I really like Rinehart's method for 'limited' construction.

Part of the issue with a fixed-point game, you can't really just 'draft' as points become a big issue (it worked ok in DDM/SWM because of the wide variety of point costs and appropriately randomized boosters).

I would do one of two things: assign rebel/imperial and each pull from a different pool, or just pull from a single large pool and forget faction restrictions. In thinking about how this would play out: Imperials have the upgrade advantage since they don't have a bunch of astromechs, and rebels have the ship advantage since they, individually, have the ship advantage. Personally, I would construct the 'ship' decks based on how many of that ship I could individually field. 8 Academy pilots, 7 Obsidian, 7 Black Squad, 1 each unique, 3 BH, 1 each unique, etc. The real trick is 'balancing' how many cards is appropriate to draw. Is 10 the right number? 10 upgrades? I think limiting the pools is better than not.

I've tried a variation on this. Using the many squad generating programs out there, my friend and I have the ships that are available to us plugged in. We set the point limit at 100 points, and click random generate. While the list that is generated may not necessarily be the one that we would put together for ourselves, they are almost always competitive in one way or another. And, there is also the fact that once the list is generated, we may find ourselves using pilots and card combos that we never would have thought of before in new and interesting ways.

One thing that we have added to this style of play is a substitution rule. We allow one substitution per generated fleet. Whether that means we sub out a ship or sub out an ept, modification or upgrade, we allow ourselves only one sub per fleet.

This keeps us on our toes and ensures that at some point we will likely fly with a ship, ept, modification that we wouldn't normally use. It gets us used to ALL of the different cards, and makes us use them in new and interesting ways.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be a viable alternative format to tournaments.

Because it cuts choice out lf the equation. When prizes are on the line giving players choice stops hard feelings, because that one guy who got Storm Squadron Pilot will blame his loss on that for eternity. But giving people a small collection and letting them work from there is fun for everyone.

But I think that is the point. If we all had our choice, we would be running Tie Swarms, Triple Bounty Hunters, Dual Falcons, or BBXX lists.

I don't see this as being any different from a sealed deck tourney for Magic. You never know what you're going to get. (Raise your hand if you read that last line in Forrest Gump's voice! )

This allows some randomness to games that otherwise would not be there.

Now, I'm not suggesting scrapping the current tournament rules at all, but having this sort of thing as a side tournament might be interesting. I've only tried it in casual games so far, but I have to say it keeps things interesting, and forces you to try combinations that you likely wouldn't try otherwise, and I think (though may be wrong) that was the point the OP was trying to get across..

I've tried a variation on this. Using the many squad generating programs out there, my friend and I have the ships that are available to us plugged in. We set the point limit at 100 points, and click random generate. While the list that is generated may not necessarily be the one that we would put together for ourselves, they are almost always competitive in one way or another. And, there is also the fact that once the list is generated, we may find ourselves using pilots and card combos that we never would have thought of before in new and interesting ways.

One thing that we have added to this style of play is a substitution rule. We allow one substitution per generated fleet. Whether that means we sub out a ship or sub out an ept, modification or upgrade, we allow ourselves only one sub per fleet.

This keeps us on our toes and ensures that at some point we will likely fly with a ship, ept, modification that we wouldn't normally use. It gets us used to ALL of the different cards, and makes us use them in new and interesting ways.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be a viable alternative format to tournaments.

Because it cuts choice out lf the equation. When prizes are on the line giving players choice stops hard feelings, because that one guy who got Storm Squadron Pilot will blame his loss on that for eternity. But giving people a small collection and letting them work from there is fun for everyone.

But I think that is the point. If we all had our choice, we would be running Tie Swarms, Triple Bounty Hunters, Dual Falcons, or BBXX lists.

I don't see this as being any different from a sealed deck tourney for Magic. You never know what you're going to get. (Raise your hand if you read that last line in Forrest Gump's voice! )

This allows some randomness to games that otherwise would not be there.

Now, I'm not suggesting scrapping the current tournament rules at all, but having this sort of thing as a side tournament might be interesting. I've only tried it in casual games so far, but I have to say it keeps things interesting, and forces you to try combinations that you likely wouldn't try otherwise, and I think (though may be wrong) that was the point the OP was trying to get across..

