there is no such window of opportunity, so they called it in the Tournament Rules in case they ever screw up.

Another example would be something like dual squad leaders. If it wasn't unique and didn't have the "lower PS" restriction on it... And if you could do the same action multiple times.

Ship 1: BSP w/ SL

Ship 2: BSP w/ SL

#1 uses SL to give #2 an action

#2 uses SL to give #1 an action

#1 uses SL to give #2 an action

#2 uses SL to give #1 an action

etc.

Note that this is an INFINITE loop because you can do it for the full 75minutes and not ever run out of things to do. Swarm Tactics chaining is not infinite because you can only do it ~6 times a round. And then you have to do other stuff.

I have to say that the only thing I can think of in the current rules that would actually be considered an infinite loop would be the entire "boost/br" but blocked. But that's not to say that others can't exist, they just haven't been found yet.

Note that infinite loops themselves are not illegal, but abuse of them is. If we take the above users example of dual Dutch... and we pretend that maybe Dutch has an astromech that rolls an attack die every time he gets a lock and does a damage to that ship if it rolls a crit... It would be perfectly legal to infinite loop the two Dutch's to kill all the ships in range. It would NOT be legal to just infinitely loop it to waste time.