1. How many successes would you consider one triumph to be worth? (yes, we're talking Triumph with its 1 success inside)

2. If the value of a success result was 1, what would you consider the value of an advantage to be?

How good is a Triumph? I realize this is a bit abstract... One could say that figuring out the answers to these two questions could possibly help one find the most optimal path to building their character (as you could assign point values to all the dice). I mean, think about it, would you rather spend XP to get 4 yellow dice on a roll, or is getting 1 yellow and 3 green dice more XP cost efficient, because adding a yellow dice *takes away* a green dice in the process? Yeah, yeah, EotE is not that kind of game where you should be power-gaming, but I'm posting on a forum right now, not actually playing. I know it also depends on the GM you're playing with...

Red Leader: I rolled a triumph! Did it go in!?!

GM: Errr...yeahh... no... If you're not going to use the force, it's going to take at least two triumphs... It just impacted on the surface... sorry...

I feel that a Triumph is worth 2.5 successes, and an advantage to be 0.5. What about you?

I mean, think about it, would you rather spend XP to get 4 yellow dice on a roll

I would rather spend XP to reflect my character's growth and maturity as a result of his life experiences.

I mean, think about it, would you rather spend XP to get 4 yellow dice on a roll

I would rather spend XP to reflect my character's growth and maturity as a result of his life experiences.

Yep, so would I, but this is just for the sake of this thread.

I feel that a Triumph is worth 2.5 successes, and an advantage to be 0.5. What about you?

A Triumph is worth whatever a Triumph can do. In combat, you can use it to upgrade an allied character's next check. How many extra successes or advantages does that bring? I'm sure someone can do the math.

Personally I think it's a mistake to start swapping around results. You can do things with triumphs and advantages that can't be done with successes, but if you start swapping then you lose the integrity of the system, succeed when you shouldn't, and lose narrative possibilities. Might as well go back to D20

would you rather spend XP to get 4 yellow dice on a roll, or is getting 1 yellow and 3 green dice more XP cost efficient, because adding a yellow dice *takes away* a green dice in the process?

There are twice as many double-symbol faces on the yellow, so the chances of the spectacular happening increase with more yellow dice. You're paying an increasing XP cost to reflect the increasing odds of getting, say, 4 Triumphs, or enough successes to one-shot a nemesis. Basically, I think you get what you pay for, so there is no cost-efficiency point (or not one that matters enough to worry about).

These are pretty hard to quantify mathematically due to the nature of the game and the differing ways that GMs will interpret dice, especially on non-combat rolls. I think its important to note that EotE is not a combat simulator with other mechanics tossed on like D&D or other games, so you can't just judge the value of a character by combat.

All that said, you're doing a thought exercise and I get that. I'd probably do some of the following parameters. Stick strictly to combat, as that has the most codified rules for how to spend the dice. Don't try to combine success, advantage and triumph; just leave them as separate parts of the rules. (So you might say a fortune die is worth 1/3 successes and 1/2 advantage). Separating these out would also allow for character optimization that works toward farming advantage or successes or what have you. Does that help a bit?

Using the example of the Death Star. A Triumph was rolled but the attack didn't succeed. It was enough to shake up the Death Star though and perhaps the GM gave Luke a boost die because of what they learned. The second time was a successful attack as well as probably getting a Triumph.

I think the problem here is that they specifically aren't supposed to be comparable by definition. Success and advantage are designed to be apples and oranges.

Any assignment of comparative value is going to be situational. So the real answer is, "it depends on the roll."

Indulging the thought experiment, I'll state the following:

1 Ability (green) die is worth 0.625 Success, 1 Proficiency (yellow) die is worth 0.833 Success, and 1 Boost (blue) die is worth 0.333 Success.

It's really difficult if not simply pointless to equate Triumph and Advantage to Success. In a sense, Triumph and Advantage are worth zero Success if you're only accounting for your current roll. On the other hand, they might be worth some fraction of a Success for someone else since you can use them to Boost or Upgrade another PC's roll depending on the circumstances upon which the current and future checks are made. The amount of potential Success varies depending on how many future rolls you want to try to consider since Boosts can generate more Advantage which could lead to more Boosts and more Success and so on. I think there's some math or something that can predict all of that but it's been decades since I flunked out of my college calculus classes so I really couldn't tell you.

