"stay at range 3" - kinda awkward. You have to fly backwards to pull that one off really. On a 3x3 map you are either bombing away at full pelt then koigren turn getting one hit before getting shot as you run, or you are skirting the edge keeping away but not getting any shots in. Well thats how it seemed on the night. Believe me I was trying to stay at range 3 or further..

Yeah I would re-work that point to "avoid range 2." Try to go from range 3 to avoid ions and blasters, straight to range 1 where you can start stacking dice on them (and accept that you'll probably get ioned in the process). Range 2 only caters to the turret and that's bad.

Personally I think it's kinda tasteless to bring an all turret force....

...going all in on them establishes that you are trying to win at the expense of your opponent's enjoyment. The community suffers when that becomes a list-building strategy.

I can see your point, because personally I feel the same way about no name tie swarm lists. On the other hand, some people might actually enjoy fielding these lists and it fits their idea of what the game should be.

Meh, I like shooting no-name TIEs. That's the only kind of TIE in the movies! TIE swarms are tough, no doubt about it, but at least they still play the same game as everyone else. They don't just invalidate the advantages of some ships by their very presence.

They don't just invalidate the advantages of some ships by their very presence.

With respect I think they do. My last match there were three of us so a friend and I split 100 points of imps against a byby list. I took a howl, mini swarm and my friend flanked with two squints. The swarm's two attack against 1 def meant that the b's and y's durability was erased by heavy focus fire. Especially when we got a proper furball at range 1. Howl died, but her pyre was lit with the other guy's entire list.

Ions are only handy when another ship can take advantage of the shot. Blasters burn focus so they hit less hard and can be totally denied by collisions.

I like the turrets and think they are well balanced counters to hyper mobility.

Yeah but the lesson there is focus fire kills resilient ships--it's not specific to TIE swarms.

Turrets are definitely counters to mobility and I usually include 1 (maybe 2 in a competitive list) to level the playing field a bit. But a person packing 4 turrets is trying to take mobility out of the game entirely, and don't care that they're playing a boring list with no skill required. On the plus side, if anyone wins a battle with an all turret list, at least they'll never get credit for being a good player--even if they happen to be one.

Ions are only handy when another ship can take advantage of the shot. Blasters burn focus so they hit less hard and can be totally denied by collisions.

I dont agree with this at all. Ions are a rebel weapon - so are going to often (mostly) be up against imperal ships. What sheilds do most imperials have? Oh none on the tie fighers or interceptors.

Ions roll 3 dice. Thats pretty tough. Ok so only one damage? Thats a third of a tie gone - and then ioned too. Two turrent ships - you are at 6 dice.. it adds up to regular and consistant damage.

its time to ge our own turrets for empire to pay it back ;P

give is the tie avenger and tie sentinel thx k bye ;P

those variants had rear gunner turets not sure if it was 360 degree but 180 degree would help aswell cause it was the rear gunner of that vehicle ;P

Totally agree; that is why I will never buy a falcon. It sort of breaks the game a bit.

A swarm will crush y and crow turrets, so if need be, go with that:(. Too bad it is also a boring way to play... I am much more an interceptor/a wing guy, so much more fun to fly!

Personally I think it's kinda tasteless to bring an all turret force. As much as it sounds good to "stay at range 3" it's also very impossible because your opponent will endeavor to bring you closer.

I think a turret (maybe 2) is a great equalizer against high mobility lists that would otherwise pick rebs apart, but going all in on them establishes that you are trying to win at the expense of your opponent's enjoyment. The community suffers when that becomes a list-building strategy.

I'm sure German fighter pilots in WW II thought it was "pretty tasteless" and "unenjoyable" and that the community of military aviators and the meta of the whole art of aerial warfare suffered when they had to face formations of heavily armed Allied bombers ale to put out tons of firepower in every direction. It is, however a realistic situation brought on by the need to come up with a solution of how to defend themselves from small numbers of heavily armed "destroyers" (ex. Me 110/Me 410 or TIE/In/B-wing) or hoards of more maneuverable but lesser armed craft (ex. Me 109 or TIE/Ln/A-wings).

In short, it is a legitimate tactical situation that you will have to learn how to deal with. Does it take less skill to fly an all turret list? Perhaps. But every turreted ship also pays a price in something, whether it is speed, maneuverability, or points.

What it really comes down to are the dice rolls.

