To me, imperial lists have the clear advantage in everything but hull/shield totals. Other than Han Solo countering a lot of shenanigans by himself, what sort of lists suddenly negate all of the empire's upsides? I honestly don't see any basis for the attitude towards empire lists that seems to be everywhere on here.

In everything but "hull/shields"? Is this a real statement? I hope you realize that hull/shields mean everything when it comes to surviving against competent players who can maneuver to get shots in. Shields also negate crit effects, which can be something like Direct Damage which will instantly destroy a 3-hull ship if you have at least 1 damage on it. Agility dice, is completely random compared to Hull and Shields, which is constant. Anything that relies on maneuverability and dodging firing arcs is hard-countered by 360 Turrets because they'll always have a shot. Nothing tests an Imperial player's luck more than Han Solo + Gunner. Stress-inducers ruin Interceptors if they PTL because they won't be able to take actions next turn due to the extra stress.

So before you make a thread stating that you can't see any basis for things as elementary as the ones I stated above, you should try playing the game a little more. Maybe then you'll realize why there's so many TIE Swarm lists flying everywhere and doing well. It provides firepower via sheer number of attack dice + Howlrunner re-rolls and combines it with 3x7 ships worth of total Hull Points. PS1 crappers provide action denial blockers, and when you lose a Tie or two, you are still outputting good damage compared to losing 1/3 elite Interceptors. That's a third of your damage missing. As your damage output decreases, the chances of winning over similar hull points goes down dramatically. That's just a mathematical certainty.

Making newbtastic threads like this and calling other players whiners just beg to get slapped in the face.

I thought the rebels were supposed to win?

The terrorist traitors are just supposed to die and have a cheap funeral.

Man, first I was told flying and position are everything, but now it's combined HP? I'll never get it straight.

I have not really heard that much complaining about "this particular rebel squad is too good" or anything like that. You will always have some of that on both sides even if the game was perfectly balanced all around.

People seem more concerned about lack of viable squad building options for Imperials. Lately the trend has been to use swarms or large bases or GTFO, and some of the upcoming new Rebel pilots and upgrades seem (superficially at least) to directly counteract the few other somewhat viable Imperial squad building options, namely the TIE interceptor. If a 3-4 ship small base imperial build could have the same level of success as the traditional 4 X-wings or 2 X-wing 2 B-wings builds and other such build types have had, I think there would be a lot less negativity in this area. It has maybe bubbled up a little more recently since the Defender was spoiled and hasn't quite matched everyone's hopes.

You will always have some of that on both sides even if the game was perfectly balanced all around.

Rock: "Paper is overpowered and needs a nerf. Scissors are fine."

People seem more concerned about lack of viable squad building options for Imperials. Lately the trend has been to use swarms or large bases or GTFO…

I've heard people say this a couple of times, and I'm skeptical. If you rule out swarms (i.e., TIE Fighters and Alpha Squadron Pilots) and large bases (i.e., Firespray and Lambda), you've disqualified half of the Imperial arsenal. And doing so conceals a lot of diversity: a list with a doom shuttle, Howlrunner, and five TIE Fighters is very different from a list with two Firesprays and one TIE, which is in turn very different from a list with one Firespray and three Interceptors.

And of the remaining three ships, the TIE Advanced is a bad competitive option, conventional wisdom says the TIE Interceptor is too fragile and unreliable to be included in "real" lists, and the same collective knowledge says that ordnance is never efficient and so TIE Bombers are useless. Which leaves… nothing.

I disagree with the conventional wisdom about ordnance, having pretty recently seen an otherwise successful list rolled up, smoked, and tossed aside by a Bomber squad in round 3; I largely agreed with the community about elite Interceptors until Imperial Aces. I think every ship but the TIE Advanced can currently find a home in a competitive list; I think the real problem the community has is that we've grown so comfortable with swarms in general and Howlrunner in particular that we don't really remember how to build or fly lists that don't rely on massed fire from low-PS formations.

Or, to put it another way: the conventional wisdom used to be "swarm or GTFO", but we've made progress, and now it's "swarm or large base or GTFO". I'm fairly confident that by Nationals it will be "swarm or large base or Bomber or GTFO", and that by this time next year it will be pretty much anything-goes. I think the community is lagging behind the potential of the Imperial faction, but I think Wave 4 is going to jump-start some hybridization and other innovation, and that growth will be welcome.

I got my butt handed to me by 3 interceptors, who would move, PTL, boost barrel roll stress, then still take an action. Or turr, don't even get me started. Show me a rebel ship that can move like that.

Sure thing

I disagree with the conventional wisdom about ordnance, having pretty recently seen an otherwise successful list rolled up, smoked, and tossed aside by a Bomber squad in round 3;

Curiosity peaked. What kind of list was this?

I disagree with the conventional wisdom about ordnance, having pretty recently seen an otherwise successful list rolled up, smoked, and tossed aside by a Bomber squad in round 3;

Curiosity peaked. What kind of list was this?

I was running Chewie+Expert Handling+Luke+Falcon/2x Blue+FCS, went 2-1 (my only loss was to the eventual third-place player), and ended up as the #4 seed after the cut. My opponent ran, IIRC, Jonus+Homing/2x Gamma+Assault+Cluster/Black. The Gammas crippled one B-wing and lightly damaged Chewie with their Assault Missiles on round 2, and on round 3 the Homing and Clusters took Chewie from 11hp to dead while Black Squadron finished off the crippled Blue.

