Bandit Squadron, 12 points: PS2, 2/2/2/2, Missile

Prototype Pilot, 15 points: PS1, 2/3/2/2, EPT (Forgot the PS req' on Prototype Veteran)

What uses will there be for Headhunters when we have 15-point A-wings? For +3 points you gain an extra agility, which is a pretty huge survivability boost, and lose 1 PS. You also have a dramatically better dial. I think the A-wing is clearly a much better ship, and I'm having a hard time coming up with situations where those 3 points aren't worth it, and then some. So what does that leave for the Headhunter?

- Swarm. Meh. I know a lot of people are excited about this, but lacking barrel roll to help with the maneuvering and in the absence of a Howlrunner-style attack booster, I think the Zwarm is going to be a flop. Throw in only 2 Agility, and it's doomed.

- Cheap missile carriers. Will definitely replace the A-wing in this role.

- Filling in that last ship when you just can't manage to squeeze 3 more points out.

I honestly don't see any other possible role for the Headhunter that the new A-wings wont do better.

And that seems to be pretty much it. It's amusing to me that as a fighter, the A-wing is 3 points "better" (i.e. more expensive) than a Z-95. As a missile carrier, it's 5 points better. That's kind of interesting.

Prototypes can't take an EPT.

Sometimes being 3 points cheaper is a role in itself.

Prototypes can't take an EPT.

D'oh.

Z's may or may not rock the full swarm, but 3-4 ship mini-swarm will be quite common. 1-2 big bruisers with some bodies for blocking and cleanup duty.

Neither can Bandits, if we're comparing baseline ships.

I would agree in general, but Bandits will be easier to use as wingmen (The role not the upgrade) for X-wings and other Rebel ships. Flying an A-wing in formation with any other Rebel ship long term is a waste of points since you are sacrificing it's greatest strength (amazing dial and free boost).

The Headhunter is a grunt to the A-wing's skirmisher, And is a better Alpha strike ship, though a missile A-wing is a better assassin because of its maneuverability and better chance of dodging attacks.

I was referring to the original post:

Bandit Squadron, 12 points: PS2, 2/2/2/2, Missile

Prototype Pilot, 15 points: PS1, 2/3/2/2, EPT

Both will be excellent filler ships, and valid for swarm lists. My math shows the Z-95s should actually be better jousters for their PS1 equivalent cost, but the a-wing dial plus boost is really nice too. Don't forget about PS! 12 point Z is PS2, and 13 point Z is PS4. A wing is 15 and 17 for PS1 and PS3.

I, for one, welcome our new z-95 overlords.

I, for one, welcome our new z-95 overlords.

HAIL ANTS

+ For A-Wing (not stated)

Evade Action

Boost Action

More Pilots (Rebel Aces)

+ For Z-95 (not stated)

Comes out Sooner then Rebel aces

One thing to remember here: A-wings cost an extra three points per ship. These are ships you're likely to have duplicates of, and 6-9 points is the difference between taking a rookie and taking a dagger with advanced sensors or Wedge. When a ship's role is primarily to be cheap filler cost is by far the most attribute (assuming they're relatively close in performance), and saving three points each on your cheap filler ships lets you get better performance on the ships that matter.

A-wings aren't cheap filler, they've merely been forced into that role up until this point by virtue of being the cheapest rebel ship not counting a naked HWK, who's 1 attack makes it very unattractive without either a named ability or turret upgrade, they are light skirmishers, Headhunters are filler.

They both serve their purpose. A-wings make better flankers+ but you can get a whole lot out of 3 points and one agility is not worth 3 points.(not that A-wings aren't worth the cost, but for a straight up escort flier the z95 is better. And works as better filler. If I have 24 points left over I'm not going with an Awing and cards.(Unless I want specific things.) But two Z-95s will work pretty amazingly there versus 30 points for two awings.

With the Z's you can create a, let's call it, Stinger list:

Tala Squadron, Ion pulse missiles x 2

Dagger Squadron, Advanced Sensors, HLC x 2

Which doesn't seem to be that bad of a list to start out with.

(or drop the Advanced Sensors and upgrade the Z's to both named pilots, including VI for the pair, taking care of Stealth Devices and giving out actions before the Daggers shoot).

They both serve their purpose. A-wings make better flankers+ but you can get a whole lot out of 3 points and one agility is not worth 3 points.(not that A-wings aren't worth the cost, but for a straight up escort flier the z95 is better. And works as better filler. If I have 24 points left over I'm not going with an Awing and cards.(Unless I want specific things.) But two Z-95s will work pretty amazingly there versus 30 points for two awings.

