B-Rad said:

Feel free to send me a PM at any point, sir (if i haven't friended you yet, go ahead-I'm just on my way out).

dshaffer said:

Notice how the thread drifted from : "Wah Spike is too good." to "Wah, can we PLEASE have something else for Air because Spike is boring as hell?"

It's a new direction. One that is actually interesting to discuss.

Viewtiful_Joe said:

You're absolutely spot-on. IIRC, the only two cards released that directly stop Feline Spike are two situational cards: one from Yi Shan (an attack which must be face-up in the momentum) and a Rashotep foundation that only has the effect of invalidating keywords, and nothing more.

When I had Air Talim built, every opponent I faced ate printed damage or more because her attacks are just too fast! However, it took her generally a large amount of turns to overcome the opponent, and if I didn't have any Chinese Boxings (which were constantly Chinese Box'd, as well), Battle Prowess made the games stall forever.

I then eliminated a lot of Talim's attacks and gave her Felines, and all of a sudden I was smashing opponents regardless of their backfield.

Case-in-point: Feline wins games every time it hits the table when played by an otherwise intelligent player. Those who think it isn't the new CSS are seriously deranged. Heck, CSS required you blow up your board, something the then-popular Seal of Cessation could've stopped, yet CSS got the ban. Feline creates multiples that can't even be Ichi no Tachi'd.

It's like you said, why bother running strings of attacks, ESPECIALLY with Rejection, Criminal Past, Battle Prowess, etc running amock, when I could just run Feline and maybe some stuff like Ichi no Tachi and back it up with a wall of control? Unlike Hanzo Kick, which fell immensely to Tag Along, Undercover Agent, TOS, etc etc etc, Feline has very few true counters, most of which are covered by Chinese Boxing, Chester's Backing, Torn Hero, Undercover Agent, etc.

Now, I'm betting a lot of people have probably mentioned John Herr's performance, and existence of...I think 14, 16 attacks or so? I haven't read any other threads.

The thing is, John Herr was not only running Evil, but he was running a character that can seriously tutor the CRAP out of cards using Visions of Destiny. Whether you guys want to admit it or not, Evil is STILL top tier, and will likely never lose its place for so long as it gets these extremely amazing cards with universal effects that warrant running. His deck was suited for running more attacks than just Feline, and I get the feeling he usually took 1 to 2 turns of attacks to kill.

MarcoPulleaux said:

The game will ALWAYS have an attack like this. if not spike then Tiger upper or something. Its not impossible on some symbols to turn any one attack into a OTK. Being a one hit attack win, in and of itself is not a bad thing. For all its worth Fury of the Ancestors has more potential simpul because of its interaction with the shadowar boxtopper and specic characters that Fspike does at times. Theres plenty of OTK attacks that you arent complaining about.

Spike is fine, its an eggs in one basket 1 check, i really dont mind the thought of you losing to your own deck when i dont have to take that risk at this point. Maybe air didnt get one better attack than spike in the new set, but maybe it got a whole suite of new cards to support not using spike as a kill anymore.

@Moves that are comparable to FSpike on Air: Shredding Vibrato is legit, although certainly much better on Death (which has a bigger list of characters and more importantly damage pumps). 4/3 +2H are pretty good stats for a move in the first place, when it's a move that hits like three MAC trucks shot out of a railgun - even better.

Mark it down for two on agreements with Shinji. =P.

Like I said earlier, at this point I'd rather have Evil remain at the top than see Spike win it all. There's nothing wrong with having to attack over more than one turn, and it's a good thing to have.

"The game will ALWAYS have an attack like this. if not spike then Tiger upper or something. Its not impossible on some symbols to turn any one attack into a OTK. Being a one hit attack win, in and of itself is not a bad thing. For all its worth Fury of the Ancestors has more potential simpul because of its interaction with the shadowar boxtopper and specic characters that Fspike does at times. Theres plenty of OTK attacks that you arent complaining about."

I tried to edit my above post, but it won't be fixed. Hope it doesn't bother anybody >_>...

Protoaddict said:

So you're saying a card that is only situationally comparable, and even then only when running certain characters, is a reason to run something other than Spike? C'mon.

I hate that I agree with Shinji xD

I have a Chun Li deck that doesnt run Spikes. Though mostly cos i dont own any. There are a few simple ways of stopping spike. Cards like Healer, Holding Ground and Mysterious Stance are all extremely anti spike (although mysterious stance is just gay lol). Also if you look at it this way. A competitive spike deck will be running a **** load of 6's, combined with the fact that it will probably be built on air, there is next to no speed boost, which means that you can just block them. I know if its played in your turn thats a wasted turn. But if you can take a couple of hits, youre probably guarenteeing that your opponent cant block any more of your attacks. Another couple of ways to deal with a spike, are Spike itself (play it as a reversal to theirs and its rather funny), or if you want to do something really strange, use collecting data. Which is just funny lol.

