I recently played a quest (as the overlord) in which I used kobolds; one of the heroes I played against was Leoric of the Book. My question concerns the "Blasting Rune" and monsters with split. My opponent used Leoric's heroic feat with the blasting rune and was able to take out many a kobold. The issue however is about whether the newly placed kobolds take damage from the blasting rune or not.

The split ability states: When this monster is defeated, replace it with two minions in the closest available empty spaces, ignoring group limits .

The Blasting Rune's ability says: When a monster is defeated during an attack with this weapon, each figure adjacent to the defeated monster suffers 2 hearts .

My opponent said that since this takes place during the heroes' turn, he gets to decide the order in which these things happen (as both of them happen when a monster is defeated). Thus when one of my master kobolds was killed, he was replaced by two minions who each took 2 hearts.

Any thoughts on the validity of this ruling would be well appreciated.

As I said then and there, Follow the golden rule. The triggering condition of both is when a monster is defeated do whatever.

My turn = My decision of the order.

I agree with your opponent and with demoncow on the ruling and the reason behind the ruling.

I agree with your opponent and with demoncow on the ruling and the reason behind the ruling.

Just to clarify, I was his opponent.

To Daemon Cow: Oh snap right again (I am notorious in my group for being a stickler for rules).

Tis true. Demon Cow is my opponent.

Demoncow is correct.

Well, thanks to you all for your comments; you've been quite helpful.

Well, thanks to you all for your comments; you've been quite helpful.

Helpful as always, next time take my word for it.

The split ability states: When this monster is defeated, replace it with two minions in the closest available empty spaces, ignoring group limits .

The Blasting Rune's ability says: When a monster is defeated during an attack with this weapon, each figure adjacent to the defeated monster suffers 2 hearts .

I think I have to disagree with just about everyone here. Not that they are wrong about it being the hero's choice, but that the resolution doesn't work out the way you think if you resolve Split first.

Here's the point everyone is missing: If you resolve split first, the defeated monster is no longer on the board, so the new monsters aren't adjacent to the original target, and technically, the original target is no longer adjacent to ANY other monsters either, so Blasting Rune would be pointless. You can't resolve one partially (place the the new monsters before removing the original one, then trigger blasting rune, then finish split; and even that assumes placing before removing, which is incorrect because FFG has clarified that one creature goes into its original place, then the other is adjacent, and placing before removing would involve having two creatures in the same space in something that isn't a move action); you have to fully resolve one, then the other.

The split ability states: When this monster is defeated, replace it with two minions in the closest available empty spaces, ignoring group limits .

The Blasting Rune's ability says: When a monster is defeated during an attack with this weapon, each figure adjacent to the defeated monster suffers 2 hearts .

I think I have to disagree with just about everyone here. Not that they are wrong about it being the hero's choice, but that the resolution doesn't work out the way you think if you resolve Split first.

Here's the point everyone is missing: If you resolve split first, the defeated monster is no longer on the board, so the new monsters aren't adjacent to the original target, and technically, the original target is no longer adjacent to ANY other monsters either, so Blasting Rune would be pointless. You can't resolve one partially (place the the new monsters before removing the original one, then trigger blasting rune, then finish split); you have to fully resolve one, then the other.

Yes, but also on my turn, I can resolve split before the figure is removed. This means none of the split monsters will be in the original space, but would still suffer the damage.

Yes, but also on my turn, I can resolve split before the figure is removed. This means none of the split monsters will be in the original space, but would still suffer the damage.

That's not how Split works. Split says that the figure is replaced, so removing it is a necessary part of Split. As I mentioned above (though it appears it was as an edit after you posted), it doesn't make sense to Add figures, then Remove the first one. And even if you could (which you can't, see below), the figure would have to be removed as part of Split before you could resolve Blasting Rune. (You can't partially resolve one event and interrupt it with another.)

Here's what FFG said on the matter of Split. Source: http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Descent_Second_Edition_Unofficial_FAQ#toc41

Okay, but if I kill a master kobold, then the minions will still suffer hearts, correct?

But if during the dealing of the hearts from blasting rune, a master kobold is killed, the minions will not be placed until after the damage effect has completed, correct?

Remember that no matter what the resolution of this rules question is, one of the minion kobolds is placed in the space the master was originally. That space is NOT adjacent to the master - a model is not adjacent to itself. So at most one of the replacement minions will be blasted.

On the actual question being debated, I tend to agree with Griton. The blasting rune impacts figures adjacent to the defeated monster. The replacement kobolds are definitionally never adjacent to that monster. They are adjacent to its SPACE, but the blasting rune doesn't target a space, it targets a figure. Therefore, no blast.

Edit: Okay, I am clearly the world's biggest pro-kobold advocate... I need to figure out how to change my picture.

Okay, but if I kill a master kobold, then the minions will still suffer hearts, correct?

If you're referring to the minions spawned from Split due to the master dying from being targeted or affected by Blasting Rune, no. (At least as far as I can tell based on the Rules as Written and FFG's definitions of "replacing" as far as Split is concerned.)

If you're referring to any other minions already on the board before the master Splits, which are also adjacent to that master, then yes.

Barf! I was wrong. Leroy's heroic feat plus blasting rune just got a hell of a lot worse.

...Leroy? Leoric?

Leoric's heroic feat + blasting rune truly does make him worth of the name LEEEEEEEROY!

Leroy = 2 syllables, Leoric = 3.

It's efficient.

Ok trying to wrap my brain around one part of this combo. If Leoric uses his Heroic Feat (Attacks all adjacent figures) with Blasting rune, each figure that was defeated from a result of that attack would trigger the secondary effect of Blasting Rune?

Hopefully I can illustrate this correctly:

Leoric uses Heroic Feat

4 Monsters adjacent to Leoric | 1 in each corner (for simplicity's sake)

Leoric rolls enough hearts and the monsters roll too few shields that all 4 monsters are defeated

Blasting Rune says "...each figure adjacent to the defeated monster suffers 2 hearts" | So Blasting Rune triggers 4 times? (each time from the space of the defeated monster, meaning each corner)

So in the above example... did Leoric just blast himself for 8 Hearts? Since Blasting Rune says "Figure" and not "Monster" he would be affected wouldn't he?

Ok trying to wrap my brain around one part of this combo. If Leoric uses his Heroic Feat (Attacks all adjacent figures) with Blasting rune, each figure that was defeated from a result of that attack would trigger the secondary effect of Blasting Rune?

Hopefully I can illustrate this correctly:

Leoric uses Heroic Feat

4 Monsters adjacent to Leoric | 1 in each corner (for simplicity's sake)

Leoric rolls enough hearts and the monsters roll too few shields that all 4 monsters are defeated

Blasting Rune says "...each figure adjacent to the defeated monster suffers 2 hearts" | So Blasting Rune triggers 4 times? (each time from the space of the defeated monster, meaning each corner)

So in the above example... did Leoric just blast himself for 8 Hearts? Since Blasting Rune says "Figure" and not "Monster" he would be affected wouldn't he?

Yes, he does suffer the damage. I was suicidal and gave him 6.

Barf! I was wrong. Leroy's heroic feat plus blasting rune just got a hell of a lot worse.

So glad I brought this to the forums. Thanks a lot, everyone; you guys are awesome.

Leroy = 2 syllables, Leoric = 3.

It's efficient.

I totally agree with you, Demunk.

Leroy = 2 syllables, Leoric = 3.

It's efficient.

I totally agree with you, Demunk.

How dare you!!! Stow. Haha.