The best ways to do this are to shuffle together a big deck of pilot cards and deal out twice as many as needed, or(to preserve collections) to use a random generator and let people work with the 200 points of pilots they are handed. The other option would be to put one of ever pilot card in the middle of the table and have people choose in order what they want in a set order. The Rebel imperial bias would be interesting...

This can be made to work without being too random though...

I actually like the idea of being able to use any ship you want from either ship faction. I would never want that in constructed but in sealed it could make for some very different kinds of builds. Another interesting thing you could do is switch pilots between any ship if you draft them. Pilot skill is easily accounted for by subtracting their points from the base pilot and then adding that to the other ship. Of course vader falcon might be a bit OP, but it would be fun. Money is the big challenge with any format like this.

I've tried a variation on this. Using the many squad generating programs out there, my friend and I have the ships that are available to us plugged in. We set the point limit at 100 points, and click random generate. While the list that is generated may not necessarily be the one that we would put together for ourselves, they are almost always competitive in one way or another. And, there is also the fact that once the list is generated, we may find ourselves using pilots and card combos that we never would have thought of before in new and interesting ways.

One thing that we have added to this style of play is a substitution rule. We allow one substitution per generated fleet. Whether that means we sub out a ship or sub out an ept, modification or upgrade, we allow ourselves only one sub per fleet.

This keeps us on our toes and ensures that at some point we will likely fly with a ship, ept, modification that we wouldn't normally use. It gets us used to ALL of the different cards, and makes us use them in new and interesting ways.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be a viable alternative format to tournaments.

Because it cuts choice out lf the equation. When prizes are on the line giving players choice stops hard feelings, because that one guy who got Storm Squadron Pilot will blame his loss on that for eternity. But giving people a small collection and letting them work from there is fun for everyone.

But I think that is the point. If we all had our choice, we would be running Tie Swarms, Triple Bounty Hunters, Dual Falcons, or BBXX lists.

I don't see this as being any different from a sealed deck tourney for Magic. You never know what you're going to get. (Raise your hand if you read that last line in Forrest Gump's voice! )

This allows some randomness to games that otherwise would not be there.

Now, I'm not suggesting scrapping the current tournament rules at all, but having this sort of thing as a side tournament might be interesting. I've only tried it in casual games so far, but I have to say it keeps things interesting, and forces you to try combinations that you likely wouldn't try otherwise, and I think (though may be wrong) that was the point the OP was trying to get across..

The point of sealed isn't to cut choice, it's to balance the monetary playing field. No paying to win. If you make it 100% or even much over 50% random it becomes a tournament of who got the best list relative to skill, not who built the best list for their playstyle. I know this is what the OP is talking about as well. He isn't likely to want 100% random lists, he's trying to create a sealed format for tournaments. Sealed formats still need choice.

The best ways to do this are to shuffle together a big deck of pilot cards and deal out twice as many as needed, or(to preserve collections) to use a random generator and let people work with the 200 points of pilots they are handed. The other option would be to put one of ever pilot card in the middle of the table and have people choose in order what they want in a set order. The Rebel imperial bias would be interesting...

This can be made to work without being too random though...

Ok, so running with that idea.. rather than plugging in 100 points, why not plug in 200 points to the random generator? Of the 200 points worth of ships/upgrades, each player would then choose the 100 point squad that best suited them.. Still some randomness, but the choice is there for you as well to construct a fleet. Again, I only made a suggestion based on what works for us (my friend and I), and I would be interested to try this out with 200 points.. Although, I still think you're going to see a lot of the same sorts of builds you see now in the current meta.

I'm not at all opposed to randomness, as long as everyone on the field has the same restrictions applied to them. And as I said, I don't see this as taking the place of the tournaments as they currently are played. I see this more as an alternative or supplemental way of play.

I've tried a variation on this. Using the many squad generating programs out there, my friend and I have the ships that are available to us plugged in. We set the point limit at 100 points, and click random generate. While the list that is generated may not necessarily be the one that we would put together for ourselves, they are almost always competitive in one way or another. And, there is also the fact that once the list is generated, we may find ourselves using pilots and card combos that we never would have thought of before in new and interesting ways.

One thing that we have added to this style of play is a substitution rule. We allow one substitution per generated fleet. Whether that means we sub out a ship or sub out an ept, modification or upgrade, we allow ourselves only one sub per fleet.

This keeps us on our toes and ensures that at some point we will likely fly with a ship, ept, modification that we wouldn't normally use. It gets us used to ALL of the different cards, and makes us use them in new and interesting ways.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be a viable alternative format to tournaments.

