In all seriousness people just need to accept one thing.

You are either Play to Win (PtW) or your are Play for Fun (PfF).

If you are PfF (ie you are using models/upgrades that you like, not exclusively models/upgrades that are good exclusively) then you should not expect to win against someone who is PtW with any amount of regularity. This is the nature of 'The Game'. This is the nature of ALL games.

And you know what? In the current meta red dice are king. He who brings the most red dice will most likely win. This is because FFG have arbitrarily dictated that 1 hour matches are a thing. And because of this RD/pts efficiency is THE thing. That means the TIE Fighter and the Bwing are THE things with everything else being slotted in just to provide sub-meta tricks.

So yes. You can be PfF and try to fight The Thing. Just dont come here crying when you get smashed in the face by a iron girder.

If Red dice were all that mattered YT's and Firesprays wouldn't be useful. But they are. Hell Interceptors would be King as the cheapest 3 dice ship in the game. What people need to accept is that this game is incredibly diverse, but certain options in it need an increase in reliability. That's the problem with ordnance, the problem with Interceptors, and the problem with 2 attack die ships. A ship that is high risk high reward can fail once in a tournament, and dominate for every other game and screw you up. A more stable ship will go down when you expect it to, allowing better planning.

Does anyone other than the originator of this thread actually think there is a problem that needs to be fixed? The game seems really well balanced. Just about any list can beat any list (Maybe not 6 turretless Rebel Ops), with or without ordinance.

Ordinance is just about Risk/Reward. In most cases it's not assured you'll be able to fire them, but when you do, and you use them correctly, they can be devastating. Advanced Proton Torpedoes anyone?

The thing is that most players don't seem to want to tolerate the risks with them. For the same reason that all interceptors lists are a lot of fun, you don't see them too often in tournaments. Ints are high risk in that a single run of weak green dice can end your game, and essentially your tournament. But, with just average green dice, an all int list is really deadly, but you just can't count on it.

A lot of players want a much flatter risk curve. A flatter risk curve puts responsibility in winning on the pilots flying ability.

The game is fine, there doesn't really seem to be a reason to have a discussion about a totally unneeded fix?

Maybe Frazio just hates BWings and loves missiles, and wants the game to suit his style of play more. I guess I get it, but if we did what he wanted, ordinance would become a no brainer, you'd almost always have to include them somehow on every list.

The game is great. Each decision is difficult. Do I go with Rookies, or spend the points on Reds? Do I put Chewie on the Falcon with Han? Do I spend the 2 points to give Turr VI? Do I give Howlrunner Stealth device, or use those points to upgrade an academy tie to a named tie? There aren't many no brainer decisions here. Each one is difficult and has pros/cons. To me that's a brilliant game. Let's not seriously discuss rule changes that would essentially force every list to include something, that would be very sad.

In all seriousness people just need to accept one thing.

You are either Play to Win (PtW) or your are Play for Fun (PfF).

If you are PfF (ie you are using models/upgrades that you like, not exclusively models/upgrades that are good exclusively) then you should not expect to win against someone who is PtW with any amount of regularity. This is the nature of 'The Game'. This is the nature of ALL games.

And you know what? In the current meta red dice are king. He who brings the most red dice will most likely win. This is because FFG have arbitrarily dictated that 1 hour matches are a thing. And because of this RD/pts efficiency is THE thing. That means the TIE Fighter and the Bwing are THE things with everything else being slotted in just to provide sub-meta tricks.

So yes. You can be PfF and try to fight The Thing. Just dont come here crying when you get smashed in the face by a iron girder.

You missed one. Play for challenge. Technically you missed a lot. Play to Troll. Play to bond. Play to dominate. Play to alieve boredom. All of those are just as valid as fun or winning.

If Red dice were all that mattered YT's and Firesprays wouldn't be useful. But they are. Hell Interceptors would be King as the cheapest 3 dice ship in the game. What people need to accept is that this game is incredibly diverse, but certain options in it need an increase in reliability. That's the problem with ordnance, the problem with Interceptors, and the problem with 2 attack die ships. A ship that is high risk high reward can fail once in a tournament, and dominate for every other game and screw you up. A more stable ship will go down when you expect it to, allowing better planning.

...

Play to Win or Play for Fun covers all that.

Does anyone other than the originator of this thread actually think there is a problem that needs to be fixed? The game seems really well balanced. Just about any list can beat any list (Maybe not 6 turretless Rebel Ops), with or without ordinance.

