So I've been looking to start running EotE for about a year or so now, and it's finally about to happen. Thing is I have a player who wants to play a jawa. Doing some searches, both me and him keep finding this PDF titled "Unofficial Races Menagerie", and some searches also show some of you guys mentioning it in threads, though very briefly.

Just glancing over it, it all seems cool, but this is also coming from a GM with absolutely 0 experience with the system at all. Is it generally well-received amongst this community? Any races in it you would dissallow due to balance reasons, way they're statted up?

Just wondering before I hop into this and it get out of hand in a system I know nothing about. I mean, partially saying "Stick to the books we own" seems easy enough, but I've talked to some SW fans who even have stated they won't even touch Edge until there's some kind of alien anthology. Which, coming from a D&D background I don't actually understand, because D&D never really had a "Super Races Book" in basically any edition, and the core races get played all the time. That being said, I don't know how jawas didn't make it into the Core Rulebook anyways though.

So thoughts? Generally no problems with the PDF?

No, I would say the PDF is very reasonable. They've been a bit off on some as the races have come out officially, but all in all it's a really good source to be used by someone who wants to use an unrepresented race in the game. Nothing unbalanced at all and a nice quality piece of work as well I think.

I've been fairly impressed by most of the contents actually and wouldn't have a problem with them.

The Menagerie species are very balanced and make sense, even if they might not match up perfectly with "official" species when they later become available. I have a Cathar and a Zeltron in my group and both are balanced perfectly with the rest of the group.

The Menagerie is also the ONLY unofficial source that's included with my character generator. That tells you a bit about what high regard I hold it in Dono and Co. did a great job on it.

I'll echo what others are saying. If my players wanted to play something from the USM I would let them, though I would ask them how they would want to handle the possibility of an official writeup happening in the future.

One of the primary writers Donovan Morningfire is a very active member of these boards as well as the d20Radio forums, so it's likely he'll pop in this thread.

You might want to tell your players that it is unlikely that FFG will put out an anthology of official species for a number of reasons. The main reason being that species sell books. I'll be proof of that.

i have someone playing a jawa.

the menagerie's version is good, though we did add one ability - "Disgusting Creature" (Add 1 Setback die to all social interaction checks, add 1 Bonus die when dealing with Jawas).

it's a fun species.

The people you need to watch out for are those who want to create rules for and use a Predator.

On one of my "crazy ideas" days I contemplated having an Alien vs Predator battle when a smuggler delivered a cargo of "eggs" to a Rebel base. Little did he realize that the Rebel sympathizer who hired his services was an agent of the Empire in disguise, with a surgical scar on his chest.

Hadn't worked out where the Predators come into this, but the Predators would be PC's.

So "unnofficial" it isn't even canon

I've put alot of effort into trying to figure out the formula used to balance out the various species/vehichles/equipment and talents in this and other role playing games. It is obvious in most situations that a significant number of hours of development have been spent, by the game designers, in an effort to "balance" the choices a player has available to them.

Something I have determined along the way is that those choices dont need to be balanced. The very nature of a RPG is that the players are playing different characters. The fundamental truth of this is often a base requirement to surmount the variety of challenges presented by the Game Master. Because the challenges are not always resolved in the same way, be that combat, dialogue, of test of skill/knowledge ect., the variation of characters will result in disparity of "Balance".

Take two characters that are identical in every way except that one placed 4 ranks in Brawl and 3 in Melee, whereas the other put 3 in Brawl and 4 in Melee. Empirically they are "balanced" yet in a situation where the characters are using vibroswords to kill Gundarks the one with the more ranks in Melee is better. These characters are only balanced if the GM presents another challenge to the characters where having more skill with brawl will be a determining factor. A non-lethal bar fight comes to mind.

All of this is simply my way of telling you that the responsibility of "balance" is not exclusive to the game designers. You, as the GM, are the real source of balance in the game. The only time one of your players playing a Jawa will be problematic is when you repeatedly present the group with situations where being a Jawa is beneficial and the other players, who are not Jawas, get jealous.

Well that's my two credits anyway.

Chiming in with my own voice to say that, as a GM of the system myself, the Unofficial Species Menagerie appears very balanced overall.

As for direct experience, in the game I'm running, one of my players is playing a Neimoidian PC, and there haven't been any balance issues there.

I've put alot of effort into trying to figure out the formula used to balance out the various species/vehichles/equipment and talents in this and other role playing games. It is obvious in most situations that a significant number of hours of development have been spent, by the game designers, in an effort to "balance" the choices a player has available to them.

Something I have determined along the way is that those choices dont need to be balanced. The very nature of a RPG is that the players are playing different characters. The fundamental truth of this is often a base requirement to surmount the variety of challenges presented by the Game Master. Because the challenges are not always resolved in the same way, be that combat, dialogue, of test of skill/knowledge ect., the variation of characters will result in disparity of "Balance".