Jan + Wedge can be a pretty nasty combo.

I rolled 5 dice against 2, and killed Fel early on in combat with this setup.

It almost caused my game partner to sell all his figures.

I disagree with the conventional wisdom about ordnance, having pretty recently seen an otherwise successful list rolled up, smoked, and tossed aside by a Bomber squad in round 3;

Curiosity peaked. What kind of list was this?

I was running Chewie+Expert Handling+Luke+Falcon/2x Blue+FCS, went 2-1 (my only loss was to the eventual third-place player), and ended up as the #4 seed after the cut. My opponent ran, IIRC, Jonus+Homing/2x Gamma+Assault+Cluster/Black. The Gammas crippled one B-wing and lightly damaged Chewie with their Assault Missiles on round 2, and on round 3 the Homing and Clusters took Chewie from 11hp to dead while Black Squadron finished off the crippled Blue.

Oooh, I see, using homing missiles to mitigate Jonus' inability to buff himself. ****, can't believe I hadn't thought of that.

GTFO?

Get The **** Out

I disagree with the conventional wisdom about ordnance, having pretty recently seen an otherwise successful list rolled up, smoked, and tossed aside by a Bomber squad in round 3;

Curiosity peaked. What kind of list was this?

I was running Chewie+Expert Handling+Luke+Falcon/2x Blue+FCS, went 2-1 (my only loss was to the eventual third-place player), and ended up as the #4 seed after the cut. My opponent ran, IIRC, Jonus+Homing/2x Gamma+Assault+Cluster/Black. The Gammas crippled one B-wing and lightly damaged Chewie with their Assault Missiles on round 2, and on round 3 the Homing and Clusters took Chewie from 11hp to dead while Black Squadron finished off the crippled Blue.

Sadly...

Not a fan of the YT or 360 turrets in general. I think if they were restricted to 270 it would be more enjoyable for everyone as it would need more thought for the Rebel and offer a small window for the Imperial.

Calling out half of the player base seems a bit trollish...

Here goes as far as what we don't like to see:

Bwings generally hose shuttles. Same firepower, similar cost, almost the same HP and better maneuverability and support. We counter Bwings with interceptors...then Biggs screws up that plan. YT's tend to **** those down unless you are very good, very lucky, or both. Combine with the advanced being pretty pathetic and half of the imperial ships have pretty hearty counters while nothing the imperials have really scares them or if it does they just take biggs

I disagree with the conventional wisdom about ordnance, having pretty recently seen an otherwise successful list rolled up, smoked, and tossed aside by a Bomber squad in round 3;

Curiosity peaked. What kind of list was this?

I was running Chewie+Expert Handling+Luke+Falcon/2x Blue+FCS, went 2-1 (my only loss was to the eventual third-place player), and ended up as the #4 seed after the cut. My opponent ran, IIRC, Jonus+Homing/2x Gamma+Assault+Cluster/Black. The Gammas crippled one B-wing and lightly damaged Chewie with their Assault Missiles on round 2, and on round 3 the Homing and Clusters took Chewie from 11hp to dead while Black Squadron finished off the crippled Blue.

It's not a question of usefulness, as Ordnance can be very useful. It's just too easy for it to be completely wasted points, and a pain to try to line up much of the time.

Sadly...

This list has very well built in reliability with Jonus and Jonus carrying homing missiles. Consider that it will be even better when munitions failsafe (especially considering 100 points aren't accounted for), and it's a very interesting list.

I disagree with the conventional wisdom about ordnance, having pretty recently seen an otherwise successful list rolled up, smoked, and tossed aside by a Bomber squad in round 3;

Curiosity peaked. What kind of list was this?

I was running Chewie+Expert Handling+Luke+Falcon/2x Blue+FCS, went 2-1 (my only loss was to the eventual third-place player), and ended up as the #4 seed after the cut. My opponent ran, IIRC, Jonus+Homing/2x Gamma+Assault+Cluster/Black. The Gammas crippled one B-wing and lightly damaged Chewie with their Assault Missiles on round 2, and on round 3 the Homing and Clusters took Chewie from 11hp to dead while Black Squadron finished off the crippled Blue.

It's not a question of usefulness, as Ordnance can be very useful. It's just too easy for it to be completely wasted points, and a pain to try to line up much of the time.

Sadly...

This list has very well built in reliability with Jonus and Jonus carrying homing missiles. Consider that it will be even better when munitions failsafe (especially considering 100 points aren't accounted for), and it's a very interesting list.

Trust me when I say, Jonus enhanced Cluster Missiles against a 1 Agility ship is bad, bad news. So much pain.

Trust me when I say, Jonus enhanced Cluster Missiles against a 1 Agility ship is bad, bad news. So much pain.

Jonus is great for enhancing a squad. But engineering that shot isn't nearly so easy as it should be.

I don't think it's specific builds - but there have been a LOT more toys lately for the Rebels than the imperials and the consensus is that Rebel Aces is far better than Imperial Aces (further skewing the perceived issues).

7-TIE Swarm still does very good against any other list in the field. Maybe 'Imperial players' just need to stop playing bad lists of 3 interceptors.

Until there's a definitive rebel list that's better than any of the wide variety of tie swarms, I don't feel bad for imperial players. I've been more of a rebel player, but lately have been doing more imperial, but mostly firespray lists as that's my favorite ship in the game.