Yes. I am aware. Unless I'm missing something though, he doesn't give you any more of an angle than a hard turn and boost bank. ~145 degrees and with no stress...so that point isn't really all that good. Of course, the exact spacing isn't the same, but clearly turning almost all the way around without stress isn't really that detrimental to the game since it already exists on every ship that has a hard turn and can take a modification.

I still feel like it shouldn't give a stress. But that's fine. I just won't be running him (and I would have liked to).

That being said, I agree that the stress would be more palatable if he has just been given an EPT.

I wish they just made it so every pilot with PS>4 just got an EPT.

This is partly a repost of mine from another thread, so sorry for that.

I'm not at all impressed with Lorrir. At PS7, or at least being able to have an elite talent, he would have been another story for me (and I would of course pay the points). Right now he's just a pilot with an ability that's mostly useful for reacting, that can only be used against < PS 5 ships. He won't see play on my table.

But that's just opinion. I also made these to derive a clear cut vision of what Lorrir's ability will get you, compared to PTL:

What I personally deduce from this, is that it isn't often that Lorrir has an advantageous position, that PTL will not already get you.

Now add these three factors:

PTL will give you even more options for positioning.

PTL can be used throughout the game, with lots more applications.

PTL stress cost is the same.

You have to admit it does seem kinda silly to come out with an "aces" anything and not have them all have EPTs.

Thanks for the visual, Malmer. Considered Lorrir because he's dirt cheap, but didn't like the EPT thing. He's cheap, but one trick. IMO he'd be worth it if his ability was stress free but his cost was a few points higher.

Just looking at the arcs can be misleading. Lorrir gives you more options that allow you to arc dodge and still fire at an opponent at range 1-2.

He's PS 5, which is mid range, but enough to dance around the ever popular Dagger Squadron Pilots. Against higher PS pilots you need to use your predictive abilities, just like you would with a barrel rolling academy pilot or alpha squadron pilot.

Give Lorrir a chance people!

I can understand not giving Lorrir an EPT for obvious overpowering reasons (VI or PTL) at the current point value. However, I wish that his Ps was higher than 5, Squints rely so heavily on reacting to other pilots actions. Lorrir can't do that and with a good majority of the decent pilots able to move after him he just can't wacky barrel roll into an advantageous position all the time. I would use him more if he had a higher PS and/or an EPT, I'd be willing to pay the point cost for that for sure.

He also seems to be able to "barrel sling" around asteroids quite well, to get the +1 where other ships may not be able to.

Incidentally, I've found hiding behind asteroids much more difficult against the YT. Large base + "easy switch" maneuvering means it aims around them too easily.

Just looking at the arcs can be misleading. Lorrir gives you more options that allow you to arc dodge and still fire at an opponent at range 1-2.

Yes, that's why I added the bases, so you don't just compare arcs, but also placement and direction.

Boost and Lorrir's Barrel Roll with PTL would be a little insane.

Boost and Lorrir's Barrel Roll with PTL would be a little insane.

no because you would then be double stressed, and that would kill you the following round

Exactly.

The point is. He has three knocks against him:

1. Ability causes stress

2. No EPT

3. PS 5 - with a repostioning ability

All these things together are why Lorrir's will likely have no place in any of my squads. Which is unfortunate.

While Lorrir's ability is cool, it's too situational to be truly useful. Against a turret, it's better to have F+E by far. If Lorrir could take an EPT, he would probably be my favorite pilot. I don't mind taking a stress from his ability, it's just that not being able to F+E against opponents whose arc he can't escape is a huge strike against him.

This is partly a repost of mine from another thread, so sorry for that.

I'm not at all impressed with Lorrir. At PS7, or at least being able to have an elite talent, he would have been another story for me (and I would of course pay the points). Right now he's just a pilot with an ability that's mostly useful for reacting, that can only be used against < PS 5 ships. He won't see play on my table.

But that's just opinion. I also made these to derive a clear cut vision of what Lorrir's ability will get you, compared to PTL:

What I personally deduce from this, is that it isn't often that Lorrir has an advantageous position, that PTL will not already get you.

Now add these three factors:

PTL will give you even more options for positioning.

PTL can be used throughout the game, with lots more applications.

PTL stress cost is the same.

Sophistry.

Facing is the most salient feature of Lorrir's ability - and not only on the turn you use Lorrir's barrel roll but on the opportunities created for maneuvers on future turns.

Your entire post is misleading at best.

