Back Story: Player A wants to play a Space Marine Scout who was injured so badly that he could no longer wear the black carapace, and rather than being interred into a Dreadnought, was permitted to go to the Officio Assassinorum to become a Vindicare Assassin.

My questions:

1. Space Marines, once they get the black carapace installed, cannot have it removed without being dead right?

2. Scouts don't have black carapace's, right?

3. Assuming a Space Marine was so injured that the only option was Dreadnought or _________, could the "or" even be considered something as deadly as a Vindicare Assassin? Seems a bit of an insult to Vindicare Assassins to me. I mean, "well you're too injured to be a Space Marine, but we have and Assassin costume for you..."

4. Isn't internment into a Dreadnought for full Space Marines who have done something highly honorable, not Scouts, even if they have done something honorable?

5. Would any self respecting Space Marine, Scout or otherwise, ever want to switch up and join the inquisition as anything other than a Space Marine?

Just looking for some insight before I make a final decision on this one.

Thanks in advance.

decanblue said:

1. Space Marine Scouts do not have Black Carapace. They only earn that after becoming a full-fledged marine.

2. Right

3. The way the assassin temples work is that they round up children who look as though they're promising candidates (obsessively violent for Eversor, insanely patient for Vindicare, natural born liars for Callidus, and blanks for Culexus). They're then put into a small ship with all manner of dangers (basically a death world with rocket jets) and those that survive are then trained to be assassins.

4. You're absolutely correct here. Dreadnought interment is only for heroes of the chapter.

5. There is precedence with marines joining the Inquisition as something other than Space Marines (See Ian Watson's masterpiece, Inquisition War). *HOWEVER* they're still basically space marines, it's just that they're not running around boldly declaring that yes, indeed, they are Space Marines.

I'd say deny him the right to do this. Truth be known, any assassin officially trained by the Officio Assassorium would be *FAR* more powerful than a simple Acolyte. These guys are the type who murder off alien Warlords of banish greater daemons back to hell. There's also the wee issue that the deployment of an assassin must be approved by a majority of the Imperial Senate and/or Highlords (which is why generally the Inquisitor Highlord is either a very strong and well connected Inquisitor *OR* a weak one who the bigger/older ones can bully into passing their decisions).

A space marine who is injured either dies, get bionics, or goes in a dreadnought. No chapter ever lets anyone leave, because they all carry the gene seed. The gene seed is extracted when a Marine dies so they can make more marines. And an assassin is trained from birth/really early childhood.

Here is the process of making a marine:

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Non-Invasive Treatments
Chemical Treatment - Until his initiation, a Marine must submit to constant tests and examinations. The newly implanted organs must be monitored very carefully, imbalances corrected, and any sign of maldevelopment treated. This chemical treatment is reduced after completion of the initiation process, but it never ends. Marines undergo periodic treatment for the rest of their lives in order to maintain a stable metabolism. Marine power armour suits contain monitoring equipment and drug dispensers to aid in this.

Hypnotherapy - As the super-enhanced body grows, the recipient must learn how to use his new abilities. Some of the implants, specifically the phase 6 and 10 implants, can only function once correct hypnotherapy has been administered. Hypnotherapy is not always as effective as chemical treatment, but it can have substantial results. If a Marine can be taught how to control his own metabolism, his dependence on drugs is lessened. The process is undertaken in a machine called a Hypnomat. Marines are placed in a state of hypnosis and subjected to visual and aural stimuli in order to awaken their minds to their unconscious metabolic processes.

Training - Physical training stimulates the implants and allows them to be tested for effectiveness.

Indoctrination - Just as their bodies receive 19 separate implants, so their minds are altered to release the latent powers within. These mental powers are, if anything, more extraordinary than even the physical powers described above. For example, a Marine can control his senses and nervous system to a remarkable degree, and can consequently endure pain that would kill an ordinary man. A Marine can also think and react at lightning speeds. Memory training is an important part of the indoctrination too. Some Marines develop photographic memories. Obviously, Marines vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary in degree.

