I tend to agree on most points. Rexler is going to be great anywhere and doesn't need any upgrades. Vessery seems to have some nice synergy in a bomber list, though.

The Bomber list I flew with some decent, but not great, success was Jonus + 3 Gammas. Vessery takes away two of the Gammas. If you put Vessery in a bomber list, it's not really a bomber list any more.

If you're sticking with Jonus and kitted out Gammas. You can include him, along with 3 scimitars and 17 points of upgrades. You can include him and 3 gammas with seismic bombs and a missile, or Jonus, a Gamma, and a Scimitar with 9 points of upgrades. There are options, especially with cheaper ordnance options coming down the pipe. Whether they work better is certainly debateable, but he at least provides an interesting element to the bomber list that it didn't have before in terms of survivability, consistent hitting power (especially with free target locks), and maneuverability.

Yup. Vessery is either a shuttleman or needs to be paired up with someone who has the actions to spare (i.e. ptl + TL squints) Superfel is also an excellent suggestion, as he can "tag" a ship with a TL and still have an action + Focus to hit someone else.

The problem with using Fel is that you're giving him a target lock he can't spend.

Same goes for Vader. Whoever's providing the lock has to hold it until Vessery's chance to attack. This basically makes it a longer-ranged and limited Squad Leader.

If you're sticking with Jonus and kitted out Gammas. You can include him, along with 3 scimitars and 17 points of upgrades. You can include him and 3 gammas with seismic bombs and a missile, or Jonus, a Gamma, and a Scimitar with 9 points of upgrades. There are options, especially with cheaper ordnance options coming down the pipe. Whether they work better is certainly debateable, but he at least provides an interesting element to the bomber list that it didn't have before in terms of survivability, consistent hitting power (especially with free target locks), and maneuverability.

Personally, I don't see the point to 3 bombers with only 2 missiles, especially with Jonus. At that cost you can get even more effectiveness from Jonus alone or Rhymer with PtL, and spend the rest of the points on support TIEs. Running them without Jonus is just a recipe for making a lot of expensive, ineffective attacks. A truth of Mathwing is that token-less missile attacks are a waste of points.

So yes, you can put Vessery in a bomber list. All you have to do to make it work is strip everything that makes the bomber list effective.

And that's the problem. What you have to do to make Vessery's ability work really hoses the other elements of the list. Honestly, I think the most effective way to make it work will be slapping Targeting Computers on basic Academy Pilots. You can afford to give up their action (especially with Howlrunner), they're worth taking as filler anyway so they're not too much extra (+2 each), they fire after Vessery if you do want to spend it, and they can lock multiple targets and just let the locks sit on half (or more) of your opponent's squadron so that you don't have to worry about coordinating the attack.

Here's one along those lines:

Vessery + Adrenaline Rush

Howlrunner

Dark Curse + TC

2x AP+TC

Howl, DC, and a pair of Academy Pilots would make a respectable miniswarm to support the expensive Defender anyway, so you're burning 6 points on the TCs to make Vessery work. Is his ability worth those 6 points? <shrug> I don't think so, when you've got Rexler with a far better ability for only 2 more, but people seem determined to make Vessery work.

Yup. Vessery is either a shuttleman or needs to be paired up with someone who has the actions to spare (i.e. ptl + TL squints) Superfel is also an excellent suggestion, as he can "tag" a ship with a TL and still have an action + Focus to hit someone else.

The problem with using Fel is that you're giving him a target lock he can't spend.

Same goes for Vader. Whoever's providing the lock has to hold it until Vessery's chance to attack. This basically makes it a longer-ranged and limited Squad Leader.

If you're sticking with Jonus and kitted out Gammas. You can include him, along with 3 scimitars and 17 points of upgrades. You can include him and 3 gammas with seismic bombs and a missile, or Jonus, a Gamma, and a Scimitar with 9 points of upgrades. There are options, especially with cheaper ordnance options coming down the pipe. Whether they work better is certainly debateable, but he at least provides an interesting element to the bomber list that it didn't have before in terms of survivability, consistent hitting power (especially with free target locks), and maneuverability.

Personally, I don't see the point to 3 bombers with only 2 missiles, especially with Jonus. At that cost you can get even more effectiveness from Jonus alone or Rhymer with PtL, and spend the rest of the points on support TIEs. Running them without Jonus is just a recipe for making a lot of expensive, ineffective attacks. A truth of Mathwing is that token-less missile attacks are a waste of points.

