I think my use of current actually just go validated by people's attempts to argue my own point. Hmmm that was strange.

I think my use of current actually just go validated by people's attempts to argue my own point. Hmmm that was strange.

We were just telling you why Vader didn't know Leia was Force Sensitive. You can use that however works best for your game. I don't think anyone was arguing over the EU stuff. Most of it makes so little coherent sense why waste time arguing against it?

I don't care about the EU, because too much of it is terrible, terrible drek.

Welp ok then

I don't care about the EU, because too much of it is terrible, terrible drek.

Welp ok then

Hey, it's just my opinion. If you like the EU stuff, then use it all to your heart's content. I just hate it.

I don't care about the EU, because too much of it is terrible, terrible drek.

Welp ok then

Hey, it's just my opinion. If you like the EU stuff, then use it all to your heart's content. I just hate it.

I just mean there are plenty of examples proving the opposing point from the EU, but if the response is "oh but pretty much the whole EU sucks" then you've effectively shut down the discussion by refusing to engage with the source matte providing examples of the point the other side is trying to make.

Like, i could point out graphic novel examples of Order 66 survivors who tried to lure Vader in and overwhelm him but were all summarily killed, or those who kind of isolated themselves but still used the Force and were never uncovered (not Obi-Wan/Yoda, obviously). But if you don't wanna engage with those examples simply because they're EU, then we're not really conversing on each others' points anymore.

Now, looking at the skills for FSEx and FSEn, there is a significant amount of overlap for the non-stacking skills. Enough to where I suspect a fully fleshed FSEx tree will save quite a lot of XP when it comes filling out FSEn, and vice versa. If the two classes are not allowed to stack - under the implication that one progresses from FSEx to FSEn or otherwise - then it seems that some survival skills are lost in exchange for more forceful Force use.

If you have Non-Ranked Talent X from Spec A, you effectively also have it for purposes of Spec B, C, and D when you buy in.

Although it's not required for one to be FSEx before becoming FSEm, I think there's a clear intent that one could start in one and progress in the other, and that's a way to measure one's overall Force "training" (especially since it gets you to FR 3 and FR is a decent metric in this game to gauge a Force user's power at a glance).

I just mean there are plenty of examples proving the opposing point from the EU, but if the response is "oh but pretty much the whole EU sucks" then you've effectively shut down the discussion by refusing to engage with the source matte providing examples of the point the other side is trying to make.

I don't consider a single word of the Expanded Universe valid source material and neither does George Lucas or our new Disney overlords. They're going to use what they want for the new films just like I'm going to use what I want for my games.

Why would I engage with 'source material' I consider wholly invalid and poorly written? Essentially, you're a Christian and I'm a Jew. You're telling me to check out the Bible and I'm saying I've got all I need with the Torah.

You like the EU. I get it. You can use it to validate however you want to play the Star Wars universe. I'm not going to because I don't like it. There's no logical argument to be made that will change my personal taste.

You can point out whatever EU examples you like. If you want to use them to expand the scope of your game, then have at it. However, it is incredibly arrogant to tell me I should like and respect something simply because it has the name Star Wars emblazoned on it. If you want to argue with me about how the game should work (and by all means do so!), then engage with me in a way I consider canonically valid.

Which is pretty much limited to the films and television series. Sure, occasionally, I'll see something in the EU that I don't think is terrible, but overall I ignore it. You telling me I shouldn't ignore something I dislike in a hobby where we sit around a table and play make-believe is not an argument I'm going to take seriously.

Yep, which can be a real advantage when progressing through some trees.

Absolutely.

However, it is incredibly arrogant to tell me I should like and respect something simply because it has the name Star Wars emblazoned on it. If you want to argue with me about how the game should work (and by all means do so!), then engage with me in a way I consider canonically valid.

Whatever dude. Thanks for the incorrect assumption about my intent/putting words in my mouth btw. Very conducive to a real discussion.

