Much like endless Inquisitor Necromunda fusion the core roblemof adapting Necromunda is one of emphasis.

Do you want an RPG set in the hive and underhive of Necromunda or just to roleplay a series of skirmishes which happen to be on Necromunda?

I personally would prefer the former. Gangs are the thing that draws people into the setting but they aren`t all that is there just read some kal jericho there are plenty of movers and shakers without house affiliations.

I think freelance scummers (that is underhive dwellers with no house or gang affiliation) are more suitable as a starting point in an RPG as they have no overhanging structure theat predefines them not do they have the headache of trying to translate tabletop archetypes into player paths.

I propose a modular system like regiment creation but on an individual basis. I don`t have myruebbok in frontof me but I`l give it a start.

All characters are created classlessly and have these starting assets.

20 +d10 base statblock

Tech familiarity (+10 on everyday Tech Use tests eg. changing a glowbulb, charging a powercell or rewiring a power outlet)

Weapon training: low tech

100 guilder creds

aptitudes: General. Fellowship

First you determine where players are from in the hive for base additional aptitudes

Spirer + Intelligence, Willpower and Finesse

City dweller + Tougness, Weapon Skill and Tech

Underthiver + Perception, Ballistic Skill and Offence

Then you determine the reason they came to homeless scum

Bounty on head + 50 creds, enemy (pick one)

Adventurer`s Itch + common quality stub auto, knife

and so on.

Gang may not be all that exists in Necromunda, but they're what I personally find the most interesting, and they feature a clearer goal than the "do what you want" approach of playing freelance Scummers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely convinced a game focused on Scum (as opposed to a gang game also allowing Scum) would work just as well - it's just something I'd not be as hyped about, so for my own suggestions I'll probably focus on gangs.

Maybe it'll be possible to create two compatible projects with different goals but sharing the same foundation (class perks, item cost, etc)? It'd make it easier for any players to modify it to whatever they want to do later on.

Cost- in Necromunda they are more expensive than Plasma Pistols (!), which makes them more rare than their Common availability would indicate.

lol - okay! Though I'd say this screams "balancing" rather than actual cost, much like with the heavy stubber.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Juves just wouldn't work as a PC option ("You can play a Ganger, or you can play a much less powerful Junior Ganger- both good choices!"). Heck, look at all the complaints about the low starting power level of Acolytes in DH1 - and a Rank 1 Acolyte would be a pillar of competence compared to a Necro Juve...

Well, it's a matter of preferences and interpretation. Like I said, I wouldn't see the PC as the average Juve but rather a Prodigy, whose inclusion into the group makes for more variety amongst the characters and opens up specialised options that would otherwise be barred.

A PC Juve might just be exceptionally talented, so much so that in a couple years he or she would actually be better than the older Gangers in the group are now . The trouble is getting there, as they still lack experience and respect. A raw gem that needs grinding!

Ideas that came to me last night (for some reason just as I was lying down):

- Let this Juve suck in all areas, but give them superior Agility/Speed and choose either WS or BS to be equal to Ganger

- Give them an additional Reaction or have attackers suffer a -10 penalty hitting them

- Carrying Capacity should be significantly lower than the Ganger's, limiting their ability to adapt

And, as previously suggested, Skills/Talents useful for sneaking and stealing.

Juves like these could be the kid sniper who can barely carry their rifle, but can hit an enemy's eye over a hundred meters. Or the nimble brat who, in the confusion of all-out gang warfare, somehow manages to slip past enemy lines (using passages too narrow for adults) only to stab someone in the back with their knife. Or ... well, I still like the idea of a 'nade runner.

Oh, one thing I just noticed: Heavies are typically equipped with either a Heavy or a Special weapon- they aren't limited to Heavy weapons as their 'primary' armament.

Looking over my list again, I noticed I completely left out Special Weapons as starting equipment for anyone...

Yes. Mentally add this to the Heavy's selection, please!

