Ok this may sound weird, but bare with me I've bean playing 40K since the 80's, this stems back to some Ye'oldie Minies I've got buried up back of my parents garage.

In the modern game are their Female Space Marines? way back in the day I got a Blister marked "Female Marine W/Plasma Gun" and an other marked "Battle Sisters" all had female characters (you can tell by the "Girl Bits" on the upper body molds and a couple of the heads) in power armor that otherwise matches Marine power armor minies of the time. over the years I've used them as Female Marines, Inquisitors, Sisters of Battle and general character models for IG and Imperial Agents in tabletop games.

I ask because one of my DH players is a Feminist, but wants to try DW and I may want to have the option of allowing her a Female character, also We've got an Antares Fan Boy who thinks he knows everything about Space Marines and I'd like to blow his mind with some "Lost Lore" from before he started playing 40K back in the mid to late 90's. back cica Y2K he chucked a hissy fit when I pulled out the Battle Sisters to fill out some squads when he insisted on a WISIWG game of 40K, they where Citadel/GW minies and the gear on the sheet matched what was on the Minies.

I've got the fluff worked out if it's allowable, Minor chapter with a stable verance in some lines of the Geanseed that allows implantation in to females, Stable Female Geenseed is rare and valuable, it is used to honor the heroic allies of the chapter by making their daughters in to Sisters of the Chapter.

If not it's no biggie Dudes can't be Sisters of Battle, so I don't see why the Antares can't be a boys only club

Space Marines are exclusively male, from 2nd Edition onward- female SMs have gone the way of half-Eldar Space Marines. If you feel like digging through old posts (I'm not sure how well the Search function works on the new-ish Forum software...) you will find several threads pushing for the inclusion of female Space Marines (invariably started by male GMs who claim to be speaking for female players, and never by those female players themselves, for some reason). The general conclusion of lengthy debates is "it ain't canon, but it's you're campaign, and you can do whatever you want".

Cool back in the day it was mostly bits of Concept Art that found it's way in to books because they where cool and Minies that got recycled in to Imperial Agents because of the cost of making the molds in the first place. I was mostly planing on doing it to bug the mice out of the Marine Fan-boy.

We have two females that play in our Deathwatch campaign. Our GM has created his own chapters for both to play as female space marines. They are basically "lost" chapters. But it allows my daughter and my buddies fiance to play as females.

If you're looking for inspiration, the Fandible podcast features a DW campaign with female space marines.

Personally, to me this is complete heresy! Marines are a boys-only club.

The alternative to that is running heroic female non-Astartes PCs - Sororitas, Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, etc. The problem here is that they are squishy in comparison. To reduce that, you can use Force Fields to good effect and/or (and this is often overlooked - amazingly, given this is how Warhammer works) give her extraordinary amounts of wound points. Think about it: the more heroic a character is in Warhammer and Warhammer 40K, the more wound points they have.

Getting +30 or more wound points (thus roundabout 40 in total) and the Hardy talent is a great equalizer unless you come under heavy full-automatic fire. And it probably gives a sufficiently heroic feel without breaking established fluff entirely. Add non-Astartes Power Armour and non-Astartes melta and you have a basic female PC who can roll with the Space Marines. (I should add that this probably makes for a 'named character' power level PC - which is precisely the point).

Alex

It's your game, and the fluff is malleable - but I'm not sure introducing female Space Marines would be good for group morale. In my opinion, it's important that the players in a party are on a common ground, as far as the background is concerned, and something as drastic as female Astartes is an idea I'd consider only after talking to each player to make sure they're okay with it. In the end, I fear all you're going to do is annoy your Marine fan.

Rather, as ak-73 already suggested, I'd stress that the Space Marines are not the only heroes in the galaxy, and that the Adeptus Astartes does not have a monopoly on Epic. This is an impression that stems mostly from the intense focus on Marines both in GW's but mostly licensed products (with novels and games that tend to feature obvious protagonists, complete with plot armour, rather than a balanced interpretation of the 'verse).

However, I'd not change anything about the "squishiness" of these characters, as to me this simply is an important part of the differences between Marines and others. What you can do instead is to give these humans Astartes-level weapons (as the gap between human and Astartes gear is an FFG idea, and indeed contradicted by GW Codex fluff), so that they are still disadvantaged when it comes to defense, but are at least able to deal equal ranged damage. And then, to give them an advantage of their own, you can come up with various special perks befitting the exact type of character, such as an Inquisitor's exotic knowledge and authority, or a Sister's Acts of Faith, to name but the most obvious examples.