Because it cuts choice out lf the equation. When prizes are on the line giving players choice stops hard feelings, because that one guy who got Storm Squadron Pilot will blame his loss on that for eternity. But giving people a small collection and letting them work from there is fun for everyone.

But I think that is the point. If we all had our choice, we would be running Tie Swarms, Triple Bounty Hunters, Dual Falcons, or BBXX lists.

I don't see this as being any different from a sealed deck tourney for Magic. You never know what you're going to get. (Raise your hand if you read that last line in Forrest Gump's voice! )

This allows some randomness to games that otherwise would not be there.

Now, I'm not suggesting scrapping the current tournament rules at all, but having this sort of thing as a side tournament might be interesting. I've only tried it in casual games so far, but I have to say it keeps things interesting, and forces you to try combinations that you likely wouldn't try otherwise, and I think (though may be wrong) that was the point the OP was trying to get across..

The point of sealed isn't to cut choice, it's to balance the monetary playing field. No paying to win. If you make it 100% or even much over 50% random it becomes a tournament of who got the best list relative to skill, not who built the best list for their playstyle. I know this is what the OP is talking about as well. He isn't likely to want 100% random lists, he's trying to create a sealed format for tournaments. Sealed formats still need choice.

The best ways to do this are to shuffle together a big deck of pilot cards and deal out twice as many as needed, or(to preserve collections) to use a random generator and let people work with the 200 points of pilots they are handed. The other option would be to put one of ever pilot card in the middle of the table and have people choose in order what they want in a set order. The Rebel imperial bias would be interesting...

This can be made to work without being too random though...

Ok, so running with that idea.. rather than plugging in 100 points, why not plug in 200 points to the random generator? Of the 200 points worth of ships/upgrades, each player would then choose the 100 point squad that best suited them.. Still some randomness, but the choice is there for you as well to construct a fleet. Again, I only made a suggestion based on what works for us (my friend and I), and I would be interested to try this out with 200 points.. Although, I still think you're going to see a lot of the same sorts of builds you see now in the current meta.

I'm not at all opposed to randomness, as long as everyone on the field has the same restrictions applied to them. And as I said, I don't see this as taking the place of the tournaments as they currently are played. I see this more as an alternative or supplemental way of play.

But I'm not happy with it. A draft in Magic has each player opening 3 or 4 packs and passing them around, then building a deck from what they get. I want to duplicate that more than just assign random squads.

Maybe the best way is to have each player get a random pack of cards. Say, 6 Rebel and 9 Imperial. Then have them pick a card from each and pass left. The TO could make those random card packs. Just duplicate the experience as best possible. Upgrade cards are another question, but I would say have each player work with their private collection.

I think there is a fundamental problem with using a card game format for a miniature game. In magic, $15 will buy several boosters, allowing for a draft or sealed format. However, in X-wing, that will only buy one miniature. Any of the other formats suggested is highly dependent upon collections already owned, where someone with only a few ships, or a collection based upon only a few ships would not have the same options as someone with 2-4 of each ship.

I propose a different idea to accommodate these issues. Instead of using a random squad generator, each person buys a new ship and builds a squad based around that ship. Is could be random which ship you get or set based on which faction. For example, Imperial players get an advanced and rebel players get a hwk-290. They have to use that ship and at least two upgrade cards from that pack, and use their own ships for fill in the rest of the points to 100. This would keep the cost to around the same as a magic sealed/draft, promote the purchase of new ships and get some of the less used ships some action.

A different strategy would be to place some limits on what can be placed in lists. You could have one ship disallowed, or mandatory. Imagine a game where every list had to have an advanced and no regular ties, or a rebel list that had to have an a-wing and no x-wings. Another option would be to limit the number of a type of ship allowed, no more than one large based ship, two-tie maximum

I think quasi-random is the way to go, like deckbuilding in Magic. You load up your deck with combos you'd like to see, but you do your best with whatever you actually draw.

I propose something like: Show up with a deck of a certain number of ship cards, a deck of a certain number of upgrade cards. Randomly discard a certain number of cards from each deck, and make your 100-point squad using whatever is left.

To prevent spamming, limit each ship type (X-Wing, TIE Bomber, etc.). For X-Wings or TIE Bombers, maybe 4 cards, but you'd want higher for ships that are designed for swarming, so these limits should be assigned on a case-by-case basis. For deckbuilding purposes, uniques are still unique. Players would obviously be allowed to look at each other's decks before drawing down to their final options, although squad-building should still be done in secret and revealed simultaneously before play.

