HolyDragonCloud said:

Set 13 better have something on-par but not as "necessary" as Spike is. As much as I'd love to ditch Spike in my Air deck, I just can't.

Homme Chapeau said:

And there in lies the entire problem with UFS. Let's just wait till next set for something...

Protoaddict said:

Chun Li- Every single Chun Li deck I've ever seen ever constructed/put on forums/talked about runs both Feline Spike and Hokyo Sen. Why wouldn't you? Hokyo Sen on it's own can't kill someone (unless they're Leona).

Hanzo- You're right he doesn't. But origionally it was asked of me to list 10 tourney worthy Air characters that could run Spike but have some character only better card.

Remy- SRRS requires you to commit foundations for it's ability doesn't it? Why would I wanna do that when I just burn two momentum to do MORE damage that all that with Spike?

Tira- Yeah Tira has the Shredding Vibrator, I'll give her that.

Zi Mei- Why would you run her over the promo? I will challenge anyone to top 8 a tourney with her, or even top 16.

Promo Temujin: His ability SCREAMS Feline Spike. Mercurous is nice and all, but which would you rather have? 3 on average 8-9 damage attacks, or 3 on average 12-13 damage attacks, one of which stuns, can be played as a reversal, and has anti multiple hate?

The Promo version can run Fury of The Ancients, B-rad, off Fire.

Kinda what I want to use her for. But Fury is hard to come by.

Oh I know the promo can, and should But the Air one is absolute garbage when put up against her Promo version.

B-Rad said:

PROTIP : Why use one when you can use both?

WhatAboutBob? said:

But if you run some combination, you're likely running more than 8 attacks, and definitely more than 6.

In a spike deck, you can run 8 or fewer attacks, and know that only 8 cards have less than a 5cc. Occasionally, a 1-check will bite you in the ass. (Though I've never lost a game to someone flipping a Spike. They usually spammed so well that they committed to make the check. The smart ones start turns with 1-diff foundations just in case.) But while it loses occasional games, the overall consistency wins many more.

The deck that most heavily whooped me last night had 8 attacks if I'm not mistaken (Zero Cross can correct me if I'm wrong): Spike and Tiger Fury. His kill condition was Spike, and if the opponent survived, follow it with Tiger Fury. There were also 4x LotM and 4x Olcadans, which are also older cards which will continue to dominate their symbols in the current meta.

The original poster's fear is that top slots will continue to be dominated by older cards and play styles (heavy control, single-card finishers), and that fear has not been allayed. The most convincing argument I've heard was the one early in this thread about a psychological shift.

Quite frankly, we may see a change in play style, just because people are sick of the old style. That's why people stopped running Absurd Strength around here. It never stopped being game-winning, but about 8 months ago, we all got sick of being hit with it and stopped using it. That doesn't mean it was balanced, or should have been kept around.

B-Rad said:

Zi Mei - one has air, one does not. The promo cant even play FSpike.

Promo Temujin - His ability absolutley does not scream spike, his ability screams play some other multiples with better checks and lower difficulty that you can throw for just as much damage as spike. FSpike + him is a potential 42 damage, enough to kill anyone in the game, but typically overkill against most of the field. Meloncholic + him is a potential 30 damage, still enough to kill most tourney characters, but substantially less risky to run because of its 2 check and lower difficulty. Add to that the fact that since its difficulty is 4 you can follow it with another copy (all at +2 speed) for the same difficulty as Fspike.

The fact still remains, 1 checks lose games. If you run 2 checks, you can safley play a 2-1-0 difficulty foundation on your opening turn. On your next turn if you roll a 2 you can still pass the check and have one foundation or your character ready. With 1 checks you can only safley gaurentee 2 foundations. if you roll a 1 on your spike next turn, you fail. Air has better options at this point.

So what you're saying is that CSS would be perfectly fine if brought back into the format, because it's riskier than other attacks?

They're right. There realy is no point in running something other than Spike if you're playing Air, with a very limited number of exceptions. I'd post a scan of An Efficient Method for Slaying People, but I cba to find one. Picture it in your head, instead.

Protoaddict said:

And yet you've failed to name any of them. Yes, certain characters can easily get by without Spike. Do you mean to say that any character that finds Spike to be the better option shouldn't be played because they aren't good?

Admiral Ren said:

Oh no, you mean you guys are saying the resource with arguably the best foundation base right now... has a limited choice of win conditions?

OH MY GOD NO NOT A LIMITATION ON THE RESOURCE

Next thing you know, people will complain that back in Legacy, Death decks needed Tiamat's Rampage to kill...

Tagrineth said:

But they didn't. They had Shouder Rush spam, they had Spin Drive Smasher, Earth Divide, Final Atomic Buster (if Zangief... Even though I don't think any Gief's had Death), Final Destruction (if Cody), and Tiger Genocide (if Sagat) pre Fortune and Glory/Fight for the Future/Higher Caliber.

I'm not saying give us more powerful card like Spike, I'm saying give us cards as effecint at killing people as Spike. Those that have been listed so far are ok, but are nowhere near as effecient as Spike.

Brad, that's what he was saying.

Hell..name any good Death attack back in Legacy. It's potential to kill was quite high.

Ah well, I thought he meant death's only way to kill was Tiamat's.

Either way my point still stands, give Air something else to use as a kill card that's at least 95% as effecient as Spike. PS, HDC I simply MUST discuss Ibuki decks with ya at some point.

Tagrineth said:

Tagrineth said:

The complaint is that it's : "Use Spike or bust." Whereas other symbols have more flexibility. Evil can run Knight Breaker or the Astaroth Powerful : 2 attack that simply can't be hacked (and is a throw).

Here's a little secret : I don't like Spikes (Whether Mega, Feline or Lee). I probably never will. Being pretty much forced to use the card in my last regional (for lack of an option that isn't so grossly disgustingly awesome) instead of something more tailored to the character was pretty disgusting. And by tailored to the character I mean synergical with effects (granted I ran the attack that was, but another one would have been good), one that, with said character could work best.

Except that attack doesn't exist, and it doesn't exist for the majority of characters. Tira has Menuett Dance/Shredding Vibrato (although the Vibrato fits good in Taki as well), Alba has Arrogance, Zi Mei (starter), in a sense, has Fury of the Ancients. Temujin has his Combos.

Set 12 attacks benefit characters from Set 12, which is good.

Except we still have a year of characters that are pretty much relegated to Spike only in Air. Air getting another finisher? Bad. Air getting an attack that could replace Spike in decks that don't really need it but put it in because hey dude it's Spike? Good.

It's not "ZOMG WE NEED SPIKE TO KILL!", I'd just have not to faceroll my deck choices and actually make my brain freaking work.

Homme Chapeau said:

It worked in the first place? <3

Your point stands, nonetheless.

HolyDragonCloud said:

It goddamned well shouldn't have. Hatman should NEVER top 8 anything. NEVER.

I haz a Cervantes to build nao though. Yes, the latest one.

At what point do I mention that I was T2King folks at PotM in a deck where Clean Freak was my only attack?

Antigoth said:

At the point where you're ready to spoil the combo ;p

I know it...I was just keeping my big mouth shut =P

Smazzurco said:

I'll have 'em, name your price. Cards or cash.

I've got three left I have no use for.

Knight Breakers, BRT, and so on xD

Another week, yet another thread talking about feline spike, with absolutely no new points being added. The phrase 'beating a dead horse' comes to mind, here.