I am not saying don't stat them. Rather than start a thread asking why there isn't a thread on statting named NPCs, why not start a thread for statting named NPCs?

Um, from my original post where I started this thread:

What stats should the big guy have? What about Yoda, Mace, Luke or the walking carpet? Aside from being fun to put some of these people in the game, they'd really help people get a feel for the numbers.

That's me starting a thread asking for stats. I requested any suggestions or links to existing stats. I then got replies about why there shouldn't be stats (notably from yourself). Now I don't mind those replies at all - I think the discussion is interesting. But don't complain that I should be asking for stats because I did. In the first post.

An NPC having stats does not negate them having goals and abilities to drive player decisions. I assume you don't skip giving stats to your non-name NPCs because they're "intended to drive player decisions". But you suddenly think this shouldn't apply to named NPCs.

More like, I don't think this should apply to icons of the galaxy. I think WOTC made a mistake providing them, because the limits of the system didn't allow for an accurate flavour. I give WEG a pass because they had so much less to work with, and part of was required for marketing.

Anyway, for me there is no point to having the stats, not for the games I run. But if you want them, what's stopping you?

Well as I said in the first post, I'm very new to the system and don't feel I'm in a good position to know what Vader or Luke should be like. I've not even run a game yet and even after my first few games, I'm not going to have a good feel for the power curve that PCs might follow after six or seven adventures. Having a feel for what Mace Windu might be like helps stop me creating a crazy-more-powerful-than-Mace bounty-hunter. Knowing what Asoka Tano is like (maybe an early and a late version) gives me a good idea what a similar character might be like. Or I might just want to use one of these characters because my players will get a kick out of it. And the stats help. I don't really get why there's so much resistance to the idea. As another poster pointed out, someone could as easily say: "if you want stats, what's stopping you?" about X-Wings or Madalorian armour.

There's certainly enough guidelines in the system that one could extrapolate stats for major characters. However, unlike Saga edition, NPC creation is not tied to the same rules as regular character creation. There are certain rules, Adversary in particular, that players have no access to at all, and they upgrade the difficulty of facing down such an NPC. So far, the highest Adversary talent I have seen is Adversary 2. I would expect that Vader would be minimum Adversary 4, and he also has plot armour. Even if PCs manage to thrash him, he would still live to fulfill his destiny.

I put Lando's stats into Oggdude's GM Tools. His "power level" as represented in the book would be roughly 555. Still less than a Black Sun Vigo or Hutt Crime Lord, but considerable. However, his entry there is only in the capacity of the Baron Administrator. Even then, the power level is hard to gauge, given that Lando has the resource of Cloud City at his disposal, which is not represented by the dashing cloak and fine clothing.

So if it's a matter of power level and scale, even "limited Lando" would be about where PCs might be after gaining about 450xp over the course of adventures.

Quick edit: Looking at Lando's personal stats as a human, they are really high. I'm guessing that for a PC to match these stats, one would need to have acquired dedication at least 3-4 times... which means Lando has fleshed out at minimum of 3-4 talent trees... which is a whole lot more experience than what is represented in the stat block...

Well as I said in the first post, I'm very new to the system and don't feel I'm in a good position to know what Vader or Luke should be like.

I wonder if even the designers of this game would know. This game isn't as mechanical as D20, and the power curve is far flatter, or multidimensional. I've noticed other posts by people saying their characters are well into 300+ XP, and yet stormtroopers are still a threat, unlike D20 where you slowly become almost completely immune to lower level threats. In theory there is no cap, you'd just keep buying specs and hitting Dedication until you've maxed all your attributes, and boatloads more on all your skills...never mind the Force. And at what point along that journey do you feel like a character could say "I walk into the Imperial Throne room and tell the Emperor to stand aside"? How many thousands of XP is that?

I think it's a safe bet that nobody has a PC yet that they really feel could take on one of the iconic characters in their areas of expertise.

I think it's a safe bet that nobody has a PC yet that they really feel could take on one of the iconic characters in their areas of expertise.

We have had a Smuggler (FS Exile, Scoudrel) and an Explorer (Fringer, Trader) that could hope to compete with Lando in social matters (the areas his given stats highlight) by 400 XP.

I think it's a safe bet that nobody has a PC yet that they really feel could take on one of the iconic characters in their areas of expertise.

Why not? I don't see why people assume that these characters are the best at what they do and are unreachable by "lowly" PCs.

Those characters are special because of the choices they make, the circumstances they are put in, and because the camera is on them. It's not because they have a bunch of stats leveled 5 and 6.

It's also whether or not a PC can beat up a famous NPC in a fight. That should never be the measuring stick.

Luke, Han, Leia, and Chewbacca were all taken prisoner at some point or another even by low-level Imperial lackeys. Leia went down to a single heavy stun hit, but she remained one of the most powerful and influential figures of the Rebellion Era. Han was a great pilot, but Lando pulled the wool over his eyes when he felt he was acting in the best interests of the station... that and Vader had basically cowed Lando with not only his personal presence, but with the military might of the Empire behind him.