1)Successes, no matter how many, aren't Triumphs. Success, Advantage, and Triumph are almost all different to me. Closest thing to an exception is you can use a Triumph to trigger any level of Advantage type event if you so desire. (Though also since 1 Triumph also has a cancel-able Success to it there's that, but not quite the same argument)

2) If the value of a Success was 1, I'd consider the value of an Advantage to be Aardvark and the Value of a Triumph to be Puce, except when it needs to be Aardvark.

How good is a Triumph?.....I feel that a Triumph is worth 2.5 successes, and an advantage to be 0.5. What about you?

The entire mechanic, the thing that makes it different from most of the other systems out there, is based on the idea that Advantage/Triumph and Success aren't really comparable at all. That's the point of the 2½ axis of success, when you start saying X Triumph = Y Advantage = Z Success you're dumbing the system back down to 1 Axis and getting rid of the thing that makes the system work with the Star Wars setting so well.

I think if you start reducing the die results down to simply success or failure ratios you are missing the point of the system. In this system there is a spectrum of results not just success and failure, like in life things can take a funny bounce and something that failed my result in some really interesting outcomes and more importantly cinematic scenes. That unpredictability of the of what might happen with the triumph or advantage die are what to me make this system so interesting and compelling.

(shrug) I felt that assigning a point value to each type of result allows one to look at the value of each type of die, and be able to control the way they build their character from this. I mean FFG must have assigned a value to the Triumph result at some point in their development; How else did they come up with the other results of the die? When I made a char with ranks in stealth, I wondered if the Stalker Talent (adds boost die to coordination/stealth) was a better choice than outright getting ranks in stealth. I figured out that getting stalker was more cost efficient and had better die results than getting a yellow in stealth, but I could only come to that conclusion if I assigned a point value to these results first.

In that case, the only comparisons I think you can reasonably apply with any legitimacy is:

Boost Dice have a 2-in-6 chance of a blank result (33.3%).

Ability Dice have a 1-in-8 chance of a blank result (12.5%).

Proficiency Dice have a 1-in-12 chance of a blank result (8.3%).

And...

Boost Dice generate at least 1 success on 2-of-6 sides (33.3%).

Ability Dice generate at least 1 success on 4-of-8 sides (50.0%).

Proficiency Dice generate at least 1 success on 8-of-12 sides (66.6%).

[EDIT: Bonus Fun Fact: All three dice have exactly a 50% chance of generating at least 1 Advantage...]

In that case, the only comparisons I think you can reasonably apply with any legitimacy is:

Boost Dice have a 2-in-6 chance of a blank result (33.3%).

Ability Dice have a 1-in-8 chance of a blank result (12.5%).

Proficiency Dice have a 1-in-12 chance of a blank result (8.3%).

And...

Boost Dice generate at least 1 success on 2-of-6 sides (33.3%).

Ability Dice generate at least 1 success on 4-of-8 sides (50.0%).

Proficiency Dice generate at least 1 success on 8-of-12 sides (66.6%).

[EDIT: Bonus Fun Fact: All three dice have exactly a 50% chance of generating at least 1 Advantage...]

I feel that it's a legitimate comparison.

I claim that advantage and triumph can be assigned values. It's like if you go to swap meet and you find a cool computer gizmo. It might not work, but it might work really well. You might not ever end up using it because you're a pack rat. You barter with him down to 10 dollars, because that's how much it's worth to you at the moment. With my appraisal abilities, I'd say this gizmo is worth 10, and triumph to be worth 2.5 successes. If you asked me "Would you like a yellow die with a triumph on one side, or 3 successes on one side instead?" I might say "Gee, I'd rather have the triumph because it's more fun, but if I was in a life or death situation, I'd rather have the 3 successes".

Does it REALLY matter that much to me how much these results are worth? No. I thought it was a simple thread idea that people could indulge in with me, but the point of the thread is contested, and so I felt that I should try to defend myself.

Well... Generally more dice is usually better than fewer dice if you're purely concerned about Success. After that, yellow dice are better than green, green are better than blue. Yellow are the only dice that generate Triumphs. "Better" can change depending on the circumstances and if you're trying to generate Success, Advantage, or Triumphs. The probabilities explode with complexity once you add more than a few dice into the pool and since the GM can Boost, Setback, Upgrade, and Downgrade at will, you're probably better of not worrying about it.