So yes, you can put Vessery in a bomber list. All you have to do to make it work is strip everything that makes the bomber list effective.

And that's the problem. What you have to do to make Vessery's ability work really hoses the other elements of the list. Honestly, I think the most effective way to make it work will be slapping Targeting Computers on basic Academy Pilots. You can afford to give up their action (especially with Howlrunner), they're worth taking as filler anyway so they're not too much extra (+2 each), they fire after Vessery if you do want to spend it, and they can lock multiple targets and just let the locks sit on half (or more) of your opponent's squadron so that you don't have to worry about coordinating the attack.

Here's one along those lines:

Vessery + Adrenaline Rush

Howlrunner

Dark Curse + TC

2x AP+TC

Howl, DC, and a pair of Academy Pilots would make a respectable miniswarm to support the expensive Defender anyway, so you're burning 6 points on the TCs to make Vessery work. Is his ability worth those 6 points? <shrug> I don't think so, when you've got Rexler with a far better ability for only 2 more, but people seem determined to make Vessery work.

All good points, but SableGryphon did make a 5 gamma with seismic bombs work and two of the final 4 in the HiLo Vassal tourney were bomber lists that didn't have ordnance. I guess my point is, bombers don't need ordnance and whether Vess will work well enough to complement something like that, at the cost of one of the bombers, isn't terrible to consider.

That said, I agree with you that Rex is certainly the better choice hands down simply because his ability is better and works on his own, so he can be plugged into any list (3x Saber with PTL or as a part of a mini-swarm).

All good points, but SableGryphon did make a 5 gamma with seismic bombs work and two of the final 4 in the HiLo Vassal tourney were bomber lists that didn't have ordnance.

I'd take a little exception to calling a single Scimitar a "bomber list" But the other one did look interesting. Whether 5+Howlrunner would work as well as 3+Vessery is something I'd have to question.

Vessery requires another ship with target lock, but most importantly requires that that ship go after the same target. If it doesn't, then it's a Squad Leader-style transfer.

Assume the ship supplying TL does not go after the same target as Vessery. That one action for TL may help Vessery for more than one round. In that case, it is more than a SL-style transfer.

Vessery requires another ship with target lock, but most importantly requires that that ship go after the same target. If it doesn't, then it's a Squad Leader-style transfer.

Assume the ship supplying TL does not go after the same target as Vessery. That one action for TL may help Vessery for more than one round. In that case, it is more than a SL-style transfer.

Fair point (that I actually leverage in the mini-support-swarm idea) but I don't know how much I'd consider it in the overall equation. It may benefit him for multiple turns, but means Vessery has to stay on the same target, the target has to live, and the spotter has to survive. That honestly seems to me like a lot of conditions to rely on for a consistent multiplier.

If the spotter also functions as the sweep you still get two TL'd attacks for the price of one. Add a Weapons Engineer and you'll keep the opponent finding it hard to keep both out of arcs, making his actions and movements more predictable.

Throw in Basement Jaxx to deny tokens and the hits just keep on coming.

I'll say (shorter) the same thing I said above - Vessery's ability requires far more than "Get a ship with Target Lock on the board." Say you do take an Omicron with ST-321. Almost everyone will concede that a shuttle needs boost, so that's 28 points. You've got 27 points left in your build. What do you fill it with? Two Academies gives you a 4-ship build, including two scrub ties and a boat that can barely maneuver, and can't maneuver at all if you want it to do what you put it there to do, namely lock onto targets for Vessery's benefit.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it's not possible to set things up for Vessery. It obviously is. The question is whether it's a good idea.

There's a lot of shuttle builds that don't use engine boost. All those builds would need is ST-321 and they're suddenly perfect in sync with Vessery while they do their own thing.

All good points, but SableGryphon did make a 5 gamma with seismic bombs work and two of the final 4 in the HiLo Vassal tourney were bomber lists that didn't have ordnance.

I'd take a little exception to calling a single Scimitar a "bomber list" But the other one did look interesting. Whether 5+Howlrunner would work as well as 3+Vessery is something I'd have to question.

Ahh, I thought there were two lists with more bombers. I won't argue that it will be as strong as Howlrunner in a similar list, but that goes for a lot of lists. I'll also point put that SableGryphon's list did not include Howlrunner or Jonus, which is what I was addressing in that post (your comment about removing "everything" that makes a bomber list effective by including Vess). So, there are more options than just carrying expensive ordnance now and there will be more in the near future. I'm not arguing it's going to be the best imperial list, but I think it' worth considering if someone wants to fly bombers and had potential for being viable.