I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly. The advantage of my approach is that it is consistent with the way NPCs in official DW publications have been designed. Typically, named human NPCs will have between 15 and 40 Wound Points. And they usually don't run Astartes-grade weaponry. It's not strictly necessary to have Astartes weapons - if your non-Astartes PC starts out with, say, a mortal Meltagun and moves to mortal Relics and Archaeotech at higher ranks. In fact, starting DW PCs don't have access to a meltagun and a variety of other special/heavy weapons. Nor power weapons, etc.

So it could be good.

This would present you with a very diverse team of characters who are equally heroic by having different advantages and disadvantages. And you could still blow your Marine player's mind by showing him this is possible, without going against rather established core concepts of the setting (where I feel he'd just "lock up" and accuse you of bending the 'verse). For the Sisters of Battle, Games Workshop themselves once described them as "equals to their brother Space Marines", with their burning faith and devotion making up for the lack of genetical enhancements. From experience, I can say that a lot of Marine fans are having trouble accepting this.

You got me there for a moment when I misread "...making up for the lack of genital enhancements." Wait, what?!

Alex

I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly. The advantage of my approach is that it is consistent with the way NPCs in official DW publications have been designed. Typically, named human NPCs will have between 15 and 40 Wound Points. And they usually don't run Astartes-grade weaponry. It's not strictly necessary to have Astartes weapons - if your non-Astartes PC starts out with, say, a mortal Meltagun and moves to mortal Relics and Archaeotech at higher ranks. In fact, starting DW PCs don't have access to a meltagun and a variety of other special/heavy weapons. Nor power weapons, etc.

So it could be good.

As far as I recall, named Astartes NPCs have a ton of Wounds, too. What sort of advantage is this sort of consistency supposed to be, anyways, when the consistency says "humans suck"?

They don't run Astartes-grade weaponry because FFG thought it was necessary to introduce an artificial gap - likely to address certain mechanical issues that come with how Unnatural traits and Characteristics bonuses work in this RPG.

Since I don't see a need to fake consistency to earlier products of the line, nor am convinced that Space Marines have access to better gear than the Inquisition, I'll always recommend house-ruling this in favour of how it works in the tabletop.

The problem with your solution: Giving non-Astartes a meltagun to let them level with Astartes works for exactly as long as you don't have a Space Marine asking for one, and it limits gear options of the player character. Aside from the unnecessary "your gear is crap" slap in the face of human PCs. There's an easier way to deal with this issue:

The gap is entirely unnecessary and an artificial hindrance to cross-game compatibility. So why not remove it? It's really not as if Space Marines still don't have other advantages - that are far more in line with how they are portrayed elsewhere.

You got me there for a moment when I misread "...making up for the lack of genital enhancements." Wait, what?!

lol - yeah, in retrospect it should read "genetic", shouldn't it?

mea culpa

I'm mostly being a "Bad Person" wanting to poke fun at whats probably one of my friends only two character flaws (anal retentive Space Marine Fanboyism and GW rules orthodoxy), and I was going to let one of the other players preferences be the tool of my sport combined with my attempt to help him correct a character flaw on his part.

I estimate to make a DH character competitive with a Starting Marine character I'd have to give them 5K XP (and insist they max out their Sound Constitution Talent) and around 50K Thrones.

don't need female marines, just would have bean a bit of fun to use and let fall by the wayside.once we where done with it.

As far as I recall, named Astartes NPCs have a ton of Wounds, too. What sort of advantage is this sort of consistency supposed to be, anyways, when the consistency says "humans suck"?

This too is consistent with the Warhammer and Warhammer 40K approach: superior races have heroes too and they likewise have multiple wounds. In my estimation 10 Wound Points in DW are about 1 W in 40K TT.

They don't run Astartes-grade weaponry because FFG thought it was necessary to introduce an artificial gap - likely to address certain mechanical issues that come with how Unnatural traits and Characteristics bonuses work in this RPG.