Much like endless Inquisitor Necromunda fusion the core roblemof adapting Necromunda is one of emphasis.

Do you want an RPG set in the hive and underhive of Necromunda or just to roleplay a series of skirmishes which happen to be on Necromunda?

I personally would prefer the former. Gangs are the thing that draws people into the setting but they aren`t all that is there just read some kal jericho there are plenty of movers and shakers without house affiliations.

I think freelance scummers (that is underhive dwellers with no house or gang affiliation) are more suitable as a starting point in an RPG as they have no overhanging structure theat predefines them not do they have the headache of trying to translate tabletop archetypes into player paths.

That seems kind of bland to me. De-emphasizing the distinctions between Houses and downplaying gang warfare in the lawless Underhive neuters the distinctive 'feel' of Necromunda , in my opinion.

But taste is subjective. If that's the kind of game you want, have at it! There's really no need to make up new rules- you can play a group of shady characters wandering around a hive city with the unaltered Dark Heresy rules- just drop any reference to the Inquisition.

I`m just making the point that it`s far more interesing to build your own criminal empire in the underhive than to be a footsoldier in somebody else`s wih little or no chance of anything but dying facedown in a pool of oil and blood.

Also a Scummer can be from one of the houses, he can even be one of the many archetypes that isn`t covered by "gang member" he even can join a gang (like gangers and heavies hired in the late campaign) but the key thing is HE DOES`NT HAVE TO. He can live life as an enforcer, bounty hunter, scap prospector, hired gun, heretek, information broker or a drug runner in the ever shifting frontiers of Necromundan gang warfare.

A game about initially unaligned underhivers can emcompass joiners and freelancers, as the mechanisms that support them (i.e. violence and the merchant`s guild) are identical, the only real difference is gangs have a boss and a set allies and enemies you haven`t had to earn yourself.

A single rulest works for both. Just because TT conventions understandably defined the necromunda rulebook doesn`t mean a Necromundan RPG has be constrained by them too. A classless freeform game using the aptitudes system allows strict gang war recreation (OW in a hive with a freeform regiment setup) and rambling firefly-style smalltimers to coexist in the in the same hive.

Allthat really needs to be done is a set of modular character creation packages to define starting aptitudes and are balancing of the trading mechanics for a non-military situation.I think hard creds are the best way to go attainment-wise and obvious availaility tweaks (most notably the Necromunda pattern lasgun as to be welcomed back in out of the cold.)

I`m just making the point that it`s far more interesing to build your own criminal empire in the underhive than to be a footsoldier in somebody else`s wih little or no chance of anything but dying facedown in a pool of oil and blood.

Eh ... matter of opinion. That's kind of like saying "Only War sucks because you only get to do the epic stuff in Deathwatch".

Both approaches have their own advantages, catering to different tastes.

A game about initially unaligned underhivers can emcompass joiners and freelancers, as the mechanisms that support them (i.e. violence and the merchant`s guild) are identical, the only real difference is gangs have a boss and a set allies and enemies you haven`t had to earn yourself.

Well, a game about gangs should also encompass mechanics to simulate gang life and economy - though from what you've said, it sounds as if you would want to make it available as an option to freelancers as well?

Regarding allies and enemies, though, it probably should be said that the few big houses are certainly not the only factions in the underhive. There's bound to be many smaller groups active only in a single area, from merchant unions to hab-squatters to even the ordinary population, which all have to either be oppressed or courted as individual assets. This is where a PC team of gangers could gain a certain level of authority when the group's Leader acts as a lieutenant for the house leadership, securing deals and generally making sure that his or her part of the turf keeps running smoothly.

I'm no expert on gangs, but I believe this is how it works in real life, too.

A single rulest works for both.

If it can encompass all the necessary mechanics and does not promote one game style over another, I'd be all for it.

(most notably the Necromunda pattern lasgun as to be welcomed back in out of the cold.)