Homme Chapeau said:

not really. It is more of the same. People trying to point out better attacks than Feline to run. People too bull-headed saying "I can't hear you! Feline is better."

After PoTM. I do believe feline is very strong but jank. I got killed by feline alot at the tournament(but my opponents got screwed more than I did), however I was more mad at everyone and their mom running Mentorings.

better attacks than Spike:

Shredding Vibrato

Execution Techniques- I had Hata worried when I was able to check each one with no foundations in play(turn 5..he was destroying my foundations)...missed the CC on 3rd rite by 1.

Menuett Dance.

Melachonic Mercurius- so much better than spike.

Homme Chapeau said:

kimano said:

THIS THIS THIS 100 TIME THIS. Maybe everyone cant see it because everyone is so obsessed with using FSpike, but this is the case I hear out of more peoples mouths than anything, typically speaking this is also how my games go.

For every game against a spike deck I have lost because of spike, I have won at least 2 times as many because my opponent checked a spike at a critical point or they couldn't get one into their hand because they were not running enough attacks. Air has plenty of options now, be them character specific or not, that are viable kills that will not swing the game so drastically south for you should you check them.

I'm willing to go as far as saying that airs best attack is not spike at all and has not been for some time, it's best attack is Ispin, which when utilized properly is in fact a kill card.

kimano said:

All of those above attacks are brilliant yes, but the point is that they still aren't as powerful as Feline Spike without backup (that Feline Spike could also recieve). It merely takes sheer mathematics to work it out.

Vibrato is only really good with a select few characters, and most of them are Death characters rather than Air characters. And even if you are running it off Air, you need to have Death to make the most of it.

Running the Execution Techniques triples the number of attacks you'd be running, and therefore the no. of >3CC's, and even then Feline Spike's total damage output is only just underneath Third Rites (24 as opposed to 18 (30 if you include the other two attacks and their effects ALL hitting)).

Menuette Dance is essentially a slightly more fair Feline Spike which doesn'thalf half the keywords and has 4 less total damage than Spike.

Melancholic Mercurius is a cheap Multiple attack that can be slapped out one after another, which does indeed, make it very good, but it takes 2 fully multiplied ones to match the damage of a Feline Spike.

I'll continue and mention Tiger Fury, which takes a hell of a lot longer to kill with than Feline Spike does. It requires you to have a lot of foundations in order to allow it to kill, and it being a single attack means it is a lot easier to counter than a Spike. Fury is more often than not played alongside Feline Spike so that the deck can dominate over both early game and late game without having to run any other attacks in the deck.

The point of the matter is that while all of the above attacks are extremely potent attacks, Feline Spike mathematically overshadows all of them. The 1CC is certainly meant to be what puts a player off playing it, but when you're running 50 - 57 5 CC's, that really isn't much of a matter to argue. Arguments can be made to say that decks can be built around a different attack to Spike, and those arguments would be correct, it is possible to do that, but Feline Spike was clearly not meant to be played at the speed it is played at now. Restricting it to Felicia means that you are forced to play a 6 hander to use it. And if you want to slap it out as early as Felicia decks tend to do, you'd be leaving yourself wide open if you mess it up or if your opponent messes it up for you.

kimano said:

kimano said:

All of those above attacks are brilliant yes, but the point is that they still aren't as powerful as Feline Spike without backup (that Feline Spike could also recieve). It merely takes sheer mathematics to work it out.

Vibrato is only really good with a select few characters, and most of them are Death characters rather than Air characters. And even if you are running it off Air, you need to have Death to make the most of it.

Running the Execution Techniques triples the number of attacks you'd be running, and therefore the no. of >3CC's, and even then Feline Spike's total damage output is only just underneath Third Rites (24 as opposed to 18 (30 if you include the other two attacks and their effects ALL hitting)).

Menuette Dance is essentially a slightly more fair Feline Spike which doesn'thalf half the keywords and has 4 less total damage than Spike.

Melancholic Mercurius is a cheap Multiple attack that can be slapped out one after another, which does indeed, make it very good, but it takes 2 fully multiplied ones to match the damage of a Feline Spike.

I'll continue and mention Tiger Fury, which takes a hell of a lot longer to kill with than Feline Spike does. It requires you to have a lot of foundations in order to allow it to kill, and it being a single attack means it is a lot easier to counter than a Spike. Fury is more often than not played alongside Feline Spike so that the deck can dominate over both early game and late game without having to run any other attacks in the deck.