No matter what in this game, no matter how well you fly, and line up your shots, if you roll crap you will lose either way

What it really comes down to are the dice rolls.

No matter what in this game, no matter how well you fly, and line up your shots, if you roll crap you will lose either way

Blaming the random factor claims that there is no skill to this game, and that is patently and obviously untrue.

As for Turret lists being Tasteless. Bull. If Turrets are what you enjoy then you should play them. They aren't broken, or even overpowered. They don't hurt the game or make it unfun unless you want it to. And of course they will get you within range two sometimes. If this was a game where ships could avoid arc forever it wouldn't be a well designed game. But you can avoid their arcs just fine and fire back. Except for the Falcon.

I find the Falcon annoying, but that has more to do with it's manueverability and the amount of accuracy stacking it can have paired with a Turret than the Turret itself. If the thing could miss, or lose arc(either one) I wouldn't be so annoyed by it. But even then, I have no issue with people who play it. I just want to kill it fast.

While I happen to think the turret on a YT makes the game pretty 'meh', I'm not really so sure I'd say the upgrade turrets do that. And here's why:

1) They actually are still fairly easy to evade. You just take a lot of evade actions until you're ready to hit hard. They only roll 3 dice (considerable less than range 1 B-Wings, X-Wings, and YTs) and on average you're only looking at 2 hits. Roll one on an evade die and with your evade action, you should be golden most of the time.

2) It also makes your opponents moves even MORE predictable, since they tend to just cruise around and try to get turret shots. They almost never more more than 1-2 in a direction lest they move out of their range limitation. Interceptors eat that for breakfast. It's very easy to maneuver a squad of interceptors within range 1 of a Y-wing and stay out of it's arc, which is fine because...

3) Turret-equipped ships are the rare rebel ship that you don't have to give a womprats arse about jousting/being in range 1 of because their turrets don't get the extra attack die at close range. Normally unshielded craft have to rely on higher PS or maneuverability to stay alive long enough to fire. But they have to worry much more about you. An Interceptor throws four attack dice at range 1, and even a regular TIE throws three. Against the 1 evade of a Y-Wing, they have a lot more to worry about than you do. Especially if you've brought the entire squad (or close to it) to bear on one of them.

4) Ionization can be your friend. So, they've managed to score a hit on an interceptor/TIE and now they know where he's going to end up. He's toast next turn, right? They're gonna all come around and bear down on him to take him out… which means you can pretty well guess where all of them will end up too. Make 'em pay for it.

What it really comes down to are the dice rolls.

No matter what in this game, no matter how well you fly, and line up your shots, if you roll crap you will lose either way

Yeah, but the dice are a pretty neutral force. There's the occasional game where the dice win someone a game, but most of the time it's not hard to control your dice well enough to win. In fact you win by controlling your dice.

Blaming the random factor claims that there is no skill to this game, and that is patently and obviously untrue.

As for Turret lists being Tasteless. Bull. If Turrets are what you enjoy then you should play them. They aren't broken, or even overpowered. They don't hurt the game or make it unfun unless you want it to. And of course they will get you within range two sometimes. If this was a game where ships could avoid arc forever it wouldn't be a well designed game. But you can avoid their arcs just fine and fire back. Except for the Falcon.

I find the Falcon annoying, but that has more to do with it's manueverability and the amount of accuracy stacking it can have paired with a Turret than the Turret itself. If the thing could miss, or lose arc(either one) I wouldn't be so annoyed by it. But even then, I have no issue with people who play it. I just want to kill it fast.

There are a lot of factors that come into play.

Set up, asteroid placement, flying, colliding.

There is a lot of skill, but in the end the dice decides who wins.

I've played games where I've rolled 8 attack dice and would roll all blanks and one hit. Even though I had a focus did nothing to help.

I've seen games where my opponent would roll all hits, every time and I'd roll blanks even with 4 evade dice.

The are ways to alter the dice and etc but like I said, what it comes down to is the dice.

Is all odds. The more dice you roll, the better the chances, but even if you fly perfect and your opponent crashes around like a bunch of clowns, you can't win if you roll blanks, and your opponent rolls hits every time.

I've seen it more than I've cared for.

I've nearly threw the dice out on multiple occasions where we would play, first round of attacking I remember I focus fired on a a wing with a bounty hunter, tie interceptor, and fighters, not a single hit, then he turned around and killed 2 of my ships.