You want me to engage with you only about the things you find relevant, and refuse to consider engaging me about the things I find relevant...lol sounds like a great "opportunity for discussion there." I'll pass.

However, it is incredibly arrogant to tell me I should like and respect something simply because it has the name Star Wars emblazoned on it. If you want to argue with me about how the game should work (and by all means do so!), then engage with me in a way I consider canonically valid.

Whatever dude. Thanks for the incorrect assumption about my intent/putting words in my mouth btw. Very conducive to a real discussion.

You want me to engage with you only about the things you find relevant, and refuse to consider engaging me about the things I find relevant...lol sounds like a great "opportunity for discussion there." I'll pass.

It's pretty hilarious you expect me to accept sources you like (i.e. - the Expanded Universe) and condemn me when I don't share your opinion on their utility.

Gee, what a jerk I am for having my own opinion. It's totally going to get in the way of having a "real discussion" about questions you've already predetermined the answers too. If you're looking for someone to parrot your own opinion, get a mirror.

I have read pretty much all of the EU novels, being a hopeless fanboy, and while some of it is really good (Timothy Zahn's stuff, for example) some of it is horrible ("The Crystal Star", anyone?). For my campaigns I just cherrypick whatever I like. My group in the D6 system have moved into the timeline past the movies, and I fully intend to utilize the events from the Thrawn Trilogy. I plan on referencing other stuff without going into details, like Han and Leia's marriage, Luke bringing back the Jedi Order, and so on. Not going anywhere near the Sun Crusher, that thing was the worst idea for a superweapon ever.

It's already clear that Edge of the Empire includes EU material (Chiss, Black Sun, Assassin Corvette, YT-2400, and lots more), and it's pretty likely that the other lines will too. I think that trying to eliminate all EU-derived materials is a terrible idea.

It's already clear that Edge of the Empire includes EU material (Chiss, Black Sun, Assassin Corvette, YT-2400, and lots more), and it's pretty likely that the other lines will too. I think that trying to eliminate all EU-derived materials is a terrible idea.

Sure! So far I've really liked all the good bits they've taken out of it.

That being said, I don't consider the EU as evidence for how the Force should or should not be interpreted. You are certainly welcome to do so in your own games, but please don't expect me to consider such lore with the same amount of weight I assign to the original trilogy and prequels.

It's already clear that Edge of the Empire includes EU material (Chiss, Black Sun, Assassin Corvette, YT-2400, and lots more), and it's pretty likely that the other lines will too. I think that trying to eliminate all EU-derived materials is a terrible idea.

Sure! So far I've really liked all the good bits they've taken out of it.

So you agree that there are 'good bits' in the EU that can be/have been brought into the Star Wars games, and you just disagree with others on what further 'bits' might be 'good' since you obviously don't hate the EU as a whole despite your previous statements.

It's already clear that Edge of the Empire includes EU material (Chiss, Black Sun, Assassin Corvette, YT-2400, and lots more), and it's pretty likely that the other lines will too. I think that trying to eliminate all EU-derived materials is a terrible idea.

Sure! So far I've really liked all the good bits they've taken out of it.

So you agree that there are 'good bits' in the EU that can be/have been brought into the Star Wars games, and you just disagree with others on what further 'bits' might be 'good' since you obviously don't hate the EU as a whole despite your previous statements.

There are some diamonds in the rough, but the rough is very, very rough. Most of the EU is absolute trash - worse than most fan fiction. Writing Palpatine as doing what he did to prepare the galaxy for the Yuzhan Vong (whatever) is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Then there's the constant New Republic, Galactic Alliance, New Sith Empire, New Galactic Empire, whatever garbage. It's idiotic.

So, mostly, I disregard everything in the EU, because it's too hard to separate the good ideas from the moron ideas. Do I hate it all? No, that's me being hyperbolic. Do I trust any 'sources' in the EU especially when it comes to the Force? No, absolutely not.

The EU authors have demonstrated over dozens of books that they're terrible at writing about Jedi and the Force.