The point of the matter is that while all of the above attacks are extremely potent attacks, Feline Spike mathematically overshadows all of them. The 1CC is certainly meant to be what puts a player off playing it, but when you're running 50 - 57 5 CC's, that really isn't much of a matter to argue. Arguments can be made to say that decks can be built around a different attack to Spike, and those arguments would be correct, it is possible to do that, but Feline Spike was clearly not meant to be played at the speed it is played at now. Restricting it to Felicia means that you are forced to play a 6 hander to use it. And if you want to slap it out as early as Felicia decks tend to do, you'd be leaving yourself wide open if you mess it up or if your opponent messes it up for you.

Oops, sorry for double post, everyone does it at least once

Viewtiful_Joe said:

So I wont argue that FSpike gives you alot of bang for the buck, and yes its damage output is greater than most of thoes listed attacks. The question is however, is it wasted? Everyone keeps talking about how strong spike is, but I want to argue that in alot of cases that strength wont ever see play because its more than needed. YEs spike does 24 vs 20 damage of minuet dance, but most tourney character cap off at 20 right? So while if on either of them, if one attack is blocked, they probably wont be fatal, its takes more blocks to deal with minuet dance than spike, meaning it will probably more efficently put damage through over the courseof its attacks than spike. Factor in a better control check and a lower difficulty and perhaps you can see where im going with this.

Protoaddict said:

And killing someone on their turn after reversing the first Minuet Dance when they can't block because of the fact they have upwards of 4 cards in their card pool isn't showing it's strength? Maybe playing Chun Li and full out Spiking them turn 2 after they played their second form? Is that showing it's strength? I understand your point Proto, but every card you've thrown out gets beaten by Spike. Remember Air decks run a LOT of six checks (I think my Felcia has over 30), and very few "bad checks" (bad checks being 3 or lower). I have no problems running four 1's, when the majority of my flips are going to be 5+ in a 62 card deck.

It dosent matter how many 6 checks you have in your deck if the first you check is a 1. Your checking a single card, not an average.

F Spike needs 2 momentum to work. Cards that create momentum on air in quantity enough to matter have 3 and 2 difficulty. Obviously your gonna want to get them down sooner rather than later. Meaning if you go first and try to play Makai and Natural leader and roll a spike, you just lost your turn. Likewise rolling a spike will end your first turn on any card past your second. Since rolling a 1 on a spike for 7 means you need 6 foundations, odds are against you to have them out if your playing spike.

A deck that runs 2 or 3 check attacks dosent have this weakness, While they may have to run more attacks, the odds of them failing there opening hand are nothing like a deck with 1s, likewise failing an attack will need less effort to fix on there behalf.

Being able to run less attacks does not make a deck better if rolling that attacks loses you the game.

Protoaddict said:

Here's the problem: Feline Spike is never blocked. I have yet to see an intelligent player put Feline in its card pool unless they knew it'd seal the game. Spikes aren't meant to be blocked. Menuet is good, nobody is denying that. I mean, sharing only 1 symbol, I wouldn't exactly compare them.

Also, Menuet requires 3 momentum, something Feline does easier with 2, and miraculously more damage.

MarcoPulleaux said:

I'm sorry this is stupid. If a spike is never blocked then why does everyone care that it even has the E ability in case someone blocks it with ichy and the like.

Likewise if your putting your opponent into a situation where they are prone to you smashing them like that, why not use ANY OTHER ATTACK MENTIONED that also do fatal damage.

Your wrong, period. I've blocked many spikes in my day, including ones played as reversals.

B-Rad said:

Earth Divide was flat inferior to Tiamat's.

Shoulder Rush was only good as a "finisher" with Tira or after Soul Power was released, and even then, no soul power, it gets blocked 3/4 of the time.

Nobody ran Tiger Genocide in Sagat.

Death Cody builds ran Timmy. Fire and Air builds ran Final D and wished they could just run Timmy instead.

The first Gief with Death was the most recent one (four dot Promo).

Spin Drive is flat inferior to Timmy. Even Dhalsim, the best Spin Drive character, was better off with Timmy because his hand size made it very likely he'd be able to play it and support it fast.

Death decks killed with Timmy, that was basically the standard until Timmy rotated.

Protoaddict said:

Your first statement you should already know the answer to. People care about its E because there are so few counters to Feline currently. While one could say "Ichi no Tachi, Mark of the Beast", and other cards with that static, their static CAN'T stop Feline BECAUSE of the E. I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to block Feline, I'm saying most players don't just throw it out there when their opponent has like, 10 ready foundations and 5 cards in hand. People don't mention Ichi because it blocks Feline; they mention it because it doesn't discard its multiple copies, which is one of Ichi's biggest perks.