Given the Astartes focus of the game, the most logical approach then would have been to have no Astartes-grade, just have weapons that have the new, higher statline. That way human NPCs would pose more of a challenge, right? For the sake of DW RPG, they could have done this easily but they didn't. My conclusion: they wanted this gap.

Since I don't see a need to fake consistency to earlier products of the line, nor am convinced that Space Marines have access to better gear than the Inquisition, I'll always recommend house-ruling this in favour of how it works in the tabletop.

Wait - is this about your needs? I thought it was about providing options.

The problem with your solution: Giving non-Astartes a meltagun to let them level with Astartes works for exactly as long as you don't have a Space Marine asking for one, and it limits gear options of the player character. Aside from the unnecessary "your gear is crap" slap in the face of human PCs.

...I believe I already adressed that in my previous post though.

The gap is entirely unnecessary and an artificial hindrance to cross-game compatibility. So why not remove it? It's really not as if Space Marines still don't have other advantages - that are far more in line with how they are portrayed elsewhere.

If you're bothered by cross-game compatibility, just average the stats between Astartes-grade and mortal-grade. Or, if you prefer a more realistic and lethal game, take Astartes-grade for all.

However, DW starting characters are like between (at least) 30 and 60 points value in TT terms. And that increases a lot as they progress. If you compare that to what human heroes would be on equal footing, you quickly come to Canoness level and upwards. Celestine is "only" 135 points. Which means, yeah, relics and archaeotech are the way to go as your non-Astartes PC levels up (and a Canoness does have access to relics). It makes sense in the context of how 40K TT works.

To me, it also makes sense from this angle: DW PCs are in a way the most gifted of their chapter. Special talents. So if they are a cut above the run-of-the-mill Astartes and the Astartes are one (or more) cut above humans, it would take very exceptional humans to be on equal footing with them. Which in turn have better than normal gear.

Alex

This too is consistent with the Warhammer and Warhammer 40K approach: superior races have heroes too and they likewise have multiple wounds. In my estimation 10 Wound Points in DW are about 1 W in 40K TT.

In that case, why should the characters have different Wound pools? They're all heroes, including the Marine PCs - as you yourself insisted in another thread.

Given the Astartes focus of the game, the most logical approach then would have been to have no Astartes-grade, just have weapons that have the new, higher statline. That way human NPCs would pose more of a challenge, right? For the sake of DW RPG, they could have done this easily but they didn't. My conclusion: they wanted this gap.

I can't say for sure (would love to hear one of the designers tell us), but I'm assuming this was in preparation for Black Crusade - and/or simply to prevent people from scratching their heads when looking at weapon profiles a whopping 25% superior to the stuff in DH.

That, or they thought it'd underline how much better their Space Marines are in all regards, including equipment. But just because they wanted this gap doesn't mean it has to be right, or that you must abide by it.

Wait - is this about your needs? I thought it was about providing options.

Semantics. Usually, the options/ideas we propose are influenced by our own preferences ... our "needs". This goes for your suggestions as well. If you had no personal interest in this, you wouldn't argue about my counter-proposal, but simply leave it for the OP to decide what's (subjectively) best.

...I believe I already adressed that in my previous post though.

Partially. You'd have to ensure that one part of the players gets access to these "relics and artifacts" simultaneously with the Space Marines gaining access to their standard version of the same gear, which sounds like a lot of railroading and still limits players' gear choice. What if someone just wants a boltgun? Or would you invent an endless stock of "relic ammunition" for them? What about the loss of group interaction, such as a shared ammunition pool? Also, you would have to keep relics and archaeotech out of the hands of your Marines, which does not feel very fair - especially as DW offers a fair bit of Chapter-specific items in this regard, that surely many DW players would have an eye on.

Again: it's just so much more convenient to give everyone access to the same quality. Why not go the easy way? I just don't see any advantages to what you proposed - except a preservation of Astartes superiority (reinforced by your continued usage of the pejorative term "mortal"), which imho is the wrong mindset for designing a crossover to begin with.

If you're bothered by cross-game compatibility, just average the stats between Astartes-grade and mortal-grade. Or, if you prefer a more realistic and lethal game, take Astartes-grade for all.

This would work, too - though I'm not exactly sure how this would affect the survivability of the Marines. They upped the damage that much for a reason, after all.

Isn't the 2nd option what I've been proposing, though?