There are some diamonds in the rough, but the rough is very, very rough. Most of the EU is absolute trash - worse than most fan fiction. Writing Palpatine as doing what he did to prepare the galaxy for the Yuzhan Vong (whatever) is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Then there's the constant New Republic, Galactic Alliance, New Sith Empire, New Galactic Empire, whatever garbage. It's idiotic.

So, mostly, I disregard everything in the EU, because it's too hard to separate the good ideas from the moron ideas. Do I hate it all? No, that's me being hyperbolic. Do I trust any 'sources' in the EU especially when it comes to the Force? No, absolutely not.

The EU authors have demonstrated over dozens of books that they're terrible at writing about Jedi and the Force.

Would you agree then, that even what you are accepting as canon [the six films] is pretty hit or miss themselves? There are numerous examples of sloppy writing concerning the Force and what it is capable of.

Why doesn't Vader recognize Obi-wan is on Tatooine?

Why doesn't he recognize Leia's connection to the Force?

Why isn't Vader able to find out where Yoda is?

How can Luke hide from Vader in the Throne Room?

Why isn't Luke warped by the Force lightning the way Palpatine was?

Why is Anakin younger at the end of Jedi now?

Midicolorians?!?

How does the Naboo ship have a ******* Midicolorian counter device?

Did Shmee Skywalker get knocked up by the Holy Ghost of the Force?

Why are the Jedi leading a war effort if they are peacekeepers?

Why can't the Jedi council feel Palpatine?

Or use the Force to do anything beyond physically enhance their fighting prowess?

Plus there are probably thousands of others in the prequels. There are so many stupid things in those three films that it is impossible for me to remember all of them.

There are some diamonds in the rough, but the rough is very, very rough. Most of the EU is absolute trash - worse than most fan fiction. Writing Palpatine as doing what he did to prepare the galaxy for the Yuzhan Vong (whatever) is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Then there's the constant New Republic, Galactic Alliance, New Sith Empire, New Galactic Empire, whatever garbage. It's idiotic.

So, mostly, I disregard everything in the EU, because it's too hard to separate the good ideas from the moron ideas. Do I hate it all? No, that's me being hyperbolic. Do I trust any 'sources' in the EU especially when it comes to the Force? No, absolutely not.

The EU authors have demonstrated over dozens of books that they're terrible at writing about Jedi and the Force.

Would you agree then, that even what you are accepting as canon [the six films] is pretty hit or miss themselves? There are numerous examples of sloppy writing concerning the Force and what it is capable of.

Why doesn't Vader recognize Obi-wan is on Tatooine?

Why doesn't he recognize Leia's connection to the Force?

Why isn't Vader able to find out where Yoda is?

How can Luke hide from Vader in the Throne Room?

Why isn't Luke warped by the Force lightning the way Palpatine was?

Why is Anakin younger at the end of Jedi now?

Midicolorians?!?

How does the Naboo ship have a ******* Midicolorian counter device?

Did Shmee Skywalker get knocked up by the Holy Ghost of the Force?

Why are the Jedi leading a war effort if they are peacekeepers?

Why can't the Jedi council feel Palpatine?

Or use the Force to do anything beyond physically enhance their fighting prowess?

Plus there are probably thousands of others in the prequels. There are so many stupid things in those three films that it is impossible for me to remember all of them.

Hey, I don't disagree. The Force and what exactly the hell it is is the most problematic aspect of Star Wars from a game design philosophy.

However, that doesn't make the EU any less awful. I think it's one more reason to ignore virtually everything the EU has to say on the Force. It's already confusing enough. Let's not make the situation even worse by shackling ourselves to what some two-bit hack with a hard on for making the Empire sort-of-not-evil had to say on the subject.

And Imperial Knights (gray Force users or whatever ) make me want to die.

And Imperial Knights (gray Force users or whatever ) make me want to die.

Imperial Knights are not 'gray' - they are light side Force-users that have dual commitments to the Force and to the Empire. In this, they are much like the Jedi were during the final years of the Old Republic except that they openly admit to being linked to the government as opposed to the Jedi that claim they were just allied with it.

