Hi y'all. Again new player trying to figure all this out. The recent rule change/clarification regarding initiative has alot of people clamoring to give it away. I can't seem to figure out why you would not want initiative. My fleet and play time are limited so there might be an obvious answer. And once you give it away, the enemy gets to fire his equal PS first correct? So wedge vs. fel. The player with initiative shoots first, right? Thanks.

By passing on initiative you can move after equal PS ships and get a TL. It also allows interceptors to position after everyone else in their PS bracket.

Hi y'all. Again new player trying to figure all this out. The recent rule change/clarification regarding initiative has alot of people clamoring to give it away. I can't seem to figure out why you would not want initiative. My fleet and play time are limited so there might be an obvious answer. And once you give it away, the enemy gets to fire his equal PS first correct? So wedge vs. fel. The player with initiative shoots first, right? Thanks.

I think movement is probably the biggest answer right now. Some lists work best if you move last, so that you can see the setup. I can't see why you'd want to shoot last though..

In general, not having initiative is a good thing during combat. It only matters for ships of equal PS. Even if one of your ships is destroyed by an enemy of equal PS, it will get the shoot back before it's destroyed. Having more information about the state of the field is always better; so shooting second is, in general, better.

There are only a couple of scenarios where having initiative during combat gives you an advantage. Turr Phennir is one of them, since he can boost/barrel roll out of the arcs.

Now, the Activation phase is a whole other story. Having initiative gives you tactical advantages (such as denying action economy), whereas not having initiative gives you positional advantages. Some squads value one over the other, so being able to choose whether you have initiative or not is a great option to have.

Simply, moving later is much more beneficial than moving earlier in most situations.

Listen to the other posters, they have given some good tips.

Also, moving after your opponent can help with target locks, as you're more likely to be in range if you move second in an initial pass, which is important for bomber type lists.

When ships of the same PS attack last, they have more info about when to potentially use their focus token. If they might live it may be worth using to make opponent waste another shot. If they are dead for sure, they may as well save it for the attack. This has come in very handy for me many times. If you attack first you might never know if you'll need it for defense before you have to decide to use it to attack.

It's an totally legit question.

Let's take an example of 2 identical PS 6 lists of 3 x Royal Guards with TL computer, Stealth and PTL (yes, it's only 90 points in total but it'll do nicely for this example):

Player A has the initiative and places first asteroid, then B etc.

Player A sets up his 3 Squints. Then Player B can place his and thus have the benefit of knowing the opponents placement and can react/adjust the tactics accordingly for his own deployment. This is the first "bonus" for some.

In our example Player B chooses to joust against A's squad

After the planning phase Player A moves his ships first, choosing 5 straight and a boost but still can't Target Lock since Player B's ships are all out of range. A doesn't use PTL on any of the Interceptors.

Now Player B moves his ships 5 straight forward. This brings (one by one) all of B's ships within TL range of A's ships, so B chooses to TL AND use PTL to Focus.

So when the combat Phase begins player A will have 3 x 3 Attack dice (without modifiers) against 3 x 5 Defense dice (with possible Focus modification) at Range 3.

When Player B returns fire he will have the same number of dices BUT with re rolls and possible Focus (if not used for defense roll) while player A doesn't have any modifiers. And even if player B's ships were somehow all killed at the first barrage from A they would still get to shoot back at A (simultaneous attacks rule)

So that's one example of how it can be better to not have init. Positioning, boosting/barrel rolls are other incidents/options

Now I don't know. Moving first can be nice, because yo already know where the enemy is, and don't have to worry about colliding.

I've messed up my opponents moves many times getting in his way

It's an totally legit question.

Let's take an example of 2 identical PS 6 lists of 3 x Royal Guards with TL computer, Stealth and PTL (yes, it's only 90 points in total but it'll do nicely for this example):

Player A has the initiative and places first asteroid, then B etc.

Player A sets up his 3 Squints. Then Player B can place his and thus have the benefit of knowing the opponents placement and can react/adjust the tactics accordingly for his own deployment. This is the first "bonus" for some.

In our example Player B chooses to joust against A's squad

After the planning phase Player A moves his ships first, choosing 5 straight and a boost but still can't Target Lock since Player B's ships are all out of range. A doesn't use PTL on any of the Interceptors.

Now Player B moves his ships 5 straight forward. This brings (one by one) all of B's ships within TL range of A's ships, so B chooses to TL AND use PTL to Focus.