Second statement: Because you're trying to tell us using Strings of Attacks, or perhaps Menuet is a better alternative, when the rest of us are telling you your theory is incorrect in real-life practice. Believe me dude, last season I had Air ::Taki:: that ran approximately 14, 15 attacks or so and 3 Challenge the Master. I won matches left and right. But there's no denying my deck would've worked better had I given it Feline Spikes. Same with my current Air Talim. Nobody could block anything between Talim's E and Wind Dance, my attacks generally came at a minimum of 7 speed. However, it took over 3 turns to kill almost every time, and had no true counter to Battle Prowess or Rejection. As soon as I added Feline Spikes, only then did I realize Talim was just a Universal Fighter with less vitality. I understand you're saying there ARE other alternatives, in which case you're correct. But we're trying to tell you they aren't AS GOOD as Spike. No attack right now is as quick to build around and as reliable as spike.

Third: OK, again, I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to block, I'm saying it's IMPROBABLE. Most Felines are run in Air and Water builds, both of which have Chinese Boxing, Chester's Backing, and water has Program Malfunction. Feline also has Stun: 2, a high zone, and 4 printed speed. They're extremely hard to block, and a lot of players use other attacks FIRST, THEN finish with a Feline.

As for the 1 check, that's a bunch of malarky. I understand that, duh, you checking a 1 could intensely shift the flow of battle to the opponent's favor. However, it rarely happens, and is mended by running fewer Spikes. Besides, in the decks I've used it in, I've actually wanted to check a Spike so that I could Free Will/Tag Along it.

I thought we established VERY long ago that the 1 check on Spike did nothing to justify the card. If you handed me two decks, and told me that one of them was a good Air deck with 4 Spikes and, for s**t's and giggles, a few Spinta's in it, then handed me a good Evil deck with 12-14 good attacks in it, I'll probably take the Spike deck and worry later about that 1 check. Lovely how the potential for Spike just let's you play with so much less concern. I'd love to meet a player whose first thought is "Crap, Spike checks a 1, what am I gonna do?!" when they stick that card into their deck.

I also remember we stablished that that E was just wrong.

Fred. The reason why it's never blocked by an Ichi is because that direction is moot. Joy, I block for half damage and...OH WAIT, YOU PLAYED THE E! Seriously-is it really fair that Feline Spike, the highest (and probably lowest-costed to achieve so) damage potential attack in the game can't be hit with the very cards printed to hate on it? Yet, I can let someone work their ass off to get set up to get Fury of the Ancients to a threatening level, or play Menuett Dance, and then throw a multiple-hate block out and lol my way to victory? No, it's not fair. At. All. If someone is dual-symboling and using hacks to push the attack through, I'd be absolutely fine with that, because then it's taking actual effort to get Spike to deal massive damage. With how it is now, I need to pass a 7 minimum, have two momentum, and just activate three enhancements to make Spike potentially deadly. Oh yes, the brick wall E on the card is free and useable by any character, by the way. Nothing wrong with that at all.

When I need to play EXTRA NEGATION ON TOP OF THE HATE I'm already packing to deal with the card...I'm going to be very annoyed. And I don't like to be annoyed. Kinda kills the whole happy-go-lucky part of me. There's a point to the preceeding statement. look at the caps.

I'll put up the 4 midnight launcher's i purchased the other night to say that if Spike didn't have that E, things would be quite less hectic over the card.

God, I wish that such a situation was as simple as "Hold your high and mid blocks." IF ONLY.

I'd comment on the third statement, but it won't come off as being very nice. (The one by Fred, I mean)

Now, of course, none of these statements are meant to be attacks on anyone. Just my feelings. I've got no problem with people having their own opinions on the card. But, if I'm being asked which side of the line I'm standing on about the card, I'll get on the "No" side with the majority.

This argument is stupid, really. The purpose of new sets is to give players new options. There is no doubt that the new sets have given viable options that aren't Feline Spike to people who don't want to run it. Like Fred has already said, you have plenty of other possibiities that don't check a 1 (or even a 2 in some cases) that you now have a lot more flexibility in deck design. I played an air deck a while ago with 4 Spintas and 3 Spikes. Why? Because Spinta was REQUIRED for the control game and Spike was REQUIRED in order to kill. Now that is not the case. Through some alternative deck construction, I can have Spinta be my only check less than 3 by turning that spike into Vibratto. This allows me to drop some of the less useful 0 difficulty foundations for more useful 1 and 2 difficulty foundations.

Will I still be running spike in decks? Most definitely. Is it an auto-include now in every deck whose character shares a symbol with it anymore? No.

At last year's worlds, I made top cuts running an evil Yoshitora with Feline Spike. Now I can run an evil deck that kills with evil cards. At GCC I ran an order Donovan deck with Feline Spike. Now I can run an order deck that kills with order cards.

The original question was "Will all these new attacks really make a difference with people moving away from spike" and the answer is a resounding YES. While I know SOME people will still be clutching onto their Spikes like they are their ex-girlfriend's underwear, SOME people will be moving away from Spike kills and expanding their options. So really, the answer is simple.

I don't care if you are moving away from Spike. I know that I am exploring my non-Spike options and I can guarantee there will be fertile deckbuilding ground in that new, untouched territory.