Imperial Knights are not 'gray' - they are light side Force-users that have dual commitments to the Force and to the Empire. In this, they are much like the Jedi were during the final years of the Old Republic except that they openly admit to being linked to the government as opposed to the Jedi that claim they were just allied with it.

Wookieepedia disagrees with you.

Even if your assertion is true, Imperial Knights are a dumb idea. They're just an effort to make a 'Good'-Empire that some writers apparently need for some bizarre reason.

In Star Wars there are Jedi and Sith. The Republic is Jedi and good, the Empire is Sith and evil. This is the way it should be.

If I want a story with shades of gray and moral uncertainty, I'll watch Game of Thrones .

For those carrying over characters from EotE, GM permitting, will you be rolling into FSEm in addition to FSEx or upgrading from FSEx to FSEm?

To get back on topic. Anyone that even used Exile is someone who very much wanted to be vested in the Force, so I doubt there are many that didn't just go ahead and move to Emergent when Beta was published last year, GM permitting. I can see someone wanting to get their 3rd FRing, but beyond that, I like the Exile tree better and honestly it's a lot of xp for a Force die. I think I'd just as soon wait on F&D beta as waste the xp on Emergent personally.

Thoughts...

My players go running to the EU when things work out for them but retreat to "but in the movies they..." when it doesn't. Isn't that curious? Overall, dealing with the EU in my game has been a surprising pain in the ass, which is odd because I'm kinda a big EU guy. Pondering solutions for future games.

Emergent is worth it in my opinion to get Force Rank 3. These first Force players are the trailblazers. It may not work out as hoped/intended, but anyone enthusiastic and dedicated enough to sink the xp into it will get the benefit of the doubt from me, possibly a respec if things go south.

As far as OP, unless the rules contain something different my impression is that Emergent will be popped on in addition to Exile.

Would you agree then, that even what you are accepting as canon [the six films] is pretty hit or miss themselves? There are numerous examples of sloppy writing concerning the Force and what it is capable of.

Why doesn't Vader recognize Obi-wan is on Tatooine?

Why doesn't he recognize Leia's connection to the Force?

Why isn't Vader able to find out where Yoda is?

How can Luke hide from Vader in the Throne Room?

Why isn't Luke warped by the Force lightning the way Palpatine was?

Why is Anakin younger at the end of Jedi now?

Midicolorians?!?

How does the Naboo ship have a ******* Midicolorian counter device?

Did Shmee Skywalker get knocked up by the Holy Ghost of the Force?

Why are the Jedi leading a war effort if they are peacekeepers?

Why can't the Jedi council feel Palpatine?

Or use the Force to do anything beyond physically enhance their fighting prowess?

Plus there are probably thousands of others in the prequels. There are so many stupid things in those three films that it is impossible for me to remember all of them.

1. Because Obi-Wan is refraining from actively using the Force and concentrating on minimizing his presence. Also, Tatooine is probably the last planet in the galaxy Vader would ever want to visit again, so the chance of him stopping by are extremely slim.

2. First of all, Leia had untapped Force potential, but no actual powers or training. Lots of people are some vague connection to the Force. No reason why he should have thought twice about one of his prisoners being a sensitive. It's actual power and training that concerns Vader.

3. See answer 1, above, except Yoda is probably even better at hiding than Obi-Wan.

4. Again, Luke had learned to conceal his presence in the Force by the time of RotJ. No doubt Vader would have sensed him eventually, but hiding for half a minute shouldn't be impossible. Especially since, if we're getting a little meta here, Vader had lots of his Force dice bound up in sustaining various powers to help him fight better.

5. Palpatine drew very deep on the Dark side to channel that much hatred into his Force lightning. Luke was struck by the Force lighting. The Dark side has a corrupting effect on the wielder, not the person targeted by it.