Implantation

Phase 1 - Secondary Heart- This simplest and most self-sufficient of implants allows a Space Marine to survive his other heart being damaged or destroyed, and to survive in low oxygen environments. Not just a back-up, the secondary heart can boost the blood-flow around the Marine's body.2

Phase 2 - Ossmodula - A small, tubular and complex organ, the ossmodula secretes hormones that both affect the ossification of the skeleton and encourage the forming bone growths to absorb ceramic-based chemicals that are laced into the Marine's diet.2 This heavily alters the way the Space Marine's bones grow and develop. Two years after this implant is first put in the subject's long bones will have increased in size (along with most other bones) and the rib cage will have been fused into a solid mass of bulletproof, interlocking plates.

Phase 3 - Biscopea - This small, circular organ is inserted into the chest cavity and releases hormones that vastly increase muscle growth throughout the marine's body. It also serves to form the hormonal basis for many of the later implants.

Phases 1-3 can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 10 and 14 years of age.2
Phase 4 - Haemastamen - Implanted into the main circulatory system, this tiny implant not only increases the haemoglobin content of the subjects blood, making it more efficient at carrying oxygen around the body and making the subject's blood a bright red, it also serves to monitor and control the actions of the phase 2 and phase 3 implants.2

Phase 5 - Larraman's Organ - A liver-shaped organ about the size of a golf-ball, this implant is placed within the chest cavity and connected to the circulatory system. It generates and controls 'Larraman cells' which are released into the blood stream if the recipient is wounded. They attach themselves to leucocytes in the blood and are are carried to the site of the wound, where upon contact with air they form a near instant patch of scar tissue, sealing any wounds the Space Marine may suffer.

Phases 4 and 5 can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 12 and 14 years of age.2
Phase 6 - Catalepsean Node - Implanted into the back of the brain, this pea-sized organ influences the circadian rhythms of sleep and the body's response to sleep deprivation. If deprived of sleep, the catalepsean node cuts in. The node allows a Marine to sleep and remain awake at the same time by switching off areas of his brain sequentially. This process cannot replace sleep entirely, but increases the Marines survivability by allowing perception of the environment while resting2. This means that a Space Marine needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day, and can potentially go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all.

Hypnotherapy normally begins at this point in the process, ideally sometime between 14 and 17 years of age.2
Phase 7 - Preomnor - This is essentially a pre-stomach that can neutralise otherwise poisonous or indigestible foods. No actual digestion takes place in the preomnor, as it acts as a decontamination chamber placed before the natural stomach in the body's system and can be isolated from the rest of the digestive tract in order to contain particularly troublesome intake.2

Phase 8 - Omophagea - This implant allows a Space Marine to 'learn by eating'. It is situated in the spinal cord but is actually part of the brain. Four nerve bundles are implanted connecting the spine and the stomach wall. Able to 'read' or absorb genetic material consumed by the marine, the omophagea transmits the gained information to the Marine's brain as a set of memories or experiences. It is the presence of this organ which is responsible for the various flesh-eating and blood-drinking rituals for which certain Marine Chapters are famous, as well as giving names to chapters such as the Blood Drinkers and Flesh Tearers. Over time, mutations in this implant have given some chapters unnatural craving for blood or flesh.2

Phase 9 - Multi-lung - This additional lung activates when a Space Marine needs to breathe in low-oxygen or poisoned atmospheres, and even water. The natural lungs are closed off by a sphincter muscle associated with the multi-lung and the implanted organ takes over breathing operations. It has highly efficient toxin dispersal systems.2

Phases 7 to 9 are normally introduced simultaneously, ideally at a point between 14 and 16 years old. The following series of organs are also ideally implanted between the ages of 14 and 16.2
Phase 10 - Occulobe - This implant sits at the base of the brain, and provides hormonal and genetic stimuli which enable a Marine's eyes to respond to optic-therapy. This in turn allows the Apothecaries to make adjustments to the growth patterns of the eye and the light-receptive retinal cells - the result being that Space Marines have far superior vision to normal humans, and can see in low-light conditions almost as well as in daylight.2

Phase 11 - Lyman's Ear - Not only does this implant make a Space Marine immune from dizziness or motion sickness but also allows Space Marines to consciously filter out and enhance certain sounds. The Lyman's Ear completely replaces a Marine's original ear. It is externally indistinguishable from a normal human ear.