Ordinance is just about Risk/Reward. In most cases it's not assured you'll be able to fire them, but when you do, and you use them correctly, they can be devastating. Advanced Proton Torpedoes anyone?

The thing is that most players don't seem to want to tolerate the risks with them. For the same reason that all interceptors lists are a lot of fun, you don't see them too often in tournaments. Ints are high risk in that a single run of weak green dice can end your game, and essentially your tournament. But, with just average green dice, an all int list is really deadly, but you just can't count on it.

A lot of players want a much flatter risk curve. A flatter risk curve puts responsibility in winning on the pilots flying ability.

The game is fine, there doesn't really seem to be a reason to have a discussion about a totally unneeded fix?

Maybe Frazio just hates BWings and loves missiles, and wants the game to suit his style of play more. I guess I get it, but if we did what he wanted, ordinance would become a no brainer, you'd almost always have to include them somehow on every list.

The game is great. Each decision is difficult. Do I go with Rookies, or spend the points on Reds? Do I put Chewie on the Falcon with Han? Do I spend the 2 points to give Turr VI? Do I give Howlrunner Stealth device, or use those points to upgrade an academy tie to a named tie? There aren't many no brainer decisions here. Each one is difficult and has pros/cons. To me that's a brilliant game. Let's not seriously discuss rule changes that would essentially force every list to include something, that would be very sad.

You are either Play to Win (PtW) or your are Play for Fun (PfF).

If you are PfF (ie you are using models/upgrades that you like, not exclusively models/upgrades that are good exclusively) then you should not expect to win against someone who is PtW with any amount of regularity. This is the nature of 'The Game'. This is the nature of ALL games.

And you know what? In the current meta red dice are king. He who brings the most red dice will most likely win. This is because FFG have arbitrarily dictated that 1 hour matches are a thing. And because of this RD/pts efficiency is THE thing. That means the TIE Fighter and the Bwing are THE things with everything else being slotted in just to provide sub-meta tricks.

So yes. You can be PfF and try to fight The Thing. Just dont come here crying when you get smashed in the face by a iron girder.

I can't say I disagree with most of what you're saying, but I would add that 1 hour matches aren't necessarily arbitrary. Tournaments take long enough with the time limit, and 75 minutes is close enough to the norm imposed by other competitive games.

You are either Play to Win (PtW) or your are Play for Fun (PfF).

If you are PfF (ie you are using models/upgrades that you like, not exclusively models/upgrades that are good exclusively) then you should not expect to win against someone who is PtW with any amount of regularity. This is the nature of 'The Game'. This is the nature of ALL games.

And you know what? In the current meta red dice are king. He who brings the most red dice will most likely win. This is because FFG have arbitrarily dictated that 1 hour matches are a thing. And because of this RD/pts efficiency is THE thing. That means the TIE Fighter and the Bwing are THE things with everything else being slotted in just to provide sub-meta tricks.

So yes. You can be PfF and try to fight The Thing. Just dont come here crying when you get smashed in the face by a iron girder.

I can't say I disagree with most of what you're saying, but I would add that 1 hour matches aren't necessarily arbitrary. Tournaments take long enough with the time limit, and 75 minutes is close enough to the norm imposed by other competitive games.

1 hour games will be fine IF there were a limit on how long a player can take on their individual phases. Because players can theoretically take infinite time on their phases its a bit ridiculous.

You are either Play to Win (PtW) or your are Play for Fun (PfF).

If you are PfF (ie you are using models/upgrades that you like, not exclusively models/upgrades that are good exclusively) then you should not expect to win against someone who is PtW with any amount of regularity. This is the nature of 'The Game'. This is the nature of ALL games.

And you know what? In the current meta red dice are king. He who brings the most red dice will most likely win. This is because FFG have arbitrarily dictated that 1 hour matches are a thing. And because of this RD/pts efficiency is THE thing. That means the TIE Fighter and the Bwing are THE things with everything else being slotted in just to provide sub-meta tricks.

So yes. You can be PfF and try to fight The Thing. Just dont come here crying when you get smashed in the face by a iron girder.

I can't say I disagree with most of what you're saying, but I would add that 1 hour matches aren't necessarily arbitrary. Tournaments take long enough with the time limit, and 75 minutes is close enough to the norm imposed by other competitive games.