Given how the normal lasgun is capable of Semi-Auto fire in FFG's games, should this mean the Necromunda-pattern can do Full-Auto bursts? (like, S/2/4 perhaps?)

The Necromunda pattern lasgun was created because the Mars pattern (the closest thing to a galactic standard issue) is a bog-standard single shotter.

The fact that the "standard" lasgun has a semi value then maybe we should adjust it up.

It wasn't meant to be a fire-hose just a more aeffective supression weapon, a semi value is best maybe invent a "Necromunda pattern" modification should be made available to allow a lasweapon (pistol or basic) to gain semi 2 and auto 4 but lose single shot capability and reliable.

As I said reworking labyrithine munitorum requisitions into labyrinthine guild connections and importing BC classless system is easy enough (Bypass regiment homeworld and spec in favor of a house and history.)

I believe that the aptitudes system and the OW systems inherent balance toward human vs. human combat make OW the perfect starting point.

The problem I see with Semi-Auto is that it's already 2 or 3 on the standard models - pushing it to 4, 5 or even 6 just sounds way too much for a Semi-Auto action, and I'm not sure how this would affect balancing given the different modifiers for SA and FA fire.

That being said ... why not scrap the RAW and adopt the weapon profiles from GW, making the standard lasgun single shot only? I'm biased towards the original material, anyways, and FFG keeps changing their stuff in every game, too.

-And keep in mind that 'Necromunda Lasguns' would be considered Lascarbines in Only War terms, so the M36 probably shouldn't be the baseline that it's scaled to.

Prior to 4th Ed, all Basic Las weapons were called Lasguns; then the plastic Cadian model kit came out, and they needed to justify the distinctly different look of the new guns, so the previous 'short stock' pattern (which includes the vast majority of lasguns depicted up 'til then) was rebranded a carbines.

Hmm, you think so? They're only missing the stock ...

On the other hand, in OW RAW, the only difference to the standard lasgun is a slight reduction in weight and range, so maybe Only War just uses a different terminology. One could literally just take the lascarbine and up the rate of fire ... done!

Still in favour of giving the NP autofire, though, basically turning it into this (fitting for a gang setting, no?).

Actually, tying into my criticism in the Lucius-thread , I'd even go so far as to advocate the following:

Lasguns

Lucius-pattern: S/-/-, 1d10+4 Pen 2, Range 100m, 25 shots

Mars-pattern: S/2/-, 1d10+3 Pen 0, Range 100m, 60 shots

Necromunda-pattern: S/2/4, 1d10+3 Pen 0, Range 75m, 60 shots

Triplex-pattern: S/2/-, 1d10+3 Pen 0, Range 75m, 60 shots

All lasguns have the Reliable perk. Only the Triplex gets a charge slider. I'm aiming to give each gun its own set of advantages here, with the MP (aka M36) being a sort of in-between. For example, the Lucius has a higher overall damage, but much fewer shots and the slowest RoF of all. The expensive Triplex can "copy" its overcharged shots, but it does so at reduced range and even fewer shots (15 vs 25). The Necromunda is somewhat capable of spray-n-pray.

Fluffwise, I'd explain the lower range of the Necromunda with reduced accuracy from the missing stock, whereas with the Triplex, it's an inherent design tradeoff for the modular capacitor and (compared to the Lucius) increased cooling requirements.

It should be noted as a intresting tidbit that the Necromunda pattern is one of only two examples of an unsanctioned adaption becoming an accepted pattern (MK5 power armour being the other.)

It was originally a bodge job created by taking the standard lasgun, disabling many of it`s safety features and causing it to strobe it`s output rapidly. Using this logic it could reasonably be assumed to do less damage and have a shorter range than other patterns (as essentially you are splitting the energy meant for a single stable lasbolt into two or more smaller less stable ones) providing increased rate of fire without too much effect on clip size.What it would do for reliability is another thing entirely.