But, if you just love numbers, probabilities, and stuff like that, I can't blame you. Here's a fun website to play with that will generate the probabilities for any particular dice pool that you care to imagine:

http://game2.com/eote/?montecarlo=100000

Enjoy!

To me the good thing about Blue is: (1) if permanent, they are usually gained from Talents (meaning you progress through a Spec tree when getting them); (2) they tend to be cheaper than buying Ranks 3-4 in a Skill, if bought in Talents; (3) Talents that give Bs are usually Ranked so you can get more and more (Stalker is probably the best one ever).

And now, to continue playing the other side of the argument, the value of Success, Advantage, and Triumph can change depending on circumstances as well as your role.

Let's use arbitrary values of Gold, Silver, and Copper since as many of us have mentioned already, actual values are pointless.

The heavy hitting hired gun versus minions might value Success at Gold, Advantage at Silver, and Triumph at Copper. More damage means killing more minions and he needs as much Success as possible. His blaster rifle will let him crit with three Advantage or with one Triumph and while crits are nice, they're overkill with these minions since critting will only kill one minion. The Advantage lets him regain Strain and Triumph will set up situational benefits for the entire party.

Now, that same hired gun is up against a rival at short range and now values Advantage at Gold, Success at Silver, and Triumph at Copper. He wants to stack on those crits and Advantage will let him do that but only if he hits so he can't discount Success too much but he knows he can reliably hit more often than not. Triumphs would also be good but he finds that he can generate more Advantage with his particular dice pool in this circumstance.

A nemesis enters the picture at medium range. Also, the GM turns off the lights adding Setback dice to the pool. The hired gun now values Success at Gold, Triumph at Silver, and Advantage at Copper. He needs enough Success to hit and to generate enough damage to get through the enemy's soak and he needs the Triumph to crit since more Threat is being generated, canceling out the Advantages. If the hired gun flips a Destiny Point, Triumph may suddenly switch to being Gold for that one roll.

We've focused on the hired gun this entire time. What about the colonist helping out in the fight? He knows he cannot hope to hit with his meager skill in Ranged - Light so he values Advantages at Gold, Success at Copper, and Triumph at Zero since he has no yellow dice in his pool. At least with enough Advantage, he can pass Boost dice along to other party members or push Setback dice onto the enemy and narratively explaining it as cover and suppression fire.

Curiously, it's because you picked Success as your measure of value that this discussion turned out the way it did. You might be able to draw a direct comparison between Triumph and Advantage since in some circumstances they are interchangeable—three Advantages with a blaster rifle would equal one Triumph with respect to generating a crit. Switch to a light blaster pistol and suddenly it's four Advantages per Triumph. The difference with Success is that only Success equals Success. Trying to aim a proton torpedo from your T-65 at a two meter target while flying at full speed requires Success to hit. Triumph and Advantage would grant you situational benefits (some cover or perhaps that TIE/Advanced on your tail drops its speed by one) but what is the value of those benefits worth versus the value of destroying some goofy looking space station before it fires upon your Rebel Base?

I think you're picking apart what Triumph, advantage, and success are at a situational level. I'd rather have $5000 than a bottle of water, but if I was stranded in the desert and my only hope of survival was a bottle of water, I'll take that instead. Most of the time, I'd still rather take the money, and most of the time, I would prefer 3 successes over one triumph.

A hired gun does not pull out a special hired gun set of dice out, he plays with the same dice as everyone else. What his class favors in terms of dice rolling is indeed situational, but the dice that you buy for this game are not situational. Given that the dice are not situational, the original concept of the thread was to put an average of value for adv and triumph.

I guess I'll just stop here though, as nobody else here cares to speculate what the value of the other dice results are.

It don't matter anyhow.

In the case of shooting something, are 3 successes better than a triumph? Maybe. Maybe not. Did you already hit? If so, is 2 more points of damage better than a crit? Again, maybe. Maybe not.

In the case of shooting something, are 3 successes better than a triumph? Maybe. Maybe not. Did you already hit? If so, is 2 more points of damage better than a crit? Again, maybe. Maybe not.

You're just getting started!

Are 2 more points of damage better than:

• Removing an enemy's defense making them more likely to be hit by a party member.
• Disabling the enemy's jet pack for one turn, sending him crashing to the ground and dealing an additional 10 Wounds and 10 Strain.
• Shooting the blaster out of the enemy's hand.
• Shooting the controls to activate the blast door, sealing the enemies off on the other side and ending the entire encounter with one shot.