@Introverdant

Lorrir's has EXACTLY the same facing options as a PtL interceptor.

Your post is rude AND incorrect at best.

Sophistry.

Facing is the most salient feature of Lorrir's ability - and not only on the turn you use Lorrir's barrel roll but on the opportunities created for maneuvers on future turns.

Your entire post is misleading at best.

Not really; don't postulate that people are not able to think for themselves.

People can see this is an isolated comparison, going out from one single current position.

Speaking of informal fallacies. Did you not also consider PTL's 'opportunities created for maneuvers on future turns'?

That marks the end of my attention towards you. Nothing more than endless and meaningless lines of words will come of this.

On the contrary.

Three consecutive turns of playtesting is all it takes to demonstrate how worthless those charts really are.

Try it yourself.

" That marks the end of my attention towards you. Nothing more than endless and meaningless lines of words will come of this."

I think it's pretty obvious who here is being rude and who is not.

You told him that his entire post was intentionally misleading. That's rude. Period.

And you were wrong.

Play testing does not override the facts. I can "play test " Lorrir all day, but he will still never be in a position not reflected on that chart.

Good day sir.

If I've been rude I apologize.

I find it entirely incredible that Lorrir's utility would not be instantly apparent to anyone.

I said good day.

But seriously.

His utility is apparent. It's an absolutely terrific ability - and when I first read it I was impressed by how original it was.

Excellent design.

He just has one too many drawbacks to be actually useful.

He seems to be one of the highest skill cap pilots. Using him right will take practice, a great deal of it. Keep at it, there's a lot that can be done.

This is such an important point about all Interceptors, IMO. I feel like they are competitive, we just have to practice the heck out of them to really learn how to fly them (differently than almost any other ship).

I love the Yorr/Lorrir combo. It went spectacularly for me in the matches I've tried it.

I'm not sure that's legal. In order to use the bank template, Lorrir must be the one to receive the stress token. If Yorr takes the stress, then Lorrir can't use the bank template. Same problem with using Soontir and Yorr.

I know there's a thread that explains it, but this seems like a strange ruling to me. Not arguing the ruling's validity, just pointing out that I find it strange.

Yes. I am aware. Unless I'm missing something though, he doesn't give you any more of an angle than a hard turn and boost bank. ~145 degrees and with no stress...so that point isn't really all that good. Of course, the exact spacing isn't the same, but clearly turning almost all the way around without stress isn't really that detrimental to the game since it already exists on every ship that has a hard turn and can take a modification.

I still feel like it shouldn't give a stress. But that's fine. I just won't be running him (and I would have liked to).

That being said, I agree that the stress would be more palatable if he has just been given an EPT.

I wish they just made it so every pilot with PS>4 just got an EPT.

He just has one too many drawbacks to be actually useful.

That depends, his ability alone is tremendously fun. This game is not designed to cater to just the tournament players, it is for the masses of people who play casually.

Lorrir is certainly useful. He may not be a top tier addition to the tournament lists but that's no reason to just dismiss him out of hand.

This show exactly why his ability is so good. Notice that only with Lorrir ability, you can be behind your initial placement. That is huge, especially considering two important factors not taken into acount in this chart, where you were before and where you are going next.

Take Lorrir, do a 1 sharp turn and then use his ability. Do it again with a PtL interceptor. You can basically shoot behind you with Lorrir, not with PtL. It's almost like doing a 0 K-Turn, that is sick! And on the pic it's not that clear, but the zone where Lorrir can shoot and not the PtL pilot is around 3 inches large, that's a good line covered. And if you think about the next round, you can be in a much before position when in a close dogfight, it should not be dismiss. Think about all the possibility where you can land next turn and you'll realise that he's a hard fighter to lose tail from or to follow.

He plays differently than any other ship, so I can see why some might not like him. I don't think he should be the center piece of your team, but for 23pts, he's a really good filler in an elite squad and one of the best, if not the best flanker. And again, if what's bugging you is the fact that he's PS5, pair him with Vader+Squad Leader. Your opponent will hate you.

Would a stressless Lorrir really be broken? In a world with Vader, Tycho, Keyan, Jake, Turr, and co. the ability to move wonky doesn't seem that much more powerful.

What if he couldn't use the 1Straight for a regular barrel roll, only the 1Bank?

Lorrir would have been fine if his ability didn't cause stress.

There's no reason for it.

Actually, continued us of his ability and the 1 turn is a bit nuts.