So when the combat Phase begins player A will have 3 x 3 Attack dice (without modifiers) against 3 x 5 Defense dice (with possible Focus modification) at Range 3.

When Player B returns fire he will have the same number of dices BUT with re rolls and possible Focus (if not used for defense roll) while player A doesn't have any modifiers. And even if player B's ships were somehow all killed at the first barrage from A they would still get to shoot back at A (simultaneous attacks rule)

So that's one example of how it can be better to not have init. Positioning, boosting/barrel rolls are other incidents/options

This makes total sense. And I had forgotten about PS pilots shooting each other both get the opportunity to attack. In my friendly games, I'm always maxed at 100 and playing Rebels, so I never win initiative. And playing rebels I'm more likely to move lost and shoot first based on avg. PS. It's never been an item of thought, but the above examples answers the question. Now the reverse, why would you want initiative?

In general, not having initiative is a good thing during combat . It only matters for ships of equal PS. Even if one of your ships is destroyed by an enemy of equal PS, it will get the shoot back before it's destroyed. Having more information about the state of the field is always better; so shooting second is, in general, better.

There are only a couple of scenarios where having initiative during combat gives you an advantage. Turr Phennir is one of them, since he can boost/barrel roll out of the arcs.

I always thought that you would WANT initiative during combat, as if you shoot first and take an opponent off the board before he has a chance to shoot back, he is out of luck. The only exception to his would be Fel's Wrath who, even though he may be destroyed, isn't removed from play until the end of the combat round. Am I wrong in this?

If Soontir and Wedge went head to head, and Wedge managed to one-shot Soontir, would Soontir get the chance to fire back before he was removed from play?

In general, not having initiative is a good thing during combat . It only matters for ships of equal PS. Even if one of your ships is destroyed by an enemy of equal PS, it will get the shoot back before it's destroyed. Having more information about the state of the field is always better; so shooting second is, in general, better.

There are only a couple of scenarios where having initiative during combat gives you an advantage. Turr Phennir is one of them, since he can boost/barrel roll out of the arcs.

I always thought that you would WANT initiative during combat, as if you shoot first and take an opponent off the board before he has a chance to shoot back, he is out of luck. The only exception to his would be Fel's Wrath who, even though he may be destroyed, isn't removed from play until the end of the combat round. Am I wrong in this?

If Soontir and Wedge went head to head, and Wedge managed to one-shot Soontir, would Soontir get the chance to fire back before he was removed from play?

Yes, due to the simultaneous fire rule, meaning the ships are firing at the same time. The turnbased nature is required for the simulation. All ships with the Same Pilot skill get to attack before they are destroyed. Wedge destroys Soontir, but Soontir is allowed to attack before he is removed. Therefore, he could also kill Wedge before he is removed.

In general, not having initiative is a good thing during combat . It only matters for ships of equal PS. Even if one of your ships is destroyed by an enemy of equal PS, it will get the shoot back before it's destroyed. Having more information about the state of the field is always better; so shooting second is, in general, better.

There are only a couple of scenarios where having initiative during combat gives you an advantage. Turr Phennir is one of them, since he can boost/barrel roll out of the arcs.

I always thought that you would WANT initiative during combat, as if you shoot first and take an opponent off the board before he has a chance to shoot back, he is out of luck. The only exception to his would be Fel's Wrath who, even though he may be destroyed, isn't removed from play until the end of the combat round. Am I wrong in this?

If Soontir and Wedge went head to head, and Wedge managed to one-shot Soontir, would Soontir get the chance to fire back before he was removed from play?

Yes. There is a simultaneous attack rule so that all equally-skilled pilots get to shoot even if they would be destroyed.

You want initiative in situations when you are blocking to disrupt enemy forces and control their placement/actions. Naturally, shooting first is ALWAYS beneficial and it's more critical to some lists than others, usually ones that are challenged to avoid arcs and have to rely on defense dice or ship health for survival. Being able to shoot first and kill enemies is their defense.

There is no one answer on whether you want initiative or not. It depends on your squad and playstyle.

Do not forget that by shooting first, you might inflict critical hits that affect the enemy before they fire, even if they are the same PS. A Y-wing could pull a Munitions Failure that destroys its ion cannon turret, there is the ever bothersome Blinded Pilot, etc.

Hi y'all. Again new player trying to figure all this out. The recent rule change/clarification regarding initiative has alot of people clamoring to give it away. I can't seem to figure out why you would not want initiative. My fleet and play time are limited so there might be an obvious answer. And once you give it away, the enemy gets to fire his equal PS first correct? So wedge vs. fel. The player with initiative shoots first, right? Thanks.