Take two characters that are identical in every way except that one placed 4 ranks in Brawl and 3 in Melee, whereas the other put 3 in Brawl and 4 in Melee. Empirically they are "balanced" yet in a situation where the characters are using vibroswords to kill Gundarks the one with the more ranks in Melee is better. These characters are only balanced if the GM presents another challenge to the characters where having more skill with brawl will be a determining factor. A non-lethal bar fight comes to mind.

All of this is simply my way of telling you that the responsibility of "balance" is not exclusive to the game designers. You, as the GM, are the real source of balance in the game. The only time one of your players playing a Jawa will be problematic is when you repeatedly present the group with situations where being a Jawa is beneficial and the other players, who are not Jawas, get jealous.

Well that's my two credits anyway.

Your description of being unbalanced is literally what balance actually is. The work that is done to balance the game is to make sure that you can't have something that's powerful across the board or, similarly, really powerful at one or two things while still being passable at everything else.

The entire point of asymmetric races is to have situations where a certain race/class combination really shines, but without having it be able to shine all the time. That is balance.

Yes, of course as a GM you need to make sure that you highlight all of your player's character's abilities throughout the adventure, but that has nothing to do with balance. Where balance comes in is where a player is able to, singlehandedly, overcome many/most/all challenges you throw at the party.

Your description of being unbalanced is literally what balance actually is. The work that is done to balance the game is to make sure that you can't have something that's powerful across the board or, similarly, really powerful at one or two things while still being passable at everything else.

The entire point of asymmetric races is to have situations where a certain race/class combination really shines, but without having it be able to shine all the time. That is balance.

Yes, of course as a GM you need to make sure that you highlight all of your player's character's abilities throughout the adventure, but that has nothing to do with balance. Where balance comes in is where a player is able to, singlehandedly, overcome many/most/all challenges you throw at the party.

You are right. My example is intended to show exactly that. The singular difference between the two characters is meant to highlight the idea that one race being stronger than another is a mater of situation only. So even if the Jawa is not made to the exact formula that the official races are made with it will not break the game.

The balance that a GM is responsible for is coming up with enough variety of encounters that the players all have fun.

I feel like we are probably in agreement on the issue but maybe not communicating accurately. Perhaps I should point out that I also use the resource being discussed and have a very cool Dug Explorer from it. And one of my players has a Nautolan Bounty Hunter.

Just to toss in my two credits:

This is a very well done, very balanced species collection. They were designed with the Core Book in mind, so we didn't see species with a 4 or two characteristics at 3. That said, some of them may need to be tweaked after seeing how the newer ones are done (i.e. my group requested to restat that Dashade after seeing Dangerous Covenants, and a few other species were redone by our table after playing in a beta).

My table currently consists of a Human Commando, Twi'lek Pilot, Dashade Medic, Zeltron Politico, and a Jawa Mechanic. The group is actually very well balanced, and no one is really better than anyone else at the get-go; sure, the Jawa is a Mechanic whiz, but the Dashade player realized that the Human approach would have only been slightly better for his overall concept.

I'm sad to say the group will be collapsing soon due to my moving (yay GM leaving!) and the inability of my group to stay focused when they join in online (last attempt had someone playing an MMO and another trawling on Facebook instead of paying attention to what was happening in combat), but the resource and our tweaks will be used by the players if they continue on with the game (as they are expecting to) and by my new group.

As the guy who originally pitched the Duros and Zeltron in the first version of the Menagerie, I can tell you Dono and the rest of the crew really worked hard to make sure player characters would reflect the material they originated from without unbalancing the game. The Zetron went through two or three different interations, and I think the final version is pretty darn good. Dono had some fantastic ideas which made their way to the final version. I really love the book and we use it regulary in our group.

Yancy

First off, nice to know that the Unofficial Species Menagerie is still appreciated and useful for GMs and players alike.

Cyril and I generally preferred to err on the side of caution. Partly due to only having the EotE Beta to work from at the time most of these were written up, we didn't want to take too many risks. Cyril opted to stick a bit closer to Saga Edition than I might have done in a couple cases, but overall we both had the mantra of "keep this race from being a must-play species." Personally, I think the one race I did mess up was the Chiss being a bit too good as I'd written them, but they're kind of a moot point now that they've gotten an official write-up. There's also other species that I gave a +2 bonus to Wound Threshold but no corresponding penalty to Strain Threshold, which so far seems to be the rule in terms of the official species, which makes a few of those a bit more powerful than they probably should be.

There was also the issue of us not wanting to go too crazy in terms of stats, such as doing things like giving a species a Characteristic array of 1/1/2/2/3/3 as that didn't have a precedent until Enter the Unknown gave us the Toydarians. FFG on the other had has the benefit of being the ones to produce the official write-ups, so they're probably a lot more willing to go outside the norm than a couple of average joes would. That and I'm pretty sure that we'd have gotten blasted if we'd dared to do anything as radical

There's been some work on doing tweaks and additions, but real life concerns have caused that to stall as free time available for Cyril and myself is rather limited at the moment.