However, DW starting characters are like between (at least) 30 and 60 points value in TT terms.

In TT terms, a Deathwatch Space Marine is 20-30 points .

If you think it takes a Canoness or Celestine to be on equal footing with a DW character, then I can only say .. let's agree to disagree. Your vision of Space Marines would make for a setting where I don't think it's fun to play anything but a Space Marine, and at that point I would not see any value in a crossover at all. Subjectively speaking, of course.

If you need Space Marines to be that much better, best keep them segregated in their own little DW world.

In that case, why should the characters have different Wound pools? They're all heroes, including the Marine PCs - as you yourself insisted in another thread.

Heroes in tabletop terms. Beings whose statline is significantly above the average for race/army.

Semantics. Usually, the options/ideas we propose are influenced by our own preferences ... our "needs". This goes for your suggestions as well. If you had no personal interest in this, you wouldn't argue about my counter-proposal, but simply leave it for the OP to decide what's (subjectively) best.

I argued about your counter-proposal? It seems more like you're arguing about what I have been suggesting.

Partially. You'd have to ensure that one part of the players gets access to these "relics and artifacts" simultaneously with the Space Marines gaining access to their standard version of the same gear, which sounds like a lot of railroading and still limits players' gear choice. What if someone just wants a boltgun?

Well, in my experience such things solve themselves during play. Of course, non-Astartes PCs may or may not be able to requisition gear. Some PCs might have to do it the old-fashioned way: find it in scenario play. Could be fun.

Or would you invent an endless stock of "relic ammunition" for them?

Considering the Angelus Bolter, it's possible to have at least unique ammo.

What about the loss of group interaction, such as a shared ammunition pool? Also, you would have to keep relics and archaeotech out of the hands of your Marines, which does not feel very fair - especially as DW offers a fair bit of Chapter-specific items in this regard, that surely many DW players would have an eye on.

Specialty ammunition is mostly Bolter territory. Not the biggest concern. But then you're touching a very valid concern: As DW Marines reach the upper ranks (and chapter relics become likely available unless the GM is stingy on renown to keep it out of Astartes PCs hands), most mortal careers won't be able to keep up. There are not many non-Astartes human 200 point special character models, are there?

Again: it's just so much more convenient to give everyone access to the same quality. Why not go the easy way? I just don't see any advantages to what you proposed - except a preservation of Astartes superiority (reinforced by your continued usage of the pejorative term "mortal"), which imho is the wrong mindset for designing a crossover to begin with.

If you're sticking to the usual GW experience, Astartes > mortals. As DW is set up, Rank 8 Astartes are nearing Chapter Master level in combat. They're getting too powerful. So unless you put in some house rules to keep that from happening, mortal PCs will have to become über-powerful, making Saint Celestine look like a slob.

In TT terms, a Deathwatch Space Marine is 20-30 points .

If you think it takes a Canoness or Celestine to be on equal footing with a DW character, then I can only say .. let's agree to disagree. Your vision of Space Marines would make for a setting where I don't think it's fun to play anything but a Space Marine, and at that point I would not see any value in a crossover at all. Subjectively speaking, of course.

If you need Space Marines to be that much better, best keep them segregated in their own little DW world.

You got me totally wrong here. I said the power level of DW RPG Deathwatch Marine was a 30 to 60 point equivalent. Look at the number of Wounds, look at the attacks that an Assault Marine starts out with, consider the heavy weapon on the Devastator and the point cost of a Librarian (sans Psychic Hood at Rank 1). RPG DW Marines > TT DW Marines. And because they are more powerful, you either have to up the power of a Battle Sister too OR take a more powerful member of a faction for company.

Alex

Heroes in tabletop terms. Beings whose statline is significantly above the average for race/army.

I'm not sure I follow you here...

According to your earlier formula, my current DW character would have 2 W in the TT, which would make him a "hero" as well. Again, no difference.

But if you're just going by the tabletop definition, what exactly does that mean for the RPG anyways? Even if DW characters were "non-heroes" in the TT, why do you automatically assume any non-Astartes accompanying them would have to be "hero" minis?

I argued about your counter-proposal? It seems more like you're arguing about what I have been suggesting.

Well, sort of. I just said what I would do differently, not even addressing you directly. Then you addressed me directly, defending your suggestion - and simultaneously attacking mine, if you re-read your post. Thus, the debate. Which I have a feeling won't really go anywhere due to our conflicting preferences.

