HolyDragonCloud said:

Unless you make a card that is equally as good. Then you run both. Except the way UFS works, it generally means that you weaken your deck by running both, even if you dilute the bad checks. I just wish Spike became less of a staple. Then again, people will stop splashing the goddamn thing everywhere so I guess that's a win. Still nothing that replaces it in Air though. Nothing that even comes close to that, too.

And it's really freaking sad when I have a better lifetime tournament finish than you. ;p

Wilding said:

Apparently 24 damage after a Stun: 2 and played after your opponent's card pool is most likely full isn't a win condition. Also to the people that are all LOL ITS A 1 CHECK, it'd be banned by now if it wasn't.

Also, Air and/or Good had One-Armed Maneuvers, Penetrating Lunge, Hop, Strike Heads, Air Backbreaker, Rolling Storm, Criminal Uppercut, Bo Rush, Void Nova, Ohicho Throw, Witch Hunt, Special Forces Training, Flowing Gale Hook, Mark of the Beast (that better come back soon), Undertow, Galford's many many loop decks, Reverse Waterfall...

I still contend that it is not that great on air. I dont think we have had enough play with the new set to determine this yet to be blunt, but i mean name 10 air characters that see tourney play and ill bet a good 4-5 of them have character only stuff that works as well or better than spike. And sicne ari has card pool clearing cards now, maybe spike isnt the best attack to run, maybe you want to clear your CP.

Spike is still Air's best kill. But the other 2 symbols have gotten a lot more to play around with so I'm "okay" with spike.

It's still 24 damage for the cost of 2 momentum, it's still anti-anti-mulitple hate blocks, it still has more keywords then it should, but then again, we've had answers to it for a while, reducing it's mulitples to 0 damage, negating it's enhance, negating it's keyword abilities (I have a playset of Karin and her UR attack for a reason), ending the combat phase.

so with all these new spangly attacks, will we see the Olexa's, Chun-Li's, and Felicia decks of the world change their attacks? probably not, but at least off of other symbols we'll see a lot of new things. And Air/Order may always be hot, but the serious powerhouses that Death/Evil/Fire are bringing out are gonna be an interesting twist in the meta.

I think Sonic Boom EXTRA is a good kill card.

Difference is, it's not the Easy Button that Spike is. It requires work and more than 2 momentum.

As for the 7 diff 1 check thing, I suppose Nine Lives, LotM, Chesters, Blinding Rage, Soul of Ling Sheng Su, Return to Southtown, Olcadan's Mentoring and Infected can't be played in the same deck as Spike...

This new breed of death evil fire agro decks wont be able to rely upon one attack to win either. Meaning they will have to run more 3 checks. While spike is a one check, you can run less attacks and bring up your ccs overall.

Protoaddict said:

Andrew Olexa

Chun Li (Why not run both that and Hokyo Sen?)

Felicia

Hanzo

Mignon

Remy (arguably Rising Rage Flash... Arguably)

Tira

Vega

Ok I can't name 10 namely cause Air didn't have 10 real tournament worthy characters before the new sets came out. So which of those toons have character only cards better than Feline Spike?

guitalex2008 said:

I know a guy who's going the Sonic Boom EXTRA route. Only 1 non 3CC attack in the deck, and it'll be probably Hallowed Slug of the Heavenly Conqueror. His momentum gen is over 9000 though so he can afford it.

Remy (arguably Rising Rage Flash... Arguably)

Won't work. It requires another attack in the card pool, and at the same time it's really not good enough for this. It's really more of a finisher on top of a finisher. For example, pass the Spike for 7, then this for another 7.

If a Chunners deck isn't running both, and the excuse isn't "I don't have access to X or Y," that Chunners deck is pretty darn unorthodox. I'm quite sure Macek runs both in his deck, possibly as his only attacks (couldn't tell you what else there is, I can tell you with 100% certainty that he runs Spike).

Sonic Boom EXTRA is such a nice card. Overshadowed, but nice.

HolyDragonCloud said:

It's really the kind of card you run if you don't like 2 or less CCs.

HolyDragonCloud said:

What is this talk of staples -__-

UFS does not have staples. A staple would mean that EVERY deck would run it. Yeah seeing as not every character has spike symbols I would say that it is not staple or anywhere near it.

Sol Badguy said:

Maybe not, but 99% of the decks that can run Spike, do run Spike.

Sol Badguy said:

A staple is the following : If you can run it, you run it. Trade Your Passion For Glory was a staple - you could run it, then you did. Same with Spike, if you can run it, it's generally better that you do so.