I'd say FFG has definitely a step beyond how you guys laid things out. The Klatooinians really stepped it up a notch in my eyes. You guys when and if you get the chance should make a pass through and push the envelope a little on the designs. Nothing to OP but there is room to stretch a bit now for sure.

Awesome, thanks for all the input everybody, and surprised to actually hear from the creator himself. lol. Glad to hear it's all well-rounded and socially acceptable and whatnot, and glad to see such quick replies as well. Didn't imagine the Edge Forums moved that quickly or were this popular.

So basically just use the PDF and if any of the species get official write-ups just use the officials in place?

Yup, that's what our group has been doing.

Yancy

So basically just use the PDF and if any of the species get official write-ups just use the officials in place?

Well unless you like the homebrew better, of course.

I'd say FFG has definitely a step beyond how you guys laid things out. The Klatooinians really stepped it up a notch in my eyes. You guys when and if you get the chance should make a pass through and push the envelope a little on the designs. Nothing to OP but there is room to stretch a bit now for sure.

Problem was we tried that in a few instances before compiling the first document, and got hit with significant backlash because we weren't "following FFG's design rules!" or "you f'd up species X when they should have this instead!"

And frankly, I don't entirely agree with how FFG did some of their species, the Dangerous Covanent ones being the top of the list (I still don't see a need for three separate Aqualish sub-species and think Klatoonians border on being too good as written).

I'll change what I honestly think needs changing (which frankly isn't all that much on my end), Cyril will make what changes he feels needs to be made, and that'll be it. Given the majority of these species are going to be obsolete as FFG produces more sourcebooks, there's really not much impetus (on my part at least) to revamp every single species.

So basically just use the PDF and if any of the species get official write-ups just use the officials in place?

Well unless you like the homebrew better, of course.

Yeah, just use whichever version your group is happiest with. I know some GMs prefer to stick with official material in all cases, but if your group is happier with the USM version, then stick with that. Or, if you've been using the USM version and would prefer not to totally re-write a character that's been in play for several adventures, that's cool too.

I'd say FFG has definitely a step beyond how you guys laid things out. The Klatooinians really stepped it up a notch in my eyes. You guys when and if you get the chance should make a pass through and push the envelope a little on the designs. Nothing to OP but there is room to stretch a bit now for sure.

Problem was we tried that in a few instances before compiling the first document, and got hit with significant backlash because we weren't "following FFG's design rules!" or "you f'd up species X when they should have this instead!"

And frankly, I don't entirely agree with how FFG did some of their species, the Dangerous Covanent ones being the top of the list (I still don't see a need for three separate Aqualish sub-species and think Klatoonians border on being too good as written).

I'll change what I honestly think needs changing (which frankly isn't all that much on my end), Cyril will make what changes he feels needs to be made, and that'll be it. Given the majority of these species are going to be obsolete as FFG produces more sourcebooks, there's really not much impetus (on my part at least) to revamp every single species.

Backlash is a given, never gonna make this crowd completely happy that's for sure.

I don't really feel the need for sub species either and I can only guess the devs had competing ideas they just liked and wanted to include for a single species. I don't mind Klatooinians as written because I just measure all races against Humans. That's kind of why I liked Klatooinians as written, because they offer a real mechanical alternative to humans. I also think because of them you guys would certainly be justified in letting your hair down so to speak in your designs and could do a little more of what you like.

Mechanically, I see no problems with your player playing a USM Jawa. I will warn you though that your universe could get a little funky when Jawas leave Tatooine.

I will warn you though that your universe could get a little funky when Jawas leave Tatooine.

I"m not sure why this would be the case. Jawas are intregrated quite nicely on the planet Raxa prime in the Beyond the Rim adventure. I could easily see them running around the Star Wars universe. They may not be common but other than humans is there any race that is common?

The Menagerie has made an excellent addition to the collection thus far. Well executed and elegant. Kudos all around.

One question, though. It is currently referred to as the Final Revision of the species menagerie. Does that mean there are no plans for adding additional species into the mix, or is that simply referring to the final revision for the 3.0 selection?

I don't really feel the need for sub species either and I can only guess the devs had competing ideas they just liked and wanted to include for a single species. I don't mind Klatooinians as written because I just measure all races against Humans. That's kind of why I liked Klatooinians as written, because they offer a real mechanical alternative to humans.

Agreed I liked the Klatooinians, and I kind of liked the Weequays as well (though I'm somewhat partial to them because of Hondo... ). I really don't like most of the other races as FFG did them, they are far too limited, I don't feel their special abilities are worth nearly what the two free non-career skill ranks are worth. I'd never take a Corellian either, if I wanted a pilot that good I'd just take a human and wait for the first 15XP. Maybe if your entire campaign took place under water you'd want an aquatic species, but stuff like that should be just a slight contextual allowance that doesn't impact chargen costs.

I get why humans get these two skills, they're supposed to be the most adaptable species. Fine, then other species should start with one skill rank in a chosen subset of skills that reflects their species' core focus, plus one free non-career. Simple, and more balanced IMHO.