Also, I never claimed to be unbiased.

Considering the Angelus Bolter, it's possible to have at least unique ammo.

Do you mean the DH version or the DW version?

If you're sticking to the usual GW experience, Astartes > mortals. As DW is set up, Rank 8 Astartes are nearing Chapter Master level in combat. They're getting too powerful. So unless you put in some house rules to keep that from happening, mortal PCs will have to become über-powerful, making Saint Celestine look like a slob.

I don't see a problem with "Astartes > humans". The usual GW experience, however, includes said humans wielding the very same guns, thus dealing equal damage to the same enemy.

The trick is that in GW's version, the ">" does not apply to every single aspect of combat. Indeed, there are areas and circumstances where certain types of humans may have the ">" above the Astartes!

So, if you want "the usual GW experience", then this is something you'd have to include. Period.

But of course we'll need houserules. Starting with "everyone gets the same gear". Battle Sisters in particular are extremely easy to insert into DW by way of how similar the Orders Militant are organised: Just take an appropriate Space Marine career, remove all the implants (including Unnaturals) and swap a few Astartes for Ecclesiarchy Skills ... done! In fact, the fan supplement to which I've offered OP "early access" to is built upon this idea .

(well, okay, it's a bit more complicated than that as there are also differences in gear and abilities, but you get the idea)

You got me totally wrong here. I said the power level of DW RPG Deathwatch Marine was a 30 to 60 point equivalent. Look at the number of Wounds, look at the attacks that an Assault Marine starts out with, consider the heavy weapon on the Devastator and the point cost of a Librarian (sans Psychic Hood at Rank 1). RPG DW Marines > TT DW Marines. And because they are more powerful, you either have to up the power of a Battle Sister too OR take a more powerful member of a faction for company.

At least you're backing up my point about how, by that assessment, all DW characters would be TT heroes.

So there's no need for a difference in Wounds.

I absolutely agree that FFG DW Marines are "boosted" - and that any other character inserted into such a campaign should be "boosted" as well. Coincidentally, this is what I've done in the aforementioned supplement: the characters in there are not Sororitas as I envision them, but how they would fit into the Deathwatch RPG.

The thing is that the nature of this boost should be to give them access to what makes the RAW DW PCs (what an abbreviation) so awesome, and this isn't just 5 more Wounds compared to a starting Dark Heresy character, but it is their special Talents and high-powered equipment. So, rather than trying to somehow fit a character class that was never meant to be played in this environment into the game, my suggestion would be to take the Marine careers as template, and build something new from there. It's a bit more work, but I'm also convinced that the results are far more rewarding.

After all, would you as a player rather have more Wounds to survive ~2-3 more attacks, or the extra attacks and all the other perks you listed to actually influence the game? I know what I'd pick in order to have fun.

If we look at pure Characteristics A Marine is equal to an Elite or Champion/Sargent of a normal human. without going in to my Archives I seam to recall a Marine in his skivvies is worth four times that of a "Trained" human and eight times Joe Average according to RT 40K.

Yep! And for good reason - it's kind of a part of the background, at least for me.

The trick is to look where and how you can compensate. Not every type of human character will be "suitable" for this type of campaign, which is reflected in the official fluff as well (by looking at with whom Space Marines tend to team up with). A rank-and-file Guardsman would feel very lost in a game of Deathwatch. Again, with good reason. An Inquisitor or a Battle Sister, on the other hand? In the TT they can get the same WS and BS, the same armour, and the same guns. What they lack is the Marines' Strength and Toughness, but in the end this just means that they need to take care not to get hit - and they bring advantages of their own to compensate for these drawbacks.

Or that's how I'm seeing things, anyways.

Heck back in the 80's I used 40K RT to build a 40K RPG, we had a lone marine with basic equipment take out an entire platoon of Chaos Cultists including Support Weapons, so we repeated the test and 7 times out of 10 we had the same result, small arms meant nothing, it was the Heavy Stubbier (twice) or the Champion with the Chain Sword (once) that got him. but it took him a lot longer than 4-8 turns to finish them off.

I'm not sure I follow you here...

According to your earlier formula, my current DW character would have 2 W in the TT, which would make him a "hero" as well. Again, no difference.