I can't understand why you would want it. Being able react to the moves of pilots with the same skill (from not having initiative) is far more valuable than the small number of situational gimmicks having it grants.

No Initiative, can react to the same pilot skill's moves every single round.

Initiative lets you crit when firing at a ship with equal pilot skill before they shoot back (in all my games this has never happened) and you can do a nifty trick with Turr Phennir every now and then, but if you went second you could avoid putting him in that arc in the first place. Apart from those rare situational things, initiative is only good if you're playing the blocking game (fly a ship into their path so they get no action).

This is why FFG changed the rules from Lowest Points has Initiative to Lowest Points Chooses. They realised how bad initiative is the vast majority of the time.

Uh, no, they changed it so that people who want initiative and those who do not are on equal footing. They can both underbuild in an attempt to get what they want. There are plenty of reasons to want initiative. Action denial via blocking is very powerful.

As others have said, it's very squad dependent. It's also preference dependent.

During activation, with it, you can move first, which you can use to block your opponent so he CAN'T maneuver away with boosts/barrel rolls. This tactic allows you to get a shot at an otherwise slippery ship. It's also useful to just deny F+E+TL actions, so it works well against bombers too. You can also better predict where to go so you don't get action denied since the board isn't changing before you move.

Without it, you can typically go where your opponent was, knowing that it's likely to be vacant, and you can then use your actions to get out of arc / get the enemy in arc. This is useful for both ships that can move as an action, and for ships on others tails (it's next to impossible to get R1 shots on someone moving after you if you're chasing them, but rather easy if he moves first). Even for ships that can't take movement actions, it's useful to know whether to F/E/TL... (An X wing with no one shooting at him would probably take a TL... a TIE in the middle of 3 ships will likely take an E... Ships without knowing where everyone will be will likely take F).

During combat, if you shoot first, you can inflict crits such as blinded pilot, munitions failure, or -1 attack (whatever it's called). You can also kill off buffs so the return fire does not get it (swarm vs swarm, the first init swarm can utilize their Howlrunner to blow up the other team's HR before the academies shoot back... now without HR rerolls, similar thing with Jax).

Shooting second though you know that you're safe to spend your F on attack. You also know who's already spent their token, so you can target the weak link. You also know which of your ships are destroyed so you can target the ship that'll benefit the least from the disappearance of your ship (for example, if the ship of yours that was destroyed was going to prevent someone from K turning behind you, you might want to target that ship so you can kill it before it gets behind you).

So, there are advantages, both real and perceived for both having and not having init. I personally like it with most of my squads, but I do not rely on having it on any of my squads, and it's extremely useful to not have it against alpha strikes

If you do not have initiative:

• You place the 2nd, 4th, and 6th asteroids, which meaningfully dictate the shape of the field, if not its position
• You are more easily able to target lock ships of your pilot skill
• You are more easily able to Bomb ships of your pilot skill
• You are more easily able to use mobility modifiers (Boost, Barrel-Roll, Navigator, et c.) against ships of your pilot skill
• You theoretically have slightly more points in your squad

If you have initiative:

• You place the 1st, 3rd, and 5th asteroids, meaningfully dictating the position of the field, if not its shape
• You are more easily able to block ships of your pilot skill
• You are more easily able to perform actions in a collision scenario
• You are more easily able to destroy a "buffing" ship before ships of your pilot skill attack (e.g. If your ships kill Howlrunner, theirs do not get the Howlrunner bonus, even though the ships attack "simultaneously").
• You determine the order of operations when facing multiple effects that occur simultaneously (e.g. R2-D2 colliding with a ship with Anti-Pursuit Lasers)
• You gain a modified win in the event of a tie

There is no one answer on whether you want initiative or not. It depends on your squad and playstyle.

And what your opponent's squad consists of... as you will be aware of that when you choose to take ini or not.

Because my Bomber Squad wants you to move into them. You move closer to me, then i move. Oh look, your in range for a TL now. Awesome. Concussion incoming!

Because my Bomber Squad wants you to move into them. You move closer to me, then i move. Oh look, your in range for a TL now. Awesome. Concussion incoming!

Oh, you moved past me. Awesome. Bombs incoming!

Because my Bomber Squad wants you to move into them. You move closer to me, then i move. Oh look, your in range for a TL now. Awesome. Concussion incoming!

Oh, you moved past me. Awesome. Bombs incoming!

Yup that too!