Those characters are special because of the choices they make, the circumstances they are put in, and because the camera is on them. It's not because they have a bunch of stats leveled 5 and 6.

This reminds me of a quote from a certain movie:

“Stats matter not. Look at me. Judge me by my stats, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not.”

— Harry Potter

This reminds me of a quote from a certain movie:

“Stats matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my stats, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not.”

— Harry Potter

The best part of that scene was after hearing that, Picard realizes that he has been the Kwisatz Haderach all along, just like the Doctor had been telling him.

There's certainly enough guidelines in the system that one could extrapolate stats for major characters. However, unlike Saga edition, NPC creation is not tied to the same rules as regular character creation. There are certain rules, Adversary in particular, that players have no access to at all, and they upgrade the difficulty of facing down such an NPC. So far, the highest Adversary talent I have seen is Adversary 2. I would expect that Vader would be minimum Adversary 4, and he also has plot armour. Even if PCs manage to thrash him, he would still live to fulfill his destiny.

I put Lando's stats into Oggdude's GM Tools. His "power level" as represented in the book would be roughly 555. Still less than a Black Sun Vigo or Hutt Crime Lord, but considerable. However, his entry there is only in the capacity of the Baron Administrator. Even then, the power level is hard to gauge, given that Lando has the resource of Cloud City at his disposal, which is not represented by the dashing cloak and fine clothing.

So if it's a matter of power level and scale, even "limited Lando" would be about where PCs might be after gaining about 450xp over the course of adventures.

Quick edit: Looking at Lando's personal stats as a human, they are really high. I'm guessing that for a PC to match these stats, one would need to have acquired dedication at least 3-4 times... which means Lando has fleshed out at minimum of 3-4 talent trees... which is a whole lot more experience than what is represented in the stat block...

Interesting. I hadn't really noticed the Adversary trait yet. The Forsaken Jedi in the book has Adversary 2. "Limited Lando" being about 450XP is good to know as well.

I think it's a safe bet that nobody has a PC yet that they really feel could take on one of the iconic characters in their areas of expertise.

Why not? I don't see why people assume that these characters are the best at what they do and are unreachable by "lowly" PCs.

Those characters are special because of the choices they make, the circumstances they are put in, and because the camera is on them. It's not because they have a bunch of stats leveled 5 and 6.

That's my take on things as well. It's hard to see Leia as an unreachable height in terms of abilities, for all her gritty determination and ranks in Scathing Tirade. It's who she is and what she chooses that really matter. That's why I don't like to avoid stats for named NPCs as if they were sacred.

Jedi stats are currently impossible to determine and will remain so until at least the F&D beta, if not the 6th Jedi career book is released.

I like certain things not having stats. The looks on my groups faces the first time they thought a star destroyer would be defeated by a half broken firespray, only to be blown up before combat technically began.

You have to understand that while it is possible to stat certain characters/ships that don't have such stats yet. That's not really what SWRPG is about.

EotE is a narrative system where story trumps all stats. If you are concerned with stats and book keeping/stating your PCs to munchkin levels then you should play pathfinder or D&D instead as that is more to your taste.

Nobody in SWRPG can reach Vader/Luke heights as they are the strongest Jedi to ever live due to narrative structure that made them chosen ones. SWRPG is designed to free users from pesky stats by introducing dice pools and simplified numbers.

Hell, each career book has narrative abilities to purchase with XP, which are basically designed to IGNORE stats entirely because story.

While disjointed, what I'm trying to say is SWRPG is about narrative structure/creative interaction. You don't need to worry about stats, especially when we are easily 2 years away from being able to build characters even close to the movies.

Lando was statted, but only as a social elite you meet at a party. That Lando wouldn't do well on a spaceship. However, due to the powers of narrative flow, lando can do whatever you want. The PCs could perhaps even become barron administrators in his place, or outright murder him during Jewel of Yavin.

were Vader trying to kill us I know we'd be doing everything to stay alive. Grenades, flame, spray paint across the visor, Skuldugg more grenades on his person, groin shots, dirty tricks, possibly betrayal (I suspect at least one of us would try to flee amid chaos).

As players we'd know we couldn't win (we've seen the films, after all). As characters we'd have no choice.

Blood, spit, tears - it will not be pretty or clean when we die.

dude, don't kick a sith lord in the groin.

It does create a striking mismatch of film genres, though. I'm mentally picturing British hooligans inserted into Star Wars setting and I can already hear the East End accent: "Oi Jedi! Feel the force of this"

But then I suppose if you inject too much British into Star Wars, you end up with the Warhammer 40K setting.

An adage of gaming is 'If you stat it, they will kill it'. While it may be possible to make stats for Darth Vader and the Emperor and whatever well known character you want in your game, you never really know what your players would do when they come nose to nose with the Iconic persona.
Anyone recall the Dork Tower comic where the gang is going to play a home brew Lord of the Rings game?
"I kill Gandalf." Yup.