But if you're just going by the tabletop definition, what exactly does that mean for the RPG anyways? Even if DW characters were "non-heroes" in the TT, why do you automatically assume any non-Astartes accompanying them would have to be "hero" minis?

The beginnings of a hero, yes. Non-Astartes would have to be champions because they would have to need more than +1W to be on equal footing. Elevating their profile significantly above that of an average member of their army.

Well, sort of. I just said what I would do differently, not even addressing you directly. Then you addressed me directly, defending your suggestion - and simultaneously attacking mine, if you re-read your post. Thus, the debate. Which I have a feeling won't really go anywhere due to our conflicting preferences.

Also, I never claimed to be unbiased.

I fail to see the attack on yours.

So, if you want "the usual GW experience", then this is something you'd have to include. Period.

But of course we'll need houserules. Starting with "everyone gets the same gear". Battle Sisters in particular are extremely easy to insert into DW by way of how similar the Orders Militant are organised: Just take an appropriate Space Marine career, remove all the implants (including Unnaturals) and swap a few Astartes for Ecclesiarchy Skills ... done! In fact, the fan supplement to which I've offered OP "early access" to is built upon this idea .

(well, okay, it's a bit more complicated than that as there are also differences in gear and abilities, but you get the idea)

Sure, you'd have to have single stats for Bolters, etc. As for your Battle Sister, she's obviously significantly weaker than the fluff marines FFG went for - even with unified weapon stats. So there must be a reason if you want all PCs to be on par: Either you make all Battle Sisters stronger than they are in GW's fluff and crunch or you make the individual Battle Sisters that roll with the Astartes be on a similar power level - which means she'd have to be a "champion" in comparison to other Battle Sisters.

She'd have to be way better than the standard sister, given that DW PCs are already better than the standard brother. And would soon reach "hero" levels.

All that presumes of course that you're not taking a stance of "I think FFG gave Marines an unjustified boost of abilities, so now I will do the same to my sisters!"

At least you're backing up my point about how, by that assessment, all DW characters would be TT heroes.

So there's no need for a difference in Wounds.

Jesus, why are you making it so difficult. In 40K Marines are already better than sisters. In FFG's game marines get an extra edge AND the PCs get some slight bonus over standard marines. That doesn't make them heroes (in the TT sense) yet but puts them on the path. If you want to introduce a Battle Sister on par with that, she needs to be way better than the average Battle Sister - and a central part of that package is usually raising WS/BS as well as W and A (and Ld). That are the most common advances in the TT to make more valuable special characters.

I absolutely agree that FFG DW Marines are "boosted"

Compared to the crunch? That is undubitably so. There's no boost in comparison to several passages from GW's own fluff though. Basically, GW did the inflation itself.

and that any other character inserted into such a campaign should be "boosted" as well.

I believe the point of the boost was to set Astartes apart. The way they are in parts of GW's fluff.

Coincidentally, this is what I've done in the aforementioned supplement: the characters in there are not Sororitas as I envision them, but how they would fit into the Deathwatch RPG.

Yeah, but if someone thinks that Sisters shouldn't be that good in general - the alternative is to create heroic Sister PCs... which traditionally involves boosting Wounds. Such a heroic sister would have to be just below Canoness level, judging by the TT point cost.

The thing is that the nature of this boost should be to give them access to what makes the RAW DW PCs (what an abbreviation) so awesome, and this isn't just 5 more Wounds compared to a starting Dark Heresy character, but it is their special Talents and high-powered equipment. So, rather than trying to somehow fit a character class that was never meant to be played in this environment into the game, my suggestion would be to take the Marine careers as template, and build something new from there. It's a bit more work, but I'm also convinced that the results are far more rewarding.

After all, would you as a player rather have more Wounds to survive ~2-3 more attacks, or the extra attacks and all the other perks you listed to actually influence the game? I know what I'd pick in order to have fun.

Oh, a heroic level Battle Sister could be loads of fun. She'd have to have access to completely different talents of course. And she'd have to come with a heap of talents from the start, likely Lightning Attack already included, latest on Rank 2 or 3.

Do you realize that most DW games are being run without full use of Squad Mode abilities? Or rather: with only sporadic use?