I flew it just right. I was where I wanted to be. Logically that many ships firing at an a wing should have killed it but it didn't. He even agreed as to what took place was not right.

It was all in the dice. Even with target locks and focus, It didn't matter.

I believed at that time I counted 13 dice is what I rolled because some were in range one.

After first round of attacking I had no choice but to forfeit cause there was no way coming back after that.

I forget all the details but do know I had rolled something like 12-13 attack dice and when I was defending he rolled all hits and I didn't roll a single dodge or focus.

How do you defend against that? Especially when I had the first attack and the dice were just the worst rolls?

Honestly I've never seen someone roll as good as he does. Even others who played against him can't seem to understand how someone can roll so **** lucky

It was one of the biggest piss offs that I've had, and nearly caused my to stop playing

What it really comes down to are the dice rolls.

No matter what in this game, no matter how well you fly, and line up your shots, if you roll crap you will lose either way

Yeah, but the dice are a pretty neutral force. There's the occasional game where the dice win someone a game, but most of the time it's not hard to control your dice well enough to win. In fact you win by controlling your dice.

Blaming the random factor claims that there is no skill to this game, and that is patently and obviously untrue.

As for Turret lists being Tasteless. Bull. If Turrets are what you enjoy then you should play them. They aren't broken, or even overpowered. They don't hurt the game or make it unfun unless you want it to. And of course they will get you within range two sometimes. If this was a game where ships could avoid arc forever it wouldn't be a well designed game. But you can avoid their arcs just fine and fire back. Except for the Falcon.

I find the Falcon annoying, but that has more to do with it's manueverability and the amount of accuracy stacking it can have paired with a Turret than the Turret itself. If the thing could miss, or lose arc(either one) I wouldn't be so annoyed by it. But even then, I have no issue with people who play it. I just want to kill it fast.

I never said there is no skill to this game.

There are a lot of factors that come into play.

Set up, asteroid placement, flying, colliding.

There is a lot of skill, but in the end the dice decides who wins.

I've played games where I've rolled 8 attack dice and would roll all blanks and one hit. Even though I had a focus did nothing to help.

I've seen games where my opponent would roll all hits, every time and I'd roll blanks even with 4 evade dice.

The are ways to alter the dice and etc but like I said, what it comes down to is the dice.

Is all odds. The more dice you roll, the better the chances, but even if you fly perfect and your opponent crashes around like a bunch of clowns, you can't win if you roll blanks, and your opponent rolls hits every time.

I've seen it more than I've cared for.

I've nearly threw the dice out on multiple occasions where we would play, first round of attacking I remember I focus fired on a a wing with a bounty hunter, tie interceptor, and fighters, not a single hit, then he turned around and killed 2 of my ships.

I flew it just right. I was where I wanted to be. Logically that many ships firing at an a wing should have killed it but it didn't. He even agreed as to what took place was not right.

It was all in the dice. Even with target locks and focus, It didn't matter.

I believed at that time I counted 13 dice is what I rolled because some were in range one.

After first round of attacking I had no choice but to forfeit cause there was no way coming back after that.

I forget all the details but do know I had rolled something like 12-13 attack dice and when I was defending he rolled all hits and I didn't roll a single dodge or focus.

How do you defend against that? Especially when I had the first attack and the dice were just the worst rolls?

Honestly I've never seen someone roll as good as he does. Even others who played against him can't seem to understand how someone can roll so **** lucky

It was one of the biggest piss offs that I've had, and nearly caused my to stop playing

Ah, i get the problem. I see what you did wrong. You haven't sacrificed your goat yet. Get on that, and remember, only brass daggers will work.

What it really comes down to are the dice rolls.

No matter what in this game, no matter how well you fly, and line up your shots, if you roll crap you will lose either way

Yeah, but the dice are a pretty neutral force. There's the occasional game where the dice win someone a game, but most of the time it's not hard to control your dice well enough to win. In fact you win by controlling your dice.

Blaming the random factor claims that there is no skill to this game, and that is patently and obviously untrue.

As for Turret lists being Tasteless. Bull. If Turrets are what you enjoy then you should play them. They aren't broken, or even overpowered. They don't hurt the game or make it unfun unless you want it to. And of course they will get you within range two sometimes. If this was a game where ships could avoid arc forever it wouldn't be a well designed game. But you can avoid their arcs just fine and fire back. Except for the Falcon.