Personally If were adjsting weapons to fluff I`d start here

Mars pattern s/-/- 1d10+3 E Pen0 100m shots 60 reliable availability common

Necromunda pattern -/2/5 1d10+1 E Pen0 75m shots 50 availability rare

Huh, where's that fluff from?

The suggested profile would make sense in this context - though I'm not sure if the damage is not a wee bit too pitiful. Together with the lack of the Reliable trait (which would seem to conflict with the Necromunda core rulebook's description), it might make the autogun a clearly superior choice in that you'd get more damage, more range, more RoF and the ability to use special ammo. Conversely, the NP profile's only advantage is +20 rounds in the clip. Given the urban environment, you can't even play up supply issues as an argument for las over autoweapons.

Unless we'd also change the profile of the autogun. Or accept that the NP would be the "poor man's autorifle" in that its owners don't have to buy their ammo but can readily recharge their power packs at some semi-public energy source.

Come to think of it, maintaining a steady influx of bullets should probably be a factor. In games of DH etc this tends to be marginalised out of narrative focus and the characters' resources, but in a game about daily life in the underhive, keeping stocked up on bullets should be a thing, with its very own subsection in the trade/economy rules.

The NP being a jury rig? That`d be the nineties, the mars being single shot is from inquisitor (the first game system to define stats for seperate lasgun patterns.)

The reduced damage thing is my own rationalisation of a jury rigged single shot weapon being turned into a burst weapon, namely by divivding the energy into multiple shots, you get twice as many holes in the target but the holes are smaller. it`s entirely a handwavium suggestion seeing as FFG already made standard las have semifire.

Also in response you most definately can play up a supply issue for bullets on Necromunda.As an imperial guard supply planet that churns out thousands and thousands of standard imperial issue gear kit items for the IG (and even some kit for the Imperial Fists) notably neither of them commonly use auto or stub weapons smaller than their heaviest versions.

As such bullets are produced by the merchants guild and the houses themselves from whatever cheap materials come to hand (due to ease of manufacture) bullets are more unpredictable and can be difficult to get hold of in significant quantities whereas the more expensive and reliable chargepacks "go missing" from the manufactoria all the time.

The NP being a jury rig?

Yeah, that - where exactly did you read it? I don't recall having seen the NP being described in that detail, but I'm always on the hunt for interesting fluff (even if I'm picky when it comes to the exact origin).

As such bullets are produced by the merchants guild and the houses themselves from whatever cheap materials come to hand (due to ease of manufacture) bullets are more unpredictable and can be difficult to get hold of in significant quantities whereas the more expensive and reliable chargepacks "go missing" from the manufactoria all the time.

I'm probably affected by gut-feeling here as a lot of my "visual perception of Necromunda" was formed by various outsourced (read: Black Library and Warhammer Monthly) comics, and bullet guns were almost omnipresent there. I'm sure I've spotted a lasgun once or twice, but they seemed in the minority.

That being said, even the Necromunda rulebook only mentioned autopistols and autoguns when talking about the most common weapons in the Underhive. And indeed, for bullets it said:

"Ammunition spares and repair facilities are relatively easy to find throughout the Underhive, and traders always have guns and ammunition for sale."

For shotguns it's even better:

"The ammunition itself is easy to make, and many owners make their own shells."

Necromunda's infrastructure does not exist entirely for the Imperial Guard - I was under the impression that solid projectile weapons are always more common locally, and one of the few reasons the lasgun is favoured by off-world military forces is because they lack the production facilities to easily manufacture ammunition on-site. Yet Necromunda has them, hence a shortage seems unlikely.

That being said, rather than actually limiting the production, having access to said production might be another thing. The Underhive might be compartmentalised into sections with carefully controlled gates checked by the gangs, and depending on where said production sites and merchants are located, one gang might actually be able to cut another off its supply chain? Might be a bit far-fetched, though. Not sure.