6. Why is Anakin... I'm sorry, I don't understand what that sentence even means.

7. Presumably midi-chlorians can be detected on a standard analysis machine and doesn't require specialized equipment. I agree they're a dumb idea, but having the medical suite in a queen's personal ship have equipment good enough to analyze blood isn't what's wrong with this.

8. I seem to recall something about Darth Plagueis, Sidious' old master, being involved in this somehow.

9. Because they let themselves be talked into it, against their better judgement. They were the only people in the Republic even remotely qualified for such a task, and they knew their presence would at least help save the lives of many clones. And their connection to the Force had grown dimmer, as I believe Yoda states in one of the movies.

10. Again, see the answer above. The Jedi were gradually losing touch with the Force, making them see things less clearly. And Palpatine was very careful about not using the Force actively and generally masking his presence. Not to mention that the Jedi had absolutely no reason to suspect that a senator would be a member of an evil cult believed to have been wiped out a thousand years ago.

11. Because the Force isn't about throwing fireballs around or casting spells that kill loads of people. It has much more in common with zen buddhism and concepts like Ki/Chi than fantasy magic.

There are some diamonds in the rough, but the rough is very, very rough. Most of the EU is absolute trash - worse than most fan fiction. Writing Palpatine as doing what he did to prepare the galaxy for the Yuzhan Vong (whatever) is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Then there's the constant New Republic, Galactic Alliance, New Sith Empire, New Galactic Empire, whatever garbage. It's idiotic.

So, mostly, I disregard everything in the EU, because it's too hard to separate the good ideas from the moron ideas. Do I hate it all? No, that's me being hyperbolic. Do I trust any 'sources' in the EU especially when it comes to the Force? No, absolutely not.

The EU authors have demonstrated over dozens of books that they're terrible at writing about Jedi and the Force.

Would you agree then, that even what you are accepting as canon [the six films] is pretty hit or miss themselves? There are numerous examples of sloppy writing concerning the Force and what it is capable of.

Why doesn't Vader recognize Obi-wan is on Tatooine?

Because its the one world that makes him remember his past and thats something that effects him still and a big clue that Luke's right that he can be redeemed since why would it effect him if he didn't care any more?

Why doesn't he recognize Leia's connection to the Force?

Who says he doesn't?

Given who he is, he could and would have done far worse to her if he wanted to...

Why isn't Vader able to find out where Yoda is?

Canonically he chose that location because of that tree that serves as a dark side focus strong enough to hide him.

And to be blunt what makes you think Vader wants to find Yoda... even his master couldn't kill him!

How can Luke hide from Vader in the Throne Room?

He didn't, Vader could have found him whenever he wanted but he was searching for the means to turn Luke to the Darkside how was Vader to know finding out Leia is his sister is Luke's berserk button?!

Why isn't Luke warped by the Force lightning the way Palpatine was?

I don't remember Luke throwing lightning around...

Why is Anakin younger at the end of Jedi now?

Lucas. To be blunt that shouldn't have happened put that down to creative license...

Midicolorians?!?

Same as above not sure if it ranks as badly though...

How does the Naboo ship have a ******* Midicolorian counter device?

See above

Did Shmee Skywalker get knocked up by the Holy Ghost of the Force?

Personally they should have had her been the lover of someone Plagueis had killed and she was mind wiped and sent into slavery with her pregnancy being missed but otherwise see the other message above.

Why are the Jedi leading a war effort if they are peacekeepers?

Answer they shouldn't be if they aren't already part of the military so see above and above that...

Why can't the Jedi council feel Palpatine?

Because most of them were either incompetent or dark enough that they accepted politicians can be that dark and not be immediately smited... it helped Palpatine has plot armour almost on Batman's level... I did say almost!

Or use the Force to do anything beyond physically enhance their fighting prowess?

Not sure if even Lucas can be solely blamed for that...

Plus there are probably thousands of others in the prequels. There are so many stupid things in those three films that it is impossible for me to remember all of them.