I find the Falcon annoying, but that has more to do with it's manueverability and the amount of accuracy stacking it can have paired with a Turret than the Turret itself. If the thing could miss, or lose arc(either one) I wouldn't be so annoyed by it. But even then, I have no issue with people who play it. I just want to kill it fast.

I never said there is no skill to this game.

There are a lot of factors that come into play.

Set up, asteroid placement, flying, colliding.

There is a lot of skill, but in the end the dice decides who wins.

I've played games where I've rolled 8 attack dice and would roll all blanks and one hit. Even though I had a focus did nothing to help.

I've seen games where my opponent would roll all hits, every time and I'd roll blanks even with 4 evade dice.

The are ways to alter the dice and etc but like I said, what it comes down to is the dice.

Is all odds. The more dice you roll, the better the chances, but even if you fly perfect and your opponent crashes around like a bunch of clowns, you can't win if you roll blanks, and your opponent rolls hits every time.

I've seen it more than I've cared for.

I've nearly threw the dice out on multiple occasions where we would play, first round of attacking I remember I focus fired on a a wing with a bounty hunter, tie interceptor, and fighters, not a single hit, then he turned around and killed 2 of my ships.

I flew it just right. I was where I wanted to be. Logically that many ships firing at an a wing should have killed it but it didn't. He even agreed as to what took place was not right.

It was all in the dice. Even with target locks and focus, It didn't matter.

I believed at that time I counted 13 dice is what I rolled because some were in range one.

After first round of attacking I had no choice but to forfeit cause there was no way coming back after that.

I forget all the details but do know I had rolled something like 12-13 attack dice and when I was defending he rolled all hits and I didn't roll a single dodge or focus.

How do you defend against that? Especially when I had the first attack and the dice were just the worst rolls?

Honestly I've never seen someone roll as good as he does. Even others who played against him can't seem to understand how someone can roll so **** lucky

It was one of the biggest piss offs that I've had, and nearly caused my to stop playing

Would anyone like any cheese?

Would anyone like any cheese?

What kind? Cheese is good. People should buy more cheese. Buying more cheese helps my employment and thus helps me.

Would anyone like any cheese?

What kind? Cheese is good. People should buy more cheese. Buying more cheese helps my employment and thus helps me.

Personally I think it's kinda tasteless to bring an all turret force. As much as it sounds good to "stay at range 3" it's also very impossible because your opponent will endeavor to bring you closer.

I think a turret (maybe 2) is a great equalizer against high mobility lists that would otherwise pick rebs apart, but going all in on them establishes that you are trying to win at the expense of your opponent's enjoyment. The community suffers when that becomes a list-building strategy.

I'm sure German fighter pilots in WW II thought it was "pretty tasteless" and "unenjoyable" and that the community of military aviators and the meta of the whole art of aerial warfare suffered when they had to face formations of heavily armed Allied bombers ale to put out tons of firepower in every direction. It is, however a realistic situation brought on by the need to come up with a solution of how to defend themselves from small numbers of heavily armed "destroyers" (ex. Me 110/Me 410 or TIE/In/B-wing) or hoards of more maneuverable but lesser armed craft (ex. Me 109 or TIE/Ln/A-wings).

Good point. This game is exactly like real life aerial combat in WWII. I've always been impressed that Allied and Axis powers agreed to 100 point battles before they fought. It would've been so unbalanced otherwise.

In short, it is a legitimate tactical situation that you will have to learn how to deal with. Does it take less skill to fly an all turret list? Perhaps. But every turreted ship also pays a price in something, whether it is speed, maneuverability, or points.

Not perhaps. The answer is yes. You could practically play with your dials face up and the game would unfold very much the same way. Turreted ships don't pay a price in speed or maneuverability but they do pay a price in points. A very acceptable price. It's like arguing that PtL is bad because it isn't free.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I exclusively play rebels, so this isn't founded in some bad experience or sour grapes that there exists a counter to hyper-mobility. I'm not whining, I just think an all-turret force is a coward's way out.

My recommendation:

If you're playing a "friendly" game against an all turret squadron and you both have time after the battle, offer to switch forces and play again. They probably won't have too much fun either.

Personally I think it's kinda tasteless to bring an all turret force. As much as it sounds good to "stay at range 3" it's also very impossible because your opponent will endeavor to bring you closer.