It was never very concrete exactly how the Hive worked, beyond the Spire/Midlevel/Underhive thing. I get images of a massive apartment complex with workshops interspersed, and then I also could see the Hive itself being hollow, and the Underhive being full of settlements divided by rivers of sludge and piles of detritus. So either way, who knows?

40k as usual, eh?

It was never very concrete exactly how the Hive worked, beyond the Spire/Midlevel/Underhive thing. I get images of a massive apartment complex with workshops interspersed, and then I also could see the Hive itself being hollow, and the Underhive being full of settlements divided by rivers of sludge and piles of detritus. So either way, who knows?

From the text of Necromunda rulebook I got the impression that at least the Underhive consists of a series of sturdy habitat domes connected by less sturdy transit tunnels. The whole thing tends to collapse under the weight of domes and tunnels built over it, but since the tunnels are more likely to collapse isolated domes are common.

Of course, visualizing that result in a much less spiky hive tower...

Sp waepons and ammo are easy to make yes, but materials are at a premium on a factory world like Necromunda. (remember these are people wo fight to the death to pick through slag outflows for iron deposits.)

That said even if you are able to churn out bullets it still doesn`t outweigh the fact that you can recharge a lasgun`s charge pack at any standard powr outlletor even with exposure to heat or light.

Basically you have cheap unreliable projectile weapons that require frequent ammunition resupply and maintainance or slightly more expensve reliable energy weapons that run off charge packs which can generate free ammo.

As such las weapons are the tool of the pro (like Kal Jericho.) SP weapons are not (as evidenced by Scabbs.) They aren`t even considered military grade weapons until you reach the upper reaches of what is man-portable.

One important distinction is to draw a line between the underhive and the hive city proper they are very different environments and have vastly different access to resources as such gangers (from/ sponsored by the hive city houses) are not typical underhivers, they are well armed paramilitary organisation that assert dominance over the everyday scummer by their vastly superior firepower.

As for artwork and fluff, variation is far more interesting to see and read that everyone having the exact same thing so of course there is going to be mix of weaponry. In the vast majority of the Necromunda fluff we are dealing with the dregs of underhive society those who scrape by on their last few creds most the time, these are precisely the sort of people who`d be buying either the biggest or cheapest gun they can just to have a means to protect themselves regardless of it's effectiveness.

It was never very concrete exactly how the Hive worked, beyond the Spire/Midlevel/Underhive thing. I get images of a massive apartment complex with workshops interspersed, and then I also could see the Hive itself being hollow, and the Underhive being full of settlements divided by rivers of sludge and piles of detritus. So either way, who knows?

From the text of Necromunda rulebook I got the impression that at least the Underhive consists of a series of sturdy habitat domes connected by less sturdy transit tunnels. The whole thing tends to collapse under the weight of domes and tunnels built over it, but since the tunnels are more likely to collapse isolated domes are common.

Of course, visualizing that result in a much less spiky hive tower...

I picture the ancient hive cities growing like coral reefs, with layer built on top of layer, until it becomes too difficult to maintain the infrastructure of the lower levels, and they are abandoned to decay.

There is a historical precedent: the Seattle Underground is a chunk of the city that was simply built over, with the Victorian structures left intact. Nowadays they run tours through the area.

Now, apply that situation to New York City, add some leaking nuclear reactors and toxic sludge, and let it stew for a few thousand years...

I`ve started writing a ruleset for Only Necromunda (whichI will post at some point when I`m not on here through my console.)

I`m using a mix of Necro ed 1 (for costings) and OW for system so far.

Characters are tabula rasa additions to the underhive with individual background is determined by picking one of four origins and point-bought background details using a similar modular system to regiment creation (but per character) complete with advantage and disadvantage pacakges.

Notable points:

All players will be human (abhuman-like options are included in the form of the "big guy" and "little guy" background packages)

Characters will have to spend starting credits to supplement their (intentionally sparse) starting gear.