I prefer to think of them as someone's attempt to portray what happened but doesn't have all of the necessary information or clearance to do so properly... admittedly I was tempted to say its something the sci fy channel produced but that might be a little hitting below the belt...

Ironically the only bit of the special edition version of the original trilogy i didn't like was swapping out whoever played Vader in ROTJ but you've mentioned that above anyway...

And Imperial Knights (gray Force users or whatever ) make me want to die.

Imperial Knights are not 'gray' - they are light side Force-users that have dual commitments to the Force and to the Empire. In this, they are much like the Jedi were during the final years of the Old Republic except that they openly admit to being linked to the government as opposed to the Jedi that claim they were just allied with it.

Personally if Star Wars was rebooted I'd want this as canon to explain why the Jedi were made Generals (so i guess Republic Knights well Jedi Knights would go over better to explain this!).

Personally if Star Wars was rebooted I'd want this as canon to explain why the Jedi were made Generals (so i guess Republic Knights well Jedi Knights would go over better to explain this!).

On the issue of why the Jedi were generals in the Clone Wars....

The first battle of the Clone Wars occurs on Geonosis. The Jedi do not go there looking for a fight, but rather to rescue Obi-Wan Kenobi who, in essence, was illegally detained by local criminal elements. The Republic held sway over Geonosis at the time and Obi-Wan, as a Jedi, was an authorized government agent investigating the attempted assassination of a major political figure.

The Jedi show up just as the criminals led by former Jedi Dooku have sentenced Obi-Wan to death without recourse to any of the Republic's laws governing such actions. Obviously, what the Geonosians were doing was blatantly illegal, ergo the Jedi had full legal authority to intervene.

What happens next?

Count Dooku and the Geonosians try to murder all the Jedi with a hired bounty hunter, local militia forces and a droid army seeming built just for that task. Only the intervention of a highly trained clone army saves the Jedi from being murdered.

Next, the Jedi face down Dooku and learn he has mastered the Dark Side. Dooku is evil and so must be stopped. If that means going to war against the Separatists who protect Dooku, then so be it. A truly Dark Jedi cannot be allowed to rage across the universe unchecked.

So, in effect, the Jedi weren't going to war just for the Republic. They were trying to stop what they knew 100% to be a rogue member of their own order who was fine with mass murder to gain political power over the entire galaxy.

And they knew the Sith were back due to Darth Maul and all that.

I prefer to think of them as someone's attempt to portray what happened but doesn't have all of the necessary information or clearance to do so properly... admittedly I was tempted to say its something the sci fy channel produced but that might be a little hitting below the belt...

Ironically the only bit of the special edition version of the original trilogy i didn't like was swapping out whoever played Vader in ROTJ but you've mentioned that above anyway...

I don't know, those SciFi original movies have their own charm.

I guess my point wasn't so much about specific answers to specific questions, but more about illustrating that poor writing isn't limited to the EU. The movies themselves are all over the place about the Force.

You didn't mind Greedo shooting first?

I prefer to think of them as someone's attempt to portray what happened but doesn't have all of the necessary information or clearance to do so properly... admittedly I was tempted to say its something the sci fy channel produced but that might be a little hitting below the belt...

Ironically the only bit of the special edition version of the original trilogy i didn't like was swapping out whoever played Vader in ROTJ but you've mentioned that above anyway...

I don't know, those SciFi original movies have their own charm.

I guess my point wasn't so much about specific answers to specific questions, but more about illustrating that poor writing isn't limited to the EU. The movies themselves are all over the place about the Force.

You didn't mind Greedo shooting first?

I remember a story where he was sold a blaster that didn't work properly and figured if Lucas wanted to make Greedo look a mite more competent letting him fire first and miss because he had been given a faulty blaster merely granted that story extra canon coverage...

I actually loved the bit where Han charged after those Stormtroopers into a hangar bay and was confronted by a battalion or so of Storm troopers and still managed to get out of there without being shot!

Now that scene stretched believability even if i did like it!

Now how many Destiny Points did Han turn over to pull that off?