For competitive play, you'd need a ship model for each ship you actually choose to field, otherwise you play with what you have even if you're well below 100 points as a result.

Only issue with that is that this is a miniatures game and not a card game.

Well yes but this is a card game as well as a miniatures game.

I like the idea of random lists, what would be nice is a program that the user can enter in what expansion packs they have and how many of each, this way the random generator is making random lists based on what you have in your collection.

be hardcore if you don't have the "random" ship then you have 5 minutes to acquire it from somebody, if you cant get it you play on with out it... and if your opponent has it he or she DOESN'T have to lend it to you...lol cause if you only let the user put in what expansion packs he or she has, there will always be that one dude that shows up and says, I only have one X wing and 8 Ties!!!!

I think there is a fundamental problem with using a card game format for a miniature game. In magic, $15 will buy several boosters, allowing for a draft or sealed format. However, in X-wing, that will only buy one miniature. Any of the other formats suggested is highly dependent upon collections already owned, where someone with only a few ships, or a collection based upon only a few ships would not have the same options as someone with 2-4 of each ship.

I propose a different idea to accommodate these issues. Instead of using a random squad generator, each person buys a new ship and builds a squad based around that ship. Is could be random which ship you get or set based on which faction. For example, Imperial players get an advanced and rebel players get a hwk-290. They have to use that ship and at least two upgrade cards from that pack, and use their own ships for fill in the rest of the points to 100. This would keep the cost to around the same as a magic sealed/draft, promote the purchase of new ships and get some of the less used ships some action.

A different strategy would be to place some limits on what can be placed in lists. You could have one ship disallowed, or mandatory. Imagine a game where every list had to have an advanced and no regular ties, or a rebel list that had to have an a-wing and no x-wings. Another option would be to limit the number of a type of ship allowed, no more than one large based ship, two-tie maximum

This would have to be a community effort with ship sharing for the duration or it ouldn't work. Fortunatly many communities are made up of kind people. There is a fair bit of lending at my venue, and I doubt mine is the only one.

hey this could set up a whole new side business, X-wing miniature rentals!!! you could "Rent" the needed miniature and have the money go into the winning pot, or to the person you rented it from!! I think 15 bucks per round is an acceptable rental fee..lol

I don't like the idea of random lists at all. Some are gonna just be a bit too poor. Quazi-random, well that has some merit. BUT I DO think the idea of inventing a fresh competition format is a good idea.

So I've tried to invent a new tournament format for you:

The tournament organisers create 4 FIXED lists. Maybe at 80points (should make the battle a bit shorter). They DONT publish the lists in advance, but they DO issue an invite to 20 players (and maybe 2 or 3 reserves who might get a game if there are drop outs). Now these 20 players are going to have to bring a number of ships and their cards, as instructed by the tournament organisers. The organisers are going to put together four 80 point lists, and the entrants will need to bring the ships that they have been told to bring. In the days before the tournament the entrants will be speculating as to how the four lists might use the ships out of the full roster, but they won't know until the day of the tournament!

The 20 players are split into 4 pools of five players. In the "swiss rounds" each player plays a 60min timed match against all the other 4 players in their pool, and has to play the list they are told to play! The player with the most wins (modified or whatever) after the swiss rounds goes through to the knockouts. In the event of a tiebreaker (lol) the player with the most total kill points during the swiss is the one who goes through.

Each pool will have a winner, so with four pools of players, you have two semi-final rounds and then of course a final.

The players get to choose which list of the four they want to play in their semifinal match. (untimed match).

Same rule for final game.

What do you think people??

With clever listbuilding a tournament organiser should be able to create something that is fun to play, fair for all, and uses stuff that doesnt get dusted off very much. The better players should come out on top, because they can see "how" a list might best be played after only seeing it for five minutes, and (if desired) you could make a tournament that doesnt include all that many different ships, just core and a handful of other ships from each faction so you dont have to be Mr Rich to take part..