Wait. 1 Evade die isn't worth three points?

Stealth Device is probably the most popular modification and it costs three points for a Temporary extra evade die. And it takes your modification slot.

I think a permanent evade die plus the better dial is substantially better than a mere stealth device.

one agility is not worth 3 points.

A whole lot of Stealth Devices would beg to differ, and R2-F2 is giving a series of bleeps and whoops that are making C-3PO blush and refuse to translate.

And those are boosts which don't even last all that long, or require actions.

I think you're glossing over that there are two completely new unique pilots and the fact that Tala Squadron Pilots are only 13 points, which is going to be a fairly significant advantage concerning a lot of the meta and new ships that will grace the skies in the upcoming releases with Wave 4 and beyond. I don't think people are going to be terribly concerned with using Bandits as blockers, unless they happen to be exceptionally good at it, because the dial for them isn't terribly exciting.

Blount has great synergy with both of the included Ion and Assault Missiles seeing as they are guaranteed to work whether or not they actually do damage. This is a -huge- tactical advantage, as it will either cause ionization or the splash damage of the assault missile. Also, since even if his normal attack misses he can automatically remove Stealth Devices.

Cracken is also going to be nice, since he's also very cheap for a PS8 fighter and his ability is (arguably) better than Lando's, and he's in a good squad based ship that's good for hiding behind better ships anyway. He's a perfect wingman that doesn't have to take the front row action. How thematic!

I think the extra pilot skill of the generics is also something to consider. A's have 1-3 and Z's have 2-4, with the Green Squadron Pilots having the obvious advantage of the cheapest elite talented fighters to the Rebellion (that aren't unique, in which makes them unique to the faction). Though it is possible to get higher PS with the A-Wings it's going to cost you a little bit more with Veteran Instincts or being forced to use one of your unique pilots. While this isn't really a big deal, points are points, and PS is dirt cheap for the Z's.

Also, consider this: when Chaardan Refit is in the hands of players, it effectively -costs- you those two points to use missiles with A-Wings. While not normally a problem, it now makes the cost of missiles and other secondary weapons just that much more apparent in the case of the A-Wing.

Is the Z-95 a -better- fighter than the A-Wing? Of course not. But it's cheaper to deploy and has it's purposes in Rebel squads. Do I recommend swarms of them? Not so much. They're going to be an important part of many upcoming lists, but I doubt that swarms are going to become especially viable without a really killer synergy trick to them.

What uses will there be for Headhunters when we have 15-point A-wings?

- Swarm...

- Cheap missile carriers...

- Filling in that last ship...

I agree with you about the swarm, but I think the other two are a lot bigger than you're imagining here. Bandit + Ion Pulse Missile is just 15 points, for instance, and trades the A-wing's better defense (and action bar) for some fairly nice board control.

And as filler I agree with iPeregrine: it's not 3 points, it's 3 points per Headhunter. If you present me with a choice between an A-wing and a Headhunter, of course I'll choose the A-wing--but what if it's a choice between an A-wing and two Headhunters, or between two A-wings and three Headhunters?

That's significant because two of the major Rebel archetypes are the "elite" build with three ships (costing an average of 33 points each) and the mixed build with four ships (costing an average of 25 points each). With a bit of tweaking, the "elite" builds can go from three ships to four by substituting a pair of A-wings for one of the elites, or from three ships to five with Headhunters; likewise, mixed builds can transition from four ships to five, and they'll be using Headhunters to do it. That's a big change and a big role, and it means the Headhunter is going to be fine.

Or, to put it another way: that 3-point difference may not sound like much compared to the 100-point cap, but it's a 20% discount on the A-wing's (already discounted) cost. And those points represent an additional PTL or Recon Specialist or Advanced Sensors somewhere else in your build; they represent the difference between a Rookie Pilot and a Blue Squadron Pilot + Fire Control, or the difference between a naked Blue Squadron Pilot and Biggs. If you're already at or very near the limit in a list, there are times when you'd do just about anything to squeeze in an extra few points--and transitioning from a Prototype to a Bandit isn't a meaningless change, but it's a pretty painless one and it can potentially pay a huge dividend elsewhere.