I think a turret (maybe 2) is a great equalizer against high mobility lists that would otherwise pick rebs apart, but going all in on them establishes that you are trying to win at the expense of your opponent's enjoyment. The community suffers when that becomes a list-building strategy.

I'm sure German fighter pilots in WW II thought it was "pretty tasteless" and "unenjoyable" and that the community of military aviators and the meta of the whole art of aerial warfare suffered when they had to face formations of heavily armed Allied bombers ale to put out tons of firepower in every direction. It is, however a realistic situation brought on by the need to come up with a solution of how to defend themselves from small numbers of heavily armed "destroyers" (ex. Me 110/Me 410 or TIE/In/B-wing) or hoards of more maneuverable but lesser armed craft (ex. Me 109 or TIE/Ln/A-wings).

Good point. This game is exactly like real life aerial combat in WWII. I've always been impressed that Allied and Axis powers agreed to 100 point battles before they fought. It would've been so unbalanced otherwise.

In short, it is a legitimate tactical situation that you will have to learn how to deal with. Does it take less skill to fly an all turret list? Perhaps. But every turreted ship also pays a price in something, whether it is speed, maneuverability, or points.

Not perhaps. The answer is yes. You could practically play with your dials face up and the game would unfold very much the same way. Turreted ships don't pay a price in speed or maneuverability but they do pay a price in points. A very acceptable price. It's like arguing that PtL is bad because it isn't free.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I exclusively play rebels, so this isn't founded in some bad experience or sour grapes that there exists a counter to hyper-mobility. I'm not whining, I just think an all-turret force is a coward's way out.

My recommendation:

If you're playing a "friendly" game against an all turret squadron and you both have time after the battle, offer to switch forces and play again. They probably won't have too much fun either.

I don't think you get how I'm describing them. I'm not saying they are OP or broken. I'm saying they're like training wheels for people who can't, or don't want to maneuver well. Not every rebel player needs a crutch, that's why they aren't the most common.

I don't think you get how I'm describing them. I'm not saying they are OP or broken. I'm saying they're like training wheels for people who can't, or don't want to maneuver well. Not every rebel player needs a crutch, that's why they aren't the most common.

That is calling them OP. Anything termed as a crutch is being called too good to create fair play. It's calling players that use them inferior. The implications are all there and adopting that mentality builds resentment in the community. Turret upgrades are functionally bad for your squads overall damage. The Blaster Turret is overpriced and requires support or one of two upgrades to work without being horrible. The ion turret is only situationally useful and is slow to deal damage. Using them right and knowing when to and not to takes a great deal of skill and awareness. The Falcon costs as much as any two rebel ships most of the time, cutting down their damage. That makes the squads that use them innefective for the most part. Pretty much implies they are not a crutch.

It's pretty easy to forecast where a turreted vehicle will go. I suggest going at them at angles so only one Turret can get a shot at you. It can be tough, but never fly just straight at them. The range 2-1 is actually pretty debilitating if you have good spatial awareness, and since they get no bump at range one if you can kill a Turret during first combat, try to close to one for second combat (hopefully easily killing another or 2) then gtfo. You cannot live if you chose to turn around too close to a Turret and you give them a free turn or two to shoot at ya.

My 2 Lincolns (that speak is to hip for my jive)

Or a French cheese...

ITT: People who don't understand how to play against turrets make loud complaints about how "OP" turrets are.

Seriously, turrets aren't that hard...you just have to think when you encounter them. Sometimes you have to change your strategy

I played against an all-turret list on the last Store Championship. 1 Gold, Dutch, 2 Rebel Ops all with Blaster and some other crap. I ripped them apart with Wedge+swarm & Garven & Biggs & Proto A. It wasn't a game, it was an execution. First of his ships killed on first combat contact at R3, with no return fire from him. Then I got close and threw 4 dice at his low defense ships.

So, I don't fear all turret. They might look scary, but they have too many weaknesses. Falcon would have been different, of course :-)

ITT: People who don't understand how to play against turrets make loud complaints about how "OP" turrets are.

Seriously, turrets aren't that hard...you just have to think when you encounter them. Sometimes you have to change your strategy

I agree but I would't say that they "aren't that hard."

Turrets certainly present a challenge for sure, but like you said, it is a challenge that can most definitely be met by changing your strategy.

Turrets are not over powered and most definitely have a place in our game.

A poor player Turrets do not make.