If you haven't read anything else up this point, what I'm advocating is (sort of) simple: a new format, perhaps just a casual one, focused around purely random lists. This would be analogous to Magic's sealed format, where players are given a handful of packs and left to construct the best deck out of the cards that are given to them. I don't think the translation to X-Wing would be particularly difficult, though it would require a healthy sized collection, perhaps even pooled between two players. Ideally one of our friendly forum denizens could write a simple program with an algorithm that generates a random list of, I don't know, say 150-200 points of combined ships and upgrades, and then it would be left up to the player to make the best use of those assets by constructing his own list of 100 points. Suddenly ships that you might not otherwise give a second glance at become your all-stars.

I'd be down for a randomly drawn list for ****'s and giggles. The few guys I play with right now will always field the 2-3 most powerful options available to them until the new more powerful hotness comes out. This would spice things up a bit.

I agree, this would be a great idea in order to try out some cards you don't use much or have never used, and it will also be good practice for effective squad building. You might even find some synergies after mixing up some cards that you never saw before.

Maybe we could do away with the cards and have all the stats and movement on a clickable dial/base combo.

I've done some toying around with a theory, but haven't gotten to actually playtest it yet.

If you've played Smallworld, these rules may seem familiar

Everyone has a set number of points.

1. All of the pilot cards are mixed into one of two decks (separated by Faction, of course).
   1. 3 copies of Generic Pilots are mixed in, while only 1 copy of each Unique pilot are allowed.
2. Each deck deals out 5 cards, in a line leading from the deck (so the first one dealt is the farthest away).
3. A player picks a single pilot of those 5. They may spend 1 more point the closer to the deck they go. (i.e. If you have Deck, Wedge, Rookie, Han, Green, and Lando, you can pick Lando for his asking price, or Green for his asking price +1, or Han for his asking price +2, et c.).
4. Once a pilot has been chosen, a marker is added to each "Skipped" pilot (so if you chose Han, the Green and Lando both get a marker), the chosen pilot is removed from the list, and the others slide down a slot.
5. A new card is dealt into the 5th position.
6. Pilots cost 1 point LESS for each marker they've accumulated (as well as 1 point MORE for each pilot you skip to pick it).
7. Each player continues picking pilots until they are ready to flesh out the rest of their fleet with upgrades.

This seems as though it would work best in a multi-fleet format, rather than a paired-off tournament. It also seems as close to a Draft format as we can get!

Edit: I think I failed at being succinct.

Failed at succinctness, but succeeded at poignancy. Kudos. ( get sick of people saying that costs need to be reduced too).

Let me start by admitting that I have not read the whole thread, so my apologies if this has already been suggested here or elsewhere.

Another potential solution would be to set up a random mirror-ish match. Something like: the two players pick a faction, then match up ships from that faction that they each have in common. Take the pilot cards for those ships, mix them up, then flip them over until you have somewhere between 75-100 points. Both players have to use those ships/pilots, but each may add upgrades however he wishes.

It's not a perfect system, but it could create some interesting situations with not-commonly-used ships and pilots.

Not being in any way a competative player I have a couple of thoughts with regards to this game balance issue.

Star Wars is a story as well as an expanded universe.

The character pilots/cards appear in these stories and although they may appear now and then out of the context of story based battles, you are not going to get Han, Luke & Wedge fighting, Bobba, Vader and Fel in every battle, on 4 tables at the same time.

For the vast majority of the space battles there should be NO characters, only stock pilots.

This could and should also apply to upgrades and ships. You are unlikely to get 2 YT1300's facing off against 2 firesprays. Limit the ships too.

So for the vast majority of the competition games I would like to see how a vanilla fighter only list would work, with a minimal point upgrade limit, at least for the qualifying rounds.

For the later rounds the organiser should be controlling the lists more by adding in a specific character build or adding the ability to field lower level characters/upgrades/ships.

Only in the final battle should the main characters be allowed and even then I would argue that the players must field a specific build that has been constructed and tested to be well balanced. This will also prove that they can play any ship and not just their favourite build.

This makes the work of organising the competition a bit more difficult and it may make things a little samey at the beginning. But hey, you are organising a competition, leaving it open to any list is just a bit lazy isn't it?

You should be writting a new chapter or re-playing a specific battle. You should know when and where The Falcon appears and whether Bobba Fett is hanging around and not just leaving it up to the players.

Also there is nothing to say that you have to keep the final Points balanced if you, as the organiser, are specifying the builds and know that it will be one sided at 250 pts then increase the points for the other team to balance it.

Anyway these are just my thoughts.

I do like the idea of the random list generation though.

I might try this next time I play my nephew (he always takes the falcon).