Homme Chapeau said:

No that is a staple f or that resource . Not just in General. Staples are cards that everyone can and does use(See Owl Face). Jon Herr had a spike symbol but I didn't see him running any. He "could" but didn't and beat decks that did. He didn't need it even though he can run it. How does a Hilde Deck benefit from running spike? She is much better off with Lynx Tail for the T2 Kill. There are many other instances I could go off of but that list would be too long.

Sol Badguy said:

And yet it is still a staple, you say so yourself. Congratulations!

Now i have a headache from all this mumbo jumbo. >.<

B-Rad said:

Chun Li - usually runs 4 of one and something like ISpin. Having played masics Chunners before i know for a fact hes lost to rollign a spike, and that the reason he initally had spikes in was because he didnt own the Hoyoko - sens

Hanzo - I have NEVER seen him run spike. Its counter to his ability and to best win condition, forward kicking.

Remy - Yes he cant just run RRF, but it also means he dosent need to run 2s. I would contend its a fair trade, less explosive, more consistent.

Tira - Tira has like 9 billion kill cards now including minuet dance and Shredding Vibrato. Not only that but her theme is discard from the card pool which is counter to spike

There 50% of your list had better kills on Air. Ill list more

Zi Mei - Ancestors Fury lets her throw all most as much damage as spike but over more attacks making blockign harder.

Temujin (promo) - He can throw meloncholic for 30, I spin for 10, Evil illusion slam for 8. All of these are better control, easier check than spike (one being a throw). These are attacks he can topdeck without commiting a foundation to play, and he will typically have more foudnations than a player playing spike because he cant roll a 1 turn one.

I think people here have become so used to losing from checking a spike that they have forgotten what its like to not lose the game from checking an attack. There is a WORLD of different between running 3 checks and 1 checks, and truth be told i would sooner run 10 threes than i ever would 4 ones.

HolyDragonCloud said:

YES.

Protoaddict said:

RRF isn't a kill in and of itself, SRRF is one, and that runs a 2. And not running SRRF in a Remy deck is kind of gimping yourself.

vega has scarlett terror. pain in the ass stupid lame ass attack that wins regionals grumble grumble .........

Protoaddict said:

temujin is made for spike. his e is perfect with spike.

I honestly am going to have to agree with the "you don't need spike to win" crowd. I think we can take a good look at the POTM tournament and realize this. Jon Herr who did win a regional with spike running donovan as I remember completely ditched that deck for the tourny. He played something like 14-16 attacks which was practically unheard of as of late. Jon is a pro player, and already has shown everyone you don't need defender or spike to win. However, it does not discount their playability or strength in the current state of the game.

Spike is a good attack, and I don't see anyone really arguing that point. This thread however, was originally just wanting some reassurance that spike and defender are not the end all be all. Let's face it they aren't. No matter what examples Fred, myself, or anyone else throws out for that matter won't be enough for some, but the truth of the matter is Spike is not the only kill condition and for that matter neither is defender.

I personally like to run midnight launcher myself. All around great attack, with protection from rejection built in. Better suits my playstyle honestly...and I was really happy to get a playset so quick. I would love to run Menuette Dance in a Tira deck (but only have 2 atm dag nabbit!). Combined with Always in Motion mmmmm hotsauce. Fred did toss out some neat ideas and I especially like the Melancholic Mercurius one with promo Temujin. Especially with professional soldier to rig what damage pump you will get.

It does have alot to deal with each person's personal preference and playstyle. I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket myself and to me that what spike really does. It is that good that it may be all you need to ko your opponent, but come one seal of cessation, a pair of healers, flight or fight, holding ground, no mems, etc etc it can be picked appart. And I fully admit their are counters to counters to counters, but that doesn't make me any more confident in the attack and relying so heavily on it. Defender is much the same way...it is way to easy to throw a monkey wrench in the whole scheme.

Except that this is not disputed. Nobody is disputing that you MUST Spike for the win. I'm just disheartened by the lack of choices aside from Spike in most Air decks.

So far, few have given me good alternatives. And for the most part I can end that with "...but I can run Spike and save myself the trouble."

Homme Chapeau said:

And there-in lies all our problems.

I kinda like Spinta, Tiger Fury, SRRF, Sonic Boom Extra, menuette dance, the execution rites all add up to basically become a spike if played together. I know it is not as simple as playing just one card, but heck there are other viable options out there. Besides doesn't it get boring just playing spike again...and again...and again?

Hatman I definatly get what you are saying tho that for air there isn't as crazy a finisher/kill card like spike is all wrapped into one neat little orange package....

Then again I'm glad there isn't lol