Item availibilities are being tweaked, this isn`t the Guard, triplex phall is on the other side of the galaxy and you`ll have to make do with local gear.

Credits are back! The logisics system will be used to determine if a character can obtain rare or unavailable items from the merchant`s guild (or black market) but cost will be the deciding factor in item acquisition.

Being a Psyker is a mutation not a job, there will be no specialised psyker archetype.

Characters are not (yet) affiliated to any faction but GMs are free to improvise or offer PCs oppurtunities to join up with factions.

Link as promised still WIP (because... well, hey I'm lazy.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzhtk2aeqymye8g/Only%20Necromunda.doc

I like it, a lot! I think the character creation system is strong and relatively quick. Do the different clothes that the occupations get have different AP? Or are they just flavor, really?

One thing I noticed is there really isn't a leader occupation, something with social skills. Maybe there could be a "Hetman" or "Foreman" class, that would add leadership abilities and social skills?

To answer your question the clothes are just flavor they all fall in the region of common quality clothing.

As for the leader thing you absolutely right there is no leader class. This isn`t the guard and there isn`t a chain of command unless somebody finds one and starts hitting you with it.

The lack of a segeant-type is intentional because I think having an "out of the gate" leader can spoil things somewhat leadership should evolve dynamically in a group, especially a group of disparate underhive wanderers fleeing from the crushng rules and authority of the upper hive and not be an a priori function of what kind of chap you are.

That said if you are burning to lead by dint of meta-game ability and fluff leaves the Trader as the obvious choice with fellowship aptitude and closer ties to the powerful merchant`s guild that other types.

Also it might be worth mentioning that this conversion system is intended for use without comrades (maybe aqcuiring them later like BC minions.)

I`m basically I`m liking the idea behind the BC classless system and hoping to translate it to OW so your starting type is just that where you started out and not a firm definition of your character in the long term.

Do you intend to write up how the monetary system works? Maybe extra talents and traits?

As for the leader thing, I fully understand that this isn't the guard and there is no chain of command. My issue with it was that while there are "archetypes" for a melee character, a shooter, a stealthy person, tech whiz, and trader, there isn't an archetype for a more social style of character.

I feel that is a significant loss, because while OW isn't set up well for social interaction and using social skills, this sort of game can be. I envision somebody who can talk their way out of problems more so than fighting. Just because you are using OW as a base for this write up doesn't mean you have to exclude the social skills aspect.

Maybe the archetype is that of a negotiator, arbitrator, foreman, nobleman, or charming rogue. Just something that can represent a person who doesn't need the barrel of a gun to accomplish what they want.

Well, it sounds like in Askil's rules, that would be the Trader then, as he mentioned?

Do you intend to write up how the monetary system works? Maybe extra talents and traits?

As for the leader thing, I fully understand that this isn't the guard and there is no chain of command. My issue with it was that while there are "archetypes" for a melee character, a shooter, a stealthy person, tech whiz, and trader, there isn't an archetype for a more social style of character.

I feel that is a significant loss, because while OW isn't set up well for social interaction and using social skills, this sort of game can be. I envision somebody who can talk their way out of problems more so than fighting. Just because you are using OW as a base for this write up doesn't mean you have to exclude the social skills aspect.

Maybe the archetype is that of a negotiator, arbitrator, foreman, nobleman, or charming rogue. Just something that can represent a person who doesn't need the barrel of a gun to accomplish what they want.

This is answered in a seperate thread. I would direct future discussion to the dedicated project thread.

Well, it sounds like in Askil's rules, that would be the Trader then, as he mentioned?

And this is the short answer

From the Trader archetype

Aptitudes:

Fellowship

Willpower

Intelligence

Social

Leadership

Job done.

As for the monetary system it's very simple, you get guild credits by looting the environment for commodities, selling items you find, stealing from defeated enemies and completing jobs for NPCs.

You spend them at guild outposts or barter at black market traders. Basic RPG economy.