A fairly high-Rank DH Battle Sister with extra wounds could very well roll with the Astartes and it could be lots of fun. I think that, yes. In fact, I believe my own DH Scum with extra wounds, new PA and 2 inferno pistols could be fun in DW.

Alex

Ok visiting the Rents today to catch up for Easter, before I left I checked my 40K archive box, according to 40K RT a Marine in the Buff costs 8 Points, and a Trained Human 5 Points. In full kit a Marine was worth 20 points and a IG Trooper 8 points. When Army List Space Marines came out the Template was amended and points up'ed to 10 or 25 in full basic kit or as high as 30 for the normal kit, a Gardsman still cost 5 points but with his Army list basic gear was now worth 10 points.

The beginnings of a hero, yes. Non-Astartes would have to be champions because they would have to need more than +1W to be on equal footing. Elevating their profile significantly above that of an average member of their army.

I've addressed this further down in my post. And you're getting rather picky in your arguments here. "Beginnings of a hero"? Either a character is above the standard for their race, or he is not. Period.

You've also kind of dodged my question. Why do you believe non-Astartes minis accompanying Space Marines would have to be Champions, if the rank-and-file already comes with sufficient (equal) potential for ranged damage? The only difference is resilience (T) and melee damage (S) - human Champions did not even get additional Toughness and Strength, OR additional Wounds , and I don't believe giving them UT and US in the RPG is the right thing to do. The key is not to make everyone the same, but to give everyone a mix of "equal footing" plus an advantage of their own.

Which is, again, why I'm saying: just replicate the equality that already exists in the TT by making sure they can deal the same ranged damage in the RPG, too. It's not so hard.

All that presumes of course that you're not taking a stance of "I think FFG gave Marines an unjustified boost of abilities, so now I will do the same to my sisters!"

Isn't that what I said I'd do in my previous post?

"This is what I've done in the aforementioned supplement: the characters in there are not Sororitas as I envision them, but how they would fit into the Deathwatch RPG."

The same applies to any other human characters you'd insert into a game of Deathwatch, of course. Due to Demeanours, Squad Modes and a few specific Talents (all of which you may find are absent from FFG's Black Crusade that also features Marines next to humans), the game is already OTT by itself, so there is (1) no reason to hold back just for one group of characters, yet (2) a necessity to "catch up" to ensure the game is fun for everyone.

In other words, you just have to bridge the gap between BC Marines and DW Marines, by giving human DW characters the same boost. The rest is just a matter of giving them equal access to wargear - and this is an area where I have proof that FFG Marines have been bosted in comparison to GW's take on the setting. But you should already be aware of it.

Jesus, why are you making it so difficult. In 40K Marines are already better than sisters. In FFG's game marines get an extra edge AND the PCs get some slight bonus over standard marines. That doesn't make them heroes (in the TT sense) yet but puts them on the path. If you want to introduce a Battle Sister on par with that, she needs to be way better than the average Battle Sister - and a central part of that package is usually raising WS/BS as well as W and A (and Ld). That are the most common advances in the TT to make more valuable special characters.

I am making it difficult because you're not making sense. WS/BS are already equal in the TT, as are their weapons, as is their armour. I am argueing to translate this equality into the RPG, whereas you seem convinced that rather than giving them access to the same equipment, for some reason it'd be better to make sure they survive 2-3 more hits. I fail to see how this balances things in a superior way.

For Battle Sisters in particular, the TT already offers another balancing factor: Acts of Faith, which can temporarily boost a Sister's profile to well beyond that of a Space Marine. This is the equality you're looking for.

Let me demonstrate with a picture:

Obviously, this is a very simplified graph, but you get the idea. In practice, a Marine's and a Sister's combat efficiency can be perpetually equal if both are just shooting at an enemy without getting hit. Just like in practice a Sister might waste her AoF by not using it right, or failing to trigger it. Still, this should give you an idea of what I'd be aiming to recreate in an RPG.

Compared to the crunch? That is undubitably so. There's no boost in comparison to several passages from GW's own fluff though. Basically, GW did the inflation itself.

And there are other passages which you're ignoring. We've already been there. Let's just agree to disagree, mhm?

If you want to argue the TT - as you did over the past couple posts - then at least we have some solid numbers and rules to discuss, and an actual common ground for a debate.