Phase 12 - Sus-an Membrane - Initially implanted above the brain, this membrane eventually merges with the recipient's entire brain. Ineffective without follow-up chemical therapy and training, but with sufficient training a Space Marine can use this implant to enter a state of suspended animation, consciously or as an automatic reaction to extreme trauma, keeping the Marine alive for years, even if he has suffered otherwise mortal wounds. Only the appropriate chemical therapy or auto-suggestion can revive a Marine from this state. The longest recorded period spent in suspended animation was undertaken by Brother Silas Err of the Dark Angels, who was revived after 567 years.2 It should also be noted that Talonmaster Zso Sahaal of the Night Lord's legion spent nearly ten thousand years in suspended animation when his ship was entombed in the warp by the Eldar, however time in his ship may not have passed at the same rate as in normal space.

Phase 13 - Melanochrome - This implant controls the amount of melanin in a Marine's skin. Exposure to high levels of sunlight will result in the Marine's skin darkening to compensate. It also protects the Marine from other forms of radiation.2

Phase 14 - Oolitic Kidney - In conjunction with the secondary heart this implant allows a Space Marine to filter his blood very quickly, rendering him immune to most poisons. This action comes at a price, however, as this emergency detoxification usually renders the Marine unconscious while his blood is circulated at high speed. The organ's everyday function is to monitor the entire circulatory system and allow other organs to function effectively.2

Phase 15 - Neuroglottis - This enhances a Space Marine's sense of taste to such a high degree that he can identify many common chemicals by taste alone. A Marine can even track down his target by taste.

Phases 14 and 15 may be introduced at the same time, ideally between 15 and 16 years of age. The remaining series of implants are then ideally introduced to the recipient between the ages of 16 and 18.2
Phase 16 - Mucranoid - This implant allows a Space Marine to sweat a substance that coats the skin and offers resistance to extreme heat and cold and can even provide some protection for the marine in a vacuum. This can only be activated by outside treatment, and is common when Space Marines are expected to be fighting in vacuum.

Phase 17 - Betcher's Gland - Consists of two identical glands, implanted either into the lower lip, alongside the salivary glands or into the hard palette. The gland works in a similar way to the poison gland of venomous reptiles by synthesizing and storing deadly poison, which the Marines themselves are immune to due to the gland's presence. This allows a Space Marine to spit a blinding contact poison, which is also corrosive enough to eat through iron bars.

Phase 18 - Progenoids - There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck and the other within the chest cavity. These take time (5 years in the first case, 10 in the latter)2 to mature into gene-seed. The gene-seed can then be extracted and used to create more Space Marines.

Phase 19 - Black Carapace - The most distinctive implant, it resembles a film of black plastic that is implanted directly beneath the skin of the Marine's torso in sheets. It hardens on the outside and sends invasive neural bundles into the Marine's body. After the organ has matured the recipient is then fitted with neural sensors and interface points cut into the carapace's surface.2 This allows a Space Marine to interface directly with his Power Armour.

After all of these implantations and alterations to the human body, there is a serious debate whether or not Space Marines are human. While they indubitably serve humanity, they are at least two meters tall, can breathe poison and eat through metal.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Carapace

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They are very very far from human. As a scout would be 1 step or so away from a marine, but just unproven in battle.

At best he could have gone through a marine initiation, found that he had rejected the seed/process, but been picked up by an assassin organization because of his talent (marines start this process at boys who probably havent hit puberty).