Why not a shuttle or phantom w/ fire control system? Throw a weapons engineer in there and you could lock two targets after attacking.

I like to run Vessery with Cluster Missiles and Outmaneuvre, and then match him with a Shuttle OGP with ST-321. The target lock from the shuttle is setup anytime, and the shuttle sort of rolls up the center and takes hits. With 3 attack dice and some Gargantuan Space Bus intimidation, it could make it easier for Vessery to get out of the opponents arc and use his Outmaneuvre to full effect. With the Shuttle able to switch targets before Vessery, then fire after, it has worked out pretty nice.

I like to run Vessery with big ships, but I've seen some nice looking interceptor builds I'd like to try. I feel like if you get his ability off twice, its made its points. Plus, anything you put TL on and match with him is going to draw fire, so could be a good way to control your opponent's attention, and keep it off your Defender, that despite being tough, can go down very fast.

Plus, I love Outmaneuvre. I've scored 5 hits with Cluster Missiles on a B Wing, negating its entire defense for both shots, then shot it with the OGP at range 1 and scored 3 hits against a lucky 0 evades, and killed it right out.

Is it just me, or is vessery the best cluster missiler ever? Target lock, fire cluster missiles, roll first volley, acquire TL, modify first volley, roll second volley, acquire TL, modify second volley. Six total attack dice with a target lock. Throw Outmaneuver on him, and suddenly falcons, B-Wings, Y-wing, and lambda shuttles don't get to evade. Firesprays and X-wings are now vulnerable to a good clusterizing. Pair him with titled lambda to set up a TL or two anywhere on the board and cripple/decimate any ship of your choosing.

I don't think his ability works the way you think it does. You have to spend the target lock to even begin the attack, which means when you're rolling the attack, there's no target lock to trigger the ability. Am I missing something?

I don't think his ability works the way you think it does. You have to spend the target lock to even begin the attack, which means when you're rolling the attack, there's no target lock to trigger the ability. Am I missing something?

a to set up a TL or two anywhere on the board and cripple/decimate any ship of your choosing.

Vessery gets a lock after he rolls attack dice against a target, if that target has a lock on it. So Vessery spends the lock to fire the missiles, rolls the first attack, gets a lock, spends that lock, starts the second attack, rolls dice, gets another lock, and spends that lock.

But when you roll the attack, there is no lock. In order to even perform the cluster missiles attack, you have to spend your blue target lock token. When you do that, the red target lock token goes away (just read that on the official rules and FAQ last night, in fact). So by the time you actually perform the attack, there is no red token.

But when you roll the attack, there is no lock. In order to even perform the cluster missiles attack, you have to spend your blue target lock token. When you do that, the red target lock token goes away (just read that on the official rules and FAQ last night, in fact). So by the time you actually perform the attack, there is no red token.

Unless someone else has a lock on the target...

Vessery can't provide the lock himself. If he has no lock on the target, the conditions for him to get one aren't met. If he does have the lock on the target, he can't reacquire a lock on that target, and there's no point to it anyway.

A Firespray solves the Target Lock issue without resorting to using "meh" ships, spending even more points on Targetting Computer, or breaking too many synergies.

99 points

Vessery + Cluster Missiles (39)

Bounty Hunter + Weapons Engineer (36)

Academy Pilot x2 (24)

If you are feeling really daring, then:

100 points

Vessery + Cluster Missiles (39)

Krassis + Weapons Engineer + Heavy Laser Cannon (46)

Nightbeast (15)

Edit: another daring list, this one does use targeting computer.

99 points

Vessery + Cluster Missiles (39)

Royal Guard Interceptor + Push the Limit + Targeting Computer (24)

Bounty Hunter + Weapons Engineer (36)

But when you roll the attack, there is no lock. In order to even perform the cluster missiles attack, you have to spend your blue target lock token. When you do that, the red target lock token goes away (just read that on the official rules and FAQ last night, in fact). So by the time you actually perform the attack, there is no red token.

Unless someone else has a lock on the target...

Vessery can't provide the lock himself. If he has no lock on the target, the conditions for him to get one aren't met. If he does have the lock on the target, he can't reacquire a lock on that target, and there's no point to it anyway.

Ok, i was under the impression that OP thought Vessery's own target lock helped him out. We're good.