1 hour games will be fine IF there were a limit on how long a player can take on their individual phases. Because players can theoretically take infinite time on their phases its a bit ridiculous.

1 hour games will be fine IF there were a limit on how long a player can take on their individual phases. Because players can theoretically take infinite time on their phases its a bit ridiculous.

That's what judges / TOs are for. If this forum is a sample of the X-Wing community at large, most people don't have enough exposure to the competitive setting to be comfortable with asking someone to arbitrate for them. That having been said, deliberate stalling is a big no-no, and I don't feel like the time limit should be tweaked to accommodate lax enforcement of the rules.

1 hour games will be fine IF there were a limit on how long a player can take on their individual phases. Because players can theoretically take infinite time on their phases its a bit ridiculous.

Players can't take as long as they like in a sanctioned tournament setting. Doing so is slow play or possibly stalling. Slow players should be given a warning or two before further action is taken against them.

TOs have the power to disqualify players who are cheating. Stalling is cheating.

In all seriousness people just need to accept one thing.

You are either Play to Win (PtW) or your are Play for Fun (PfF).

If you are PfF (ie you are using models/upgrades that you like, not exclusively models/upgrades that are good exclusively) then you should not expect to win against someone who is PtW with any amount of regularity. This is the nature of 'The Game'. This is the nature of ALL games.

And you know what? In the current meta red dice are king. He who brings the most red dice will most likely win. This is because FFG have arbitrarily dictated that 1 hour matches are a thing. And because of this RD/pts efficiency is THE thing. That means the TIE Fighter and the Bwing are THE things with everything else being slotted in just to provide sub-meta tricks.

So yes. You can be PfF and try to fight The Thing. Just dont come here crying when you get smashed in the face by a iron girder.

You missed one. Play for challenge. Technically you missed a lot. Play to Troll. Play to bond. Play to dominate. Play to alieve boredom. All of those are just as valid as fun or winning.

If Red dice were all that mattered YT's and Firesprays wouldn't be useful. But they are. Hell Interceptors would be King as the cheapest 3 dice ship in the game. What people need to accept is that this game is incredibly diverse, but certain options in it need an increase in reliability. That's the problem with ordnance, the problem with Interceptors, and the problem with 2 attack die ships. A ship that is high risk high reward can fail once in a tournament, and dominate for every other game and screw you up. A more stable ship will go down when you expect it to, allowing better planning.

...

Play to Win or Play for Fun covers all that.

And you know what? In the current meta red dice are king. He who brings the most red dice will most likely win. This is because FFG have arbitrarily dictated that 1 hour matches are a thing. And because of this RD/pts efficiency is THE thing. That means the TIE Fighter and the Bwing are THE things with everything else being slotted in just to provide sub-meta tricks.

FFG hasn't actually done that; they've dictated that tournament matches should take 75 minutes, but can take as few as 60 or as many as 90 minutes. That's [counting on fingers] 25-50% longer than an hour.

And Aminar is right that, if "RD/pts efficiency is the thing", there ought to be a lot of other ships ahead of, or at least tied with, the TIE Fighter and B-wing: you're neglecting the Interceptor, X-wing, and Lambda. Moreover, the Firespray and Falcon would never appear, since their offensive efficiency is fairly weak.

Moreover, how does an upgrade like Advanced Sensors, which is in the process of changing the game, contribute to "RD/pts efficiency"? Why are over 40% of ships among Store Championship winners named pilots--since every point spent over the minimum baseline degrades your "RD/pts efficiency"?

MajorJuggler's suggestion is one good example of how to fix an individual ship:

Factory Munitions (0 points)

Modification. TIE Bomber only.

All Missiles and Torpedoes equipped on this ship have their cost reduced by 1.

However, this fix competes with Munitions Failsafe for the Modification slot. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I personally think that is a good thing, because it forces the player to make design choices. Variety is good, and the alternative is more likely to be overpowered. This is assuming, of course, that the "Factory Munitions" card is not overpowered in and of itself.

Moreover, how does an upgrade like Advanced Sensors, which is in the process of changing the game, contribute to "RD/pts efficiency"? Why are over 40% of ships among Store Championship winners named pilots--since every point spent over the minimum baseline degrades your "RD/pts efficiency"?

Minor clarification, it is 40% of points spent on named pilots, not on the actual number of ships. I think you meant that, and doesn't really change your point. I just wanted to avoid any confusion for anyone else reading.