Scouts receive their black carapace last, so that they become fullyfledged marines afterwards.

The geneseed can be extracted after several years of implantation, they don't have to be extracted at death (makes it a little too risky). The lattest an organ is implanted is ~19 years of age, so the black carapace is given to a marine extremely early on.

There is nothing stopping a scout from staying a scout until he is 50 with a fully functioning black carapace.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Ah k, I was reading up on apothecaries, and yeah, they remove them after 5 and 10 years, but the apothecary has to collect them from marines who die before that time.

Also not all Chapters have access to all inplants any more with the seed to some organs bing lost over time (Betcher's Gland is lost to the Imperial Fists and many other "Fist" chapters), organs seeds from other chapters are not compatable as they come from diffrent Primarchs, or have Geneticaly Drifted over the Melenum, but their is reports of cloasaly related Chapters (decended from the one Primarch) being able to renew lost organs to their Cousins from time to time, if their hasn't bean too much drift.

I'm sorry and no offence intended, but it is really just a retarded back story. As has been mentioned the training process for an Officio Assassin and a Marine are mutually exclusive as they have to hapen at the same time and they are not similar in the slightest. An Assassin recieves his own set of implants and very specialised training which starts at a young age. They are not failed marines. A scout that was to badly infujured to become a marine would have no chance as an Assassin.

The use of Officio Assassorium opratives must first be approved by the High Lords of Terra as they are an increadibly rare and valuable resource and insanely dangerous in the wrong hands. The dont just join Acolyte groups, they work alone. This guy just seems to want to play an overpowered character and chuck in as many kewl things as possible into their backstory.

The closest alternative is from DoW2 which is Cyrus, a scout sergeant who was previously a member of the Deathwatch. He would be a full marine wearing carapace armour and could be a sniper specialist in the Death Watch but this would require the story to heavily revolve around that characters mission as, being a marine he would have no interest in anything else. If you were prepared to go down this route then IMO the best possibility would be to have the team investigate the disappearance of the Death Watch team from a planet only to be confronted by the last remaining member which is the player.

I would advise against it though as it is severly limiting on your campaign as you have to write all missions leading to 1 specific goal (because afterwords the character will have to leave to return to his chapter) and your group has to be puritan Ordo Xenos. The threat also has to be big enough to warrent the use of a Death Watch kill team. You also limit any social interactions that might be otherwise possible as a member of the Death Watch sticks out in any social situation.

Its your campaign of course and you could just ignore the background but I tend to take the view that I am playing a 40K RPG for a reason and this idea really is just ignoring the background for the sake of it. When areas are grey or not really defined then it usually fine to take an alternative view on the Universe but in this case it is pretty clear cut that the character does not make sense.

Kaihlik

No offence taken. It's not my back story. I was just making sure my assumptions and understanding were correct. After reading all of these responses, I was 99% correct and the 1% I was off is moot as who cares if the gene seed is in or out of this character as it could never have gotten that far to begin with.

Thanks for the input.

He might be able to get away with a marine recruit who washed out of initial training(and by some miracle survived) before getting Geneseed or any implants. He could then have trained as a regular assasin, even as part of an unnofficial assasin order.

He could even be part of an Alias/SD-6 scenario. He believes he was almost a marine when in fact it was simply staged, his assasin temple an unnofficial/fake construct. Maybe its even backed by the Ordo Hereticus far behind the scenes. If he as a player believes his background is real it gives it that much more impact when you start to release clues that all may not be what it seems.

Torquar said:

I broached this idea with the player and he didn't like it. I didn't go into too much detail, but the point was generally the same as you have suggested. I thought it would bring some depth to his character and allow him to develop his personal skills as a player too. In the end, he decided not to show up to the first game and from what I understand is disappointed I didn't see the validity of his request to play a character like this.