EDIT: An illustration of what I mean about the mixed list... take the well-known, Wave-1-style Wedge/Biggs list:

• Wedge Antilles (29)
• Biggs Darklighter (25)
• Rookie Pilot (21)
• Rookie Pilot (21)

• Wedge Antilles (29)
• Biggs Darklighter (25)
• Airen Cracken (19) + Swarm Tactics (2)
• Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
• Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Cost is the great equalizer. The Z-95 is the cheapest ship in the game, taking Pilot Skill into account.

People spend the last 4 points in a lot of different ways, these days including replacing the Rookies with Blues. But in the Wave 4 metagame, you'll be able to replace those Rookies with Headhunters, like so:

• Wedge Antilles (29)
• Biggs Darklighter (25)
• Airen Cracken (19) + Swarm Tactics (2)
• Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
• Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Sometimes that's not a trade you want to make, particularly if 999 or other Interceptor lists are hanging around in your meta. But it buys you better pilot skill, an extra action every round, and a couple of extra hit points--and you can't do that with an A-wing.

Wedge Antilles + R2 Astromech (30)

Biggs Darklighter (25)

Prototype Pilot (15)

Prototype Pilot (15)

Prototype Pilot (15)

Is that one action you're going to share from Cracken worth making all three of your support ships slower, less maneuverable, and more fragile? Possibly - it could be an interesting pairing to help keep Biggs alive. But it'll be at the expense of everything else in your squadron dropping like a rock once he's gone.

Yes, they're cheaper, but I think you have to look at what you get for those three points. I have a hard time thinking of a more dramatic shift between two ships for such a small points cost. I think the Y-wing and X-wing make a good comparison, because they're the same point difference. The survivability is roughly the same, the actions are the same, so for those 3 points the X-wing gets an extra attack die and a better dial. The same three points between the Z-95 and A-wing gives a permanent agility die, boost, evade, and the most maneuverable dial in the game.

I'm not saying you're never going to see situations and roles where the Z-95 works. But the difference in points is small enough I have a hard time seeing cases where it's not worth it. We have yet to actually see a 2/2/2/2 ship on the field, and I think it's going to turn out to be dramatically more fragile than most players are willing to deal with, even at the cheap price. The A-wing's extra agility, maneuverability, and boost is going to make it very hard to avoid spending those three points.

Wedge Antilles + R2 Astromech (30)

Biggs Darklighter (25)

Prototype Pilot (15)

Prototype Pilot (15)

Prototype Pilot (15)

Is that one action you're going to share from Cracken worth making all three of your support ships slower, less maneuverable, and more fragile? Possibly - it could be an interesting pairing to help keep Biggs alive. But it'll be at the expense of everything else in your squadron dropping like a rock once he's gone.

I like that list, not only because I think it'll be good but because it illustrates exactly the kind of tradeoff I'm talking about. Here, Cracken means that Biggs is able to stack actions, and he also improves the pilot skill of the group. Dropping him out allows you to afford A-wings instead, but that makes your pilot skill worse (9/5/1/1/1 instead of, e.g., 9/8/8/2/2) and takes away that extra action for Biggs (effectively pulling some of his offense away, since you'll be obliged to leave his focus token for defense).

The A-wing list has slightly better durability at the bottom of the firing order, at the expense of pilot skill and offense at the top of the firing order.

The same three points between the Z-95 and A-wing gives a permanent agility die, boost, evade, and the most maneuverable dial in the game.

The A-wing's dial is better out of context, but it's not terribly friendly to formation flying with Biggs--and it's not as if the Headhunter's dial is bad. The Headhunter loses out on evade, about which I couldn't care much less, and on boost, which again is useful in some contexts but not others. And the Agility die in this context means on average the A-wing will live through about one additional shot, so the A-wing and Z-95 have about the same relationship as the B-wing and X-wing.

We have yet to actually see a 2/2/2/2 ship on the field, and I think it's going to turn out to be dramatically more fragile than most players are willing to deal with, even at the cheap price.

TIE Fighters are a mainstay of the game, and their overall lifespan is--not coincidentally, I think--about the same as a Headhunter.

I think we agree about the tradeoffs, really, but disagree about their magnitude and impact on the game. I'm not sure we'll get anywhere continuing to discuss it, but just in case, I'll leave you with another Wave 4 edit to a Wave 1 list:

• Garven Dreis (26)
• Dutch Vander (23) + Ion Cannon Turret (5)
• Gold Squadron Pilot (18) + Ion Cannon Turret (5)
• Rookie Pilot (21)

• Garven Dreis (26) + Flechette Torpedoes (2)
• Dutch Vander (23) + Ion Cannon Turret (5)
• Rebel Operative (16) + Ion Cannon Turret (5)
• Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
• Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)