Yeah, but if someone thinks that Sisters shouldn't be that good in general - the alternative is to create heroic Sister PCs... which traditionally involves boosting Wounds. Such a heroic sister would have to be just below Canoness level, judging by the TT point cost.

If that's what you think, then that's it. You'll find that not everyone agrees with this assessment, for the aforementioned reasons.

Do you realize that most DW games are being run without full use of Squad Mode abilities? Or rather: with only sporadic use?

Nope! If this is really so, it goes to show how clunky the ruleset is, kind of reinforcing my opinion about stuff like Squad Modes.

I actually like the idea, but as with so many other things (including Hordes, too), I find the execution ... wanting.

I estimate to make a DH character competitive with a Starting Marine character I'd have to give them 5K XP (and insist they max out their Sound Constitution Talent) and around 50K Thrones.

No, XP-wise, you need to be using Ascension, as an XP-equivalent DH character has about as much XP as a starting Space Marine (13,000 or so).

Honestly this is a Bad Idea for many reasons, not the least being the Ascension rules are crap and how the DW and DH systems and power levels were not designed to mesh, which causes a clusterf***of challenges. E.g. a DH character will be a much more competent skill-monkey than any Astarte, since they actually can spend 13,000 XP rather than 1000 of that 13,000. The result is they will easily make most skill-based challenges (that could actually challenge Space Marines) pretty trivial for the party to get around. This is an important consideration in planning missions.

And DH psychic rules use a completely different system from DW, to the point where pretty much any Ascended DH character with psychic powers is one step away from being broken, whether they're a Primaris or an Inquisitor. DH psykers by themselves trivialize encounters through the Minor Power system, when you add in Unnatural Willpower and Force Barrage there are stories of them soloing groups of Greater Daemons. In DW, only a Black Templar can reliably do that.

On the flip side, DH characters are flimsy and won't have the Unnaturals, implanted organs, etc that allow DW characters to take as much damage, and lack Squad Mode access as well (which is the key for Kill-Teams to overwhelm opponents, by breaking the action economy).

I think you should pick a game line and stick with it for everyone. DH and DW are rather incompatible rules-wise, which is always a much bigger headache than fluff-wise. Also, like, are you so sure that a female player would have trouble playing a male character, or is that just assumptions/projecting?

I think you should pick a game line and stick with it for everyone. DH and DW are rather incompatible rules-wise, which is always a much bigger headache than fluff-wise. Also, like, are you so sure that a female player would have trouble playing a male character, or is that just assumptions/projecting?

I have an idea about how DH and DW can be combined - you turn Rank 1 DH characters into Rank 1 RT-equivalents and then level up to 13,000 xp.

Here's how to do it: Create a DH character as normal - but give the PC +5 on all characteristics. Every Weapon Training talent gives you the talent as Weapon Training(Universal) talent for that category of weapon (Melee, Power, Pistol, Basic, Heavy). You can use all of the weapons of that category as trained.

Now your PC is roughly 4,500 points worth as per RT. Which means you normally have 8,500 xp to spend but this is probably too much. 6,000 to 7,000 xp should do to catch up with DW PCs. Weapon Training should cost double for you but counts as "Universal" for that type.

For Gear the PC can have anything which is Rare or more common - but all in best quality! Any Starting Gear they can keep (in best quality). A single Very Rare item may be chosen too (normal quality - or good if it's not too powerful).

During play you get half the XP of the DW PCs. That's because they need about double the amount to buy something or get to next rank.

That should roundabout do it.

Alex

The female player in question prefers to play female characters and only has a few problems playing guys. the main reason I wanted to include la fem marine was to put one up the Antares fanboy. but as I've said it's no big loss either way.

Well, I mean, you certainly could with little or no game modifications. Another poster has made and integrated a very Sister of Battle-esque ancient female-only Chapter and it seemed to work well for him.

[...]

I ask because one of my DH players is a Feminist [...]

[...]

Why on Earth would you put you and your group through that?

Also, I never understood why people "want to play DW" but "Dun' wan be Space Marine" . It's cropped up a few times, the issue being that Deathwatch was always intended to be Space Marines only, and it plays as a game with only Space Marines, balanced for all the players to be Space Marines.

I want to keep Non-Marine PC's out of the DW game I hope to run, hence why I asked in the first place. I has hoping to give one player options and stick it to an other player who discounts any 40K stuff published pre-2000.