I honestly think he believes that a tier one character could be a Vindicare Assassin. In my opinion, the final tier of Assassin skill is the first step to becoming one of the Assassin classes from the Witch Hunters Warhammer 40K game book. Up until then, you're basically in training and being watched to see if you can hack it. The whole game is about mortal men and women, not uber fighting machines doing what they were meant to do.

Oh well, the first game went rather well without a power gamer in the midst of it all. It was basically 3 guys who have only seen the Warhammer 40k game played and have only read a few books of the Horus Heresy and Ibram Gaunt books. The first session, about 3 hours of gaming, was getting the team together and explaining the "world" that they will be gaming in. We stopped as they boarded the ship that they will need to take them on their first mission.

Congrats on the game.

I always groan when the power gamer, on being denied an ultimate munchkin character, strives at least for the "well I'm an uber-badass in my back-story" cop-out.

My best RPG characters all had extremely basic, humble, *human* origins. If there's bad-ass munchkin ascention, then at least my character earned it and rose through the ranks.

Kudos to you for sticking to your guns. The fact that the power gamer pouted and skipped the first session shows that you made the right decision.

The Baron is right on all accounts and I agree with him that this type of character concept is not one that fits within the Dark Heresy game.

Even a space marine scout is far and away more powerful than any human and certainly much more powerful than a starting acolyte.

The assassin in the dark heresy book are not the 4 “super” assassins listed in the DH and WH codex. Those 4 “super” assassins are, much like space marines, far more powerful than the average human having undergone specialized training and, in some cases, cybernetic or pharmacological enhancement.

The lore behind the space marines and WH/DH assassins is very alluring but it doesn’t fit within the Dark Heresy game.

TheFlatline said:

A friend of mine is notorious for that. He wanted to be a level 6 human warrior in D&D. But this character was actually a God and Demon that were fused together, part of an eternal struggle for dominance over the universe, and had both touched the same crystal during an epic fight at the beginning of time, and were fused into the same being. Because of their struggle he is far weaker then he should be, hence the level 6 human, because both constantly use all of their power to keep the other in check.

I have played a few insanely epic backstory characters in my time, and it can be good fun if and only if all the players and the GM agree to the setting and wants to make a completely nutters epic adventure in true Elric style, preferrably with a big dose of irony and distance to the clichés of the genre. Generally I prefer to play more human characters that gets to shine in small ways thanks to being put in special circumstances. It seems like your gaming group (not including the subject of the first post) have pretty much the same vision for what you want and I guess you will very much enjoy playing together. Good job keeping the powergamer on a short leash.

Just to say kudos for not giving in. If he didn't turn up to the first session, sounds like it was his loss.

As the others have said, the Space Marine and Oficio Assassinorium backgrounds are mutually exclusive. In both cases the candidate is taken at a fairly young age to start training. Also the four Imperial level assassins are not the same as the assassin training given in the rule book. Those are assassin training on a local level and far more general than the specialized training of the Imperial assassins.

That being said. There have been cases of Space Marines deserting their chapters on very rare occassions. Though many of them turn to Chaos not all do. However I would think any Inquisitor would be far more likely to kill such a Marine than to employ someone who has shown how untrustworthy they are. A Space Marine is extremely powerful and I personally wouldn't allow one as an Acolyte.

Any Marine trainee that fails out is far more likely to be given an administration or support role in the chapter. Even with just a few implants they are to valuable a resource to just cut loose. Besides all Chapters have need of servitors, logistical support, pilots, and even gunners on their battle barges that can be filled by such people.

Now you could have a back story where someone thought they were getting Space Marine training but were actually the victim of the mad scientist (or Chaos experiments) type. But they would not compare to a true Space Marine. In the end it is up to the GM. However having one overwhelmingly powerful player makes it less fun for the rest of the players who will constantly play second fiddle and can end up at a distinct disadvantage as the GM will likely have to scale up the encounters to make it challenging the high powered player and end up being two difficult for the rest of the group.