An adage of gaming is 'If you stat it, they will kill it'. While it may be possible to make stats for Darth Vader and the Emperor and whatever well known character you want in your game, you never really know what your players would do when they come nose to nose with the Iconic persona.

Anyone recall the Dork Tower comic where the gang is going to play a home brew Lord of the Rings game?

"I kill Gandalf." Yup.

I honestly would prefer, and I know my players would perceive it as unfair otherwise, for them to face Darth Vader and lose in a real fight no matter how many Yellows he was rolling, than for me as GM to just wave my hand at the players and say "You lose". The former gives them choice. They can plan, they can adapt, they can probably choose to run but whatever happens, it's not me arbitrarily deciding they're dead or incarcerated without any chance whatsoever. And as I wrote earlier, there are other possible outcomes. Can a heroic PC hold Vader off whilst her friends escape or rescue the wookie or whatever? In this scenario, I need to know how tough Vader is.

So basically, if there's a chance that they kill "Gandalf", that seems only reasonable to me. You're not running a real setting if something in it just determines outcomes according to GM choice, rather than has actual game values.

You need to know how tough Vader is?

He murders children without a second though and snaps the neck of any non force user in seconds. PCs would have to be suicidal to face him directly, especially since Vader would most likely also be accompanied by storm troopers by the hundred. He also shrugs off blaster fire (as shown in Empire when Han tried to shoot him).

The only things capable of stopping Vader were triumph rolls to disable blast doors in and the surprise attack during the death star trench run. of course, as far as the blast door holding Vader back, he did want them to get away so he could discover the location of the rebel base.

Vader will murder pretty much anyone in seconds. You can't really stat that effectively.

You need to know how tough Vader is?

He murders children without a second though and snaps the neck of any non force user in seconds. PCs would have to be suicidal to face him directly, especially since Vader would most likely also be accompanied by storm troopers by the hundred. He also shrugs off blaster fire (as shown in Empire when Han tried to shoot him).

The only things capable of stopping Vader were triumph rolls to disable blast doors in and the surprise attack during the death star trench run. of course, as far as the blast door holding Vader back, he did want them to get away so he could discover the location of the rebel base.

Vader will murder pretty much anyone in seconds. You can't really stat that effectively.

I never really got the impression from the movies that Vader was an unstoppable god. More like a supremely dangerous and ruthless villain.

Because he deflects Han's blaster bolt in ESB, do we now assume that a group of assailants with heavy blaster rifles would still see him spinning in a blur of hands whilst bolts ricocheted off him like laser pointers on a disco ball? Han scores at least one successful piloting roll against Vader - does that make Han god-tier also? Because I never got the feel of Han being super-human levels of ability from other moments in the film.

Most of us have probably been in at least one game where a poor (usually young) GM has a pet NPC that they wont let the PCs beat. Often they'll make up things on the fly for that NPC to stop the players gaining an advantage. It's no fun at all.

I guess also how far do you extend this sacredness? If the players meet Jabba, does he get similar immunity to whatever they try? Boba Fett? Uncle Owen?

Semi agree with that (that expression exists? XD)

In episodes 4,5,6 Vader seems that can inspire fear and grip one or two officers with the Force, stop Han, get annoyed by Han, confron Luke twice (you can think that Vader doesn't kill him because wants to convert him) but doesn't seem in that movies that is the ultimate klling machine.

But you have to remember that Vader *SPOILERS* is Anakin Skywalker XD and do you have to remeber that in Clone Wars and episodes 1,2,3 (that are 100% canon) Anakin Vader seems an almost unstoppable killing machine.

I would like to see how (if they can) people from FFG represent that

Currently, I get the feeling that FFG designed the game so that the PCs are never as good as the Heroes...

Take a look at Hutt Crime Lord. He's got 6 cunning. We'll say that Jabba has 7 cunning, and is matched by Luke's own cunning plan, so Luke is also 7 cunning. Luke's also really good at just about everything, so we'll simplify by just saying he has a 6 in everything (bare with me). Okay. Let's play RotJ with my stat block.

Luke: I want to jump from the sail barge to the skiff.

GM: That's a daunting check. 4 difficulty.

Luke: That's it? How about I jump over the whole sail barge? What kinda check is that?

GM: That's...more than impossible... that's... okay, 5 dice is impossible, 6 is ridiculously impossible, 7 is ludicrously impossible,8 is plaid.

So that's my logic. You're never suppose to be as good as Luke in RotJ, because then you would be making Plaid checks, and Plaid checks are not in CRB.

Semi agree with that (that expression exists? XD)

In episodes 4,5,6 Vader seems that can inspire fear and grip one or two officers with the Force, stop Han, get annoyed by Han, confron Luke twice (you can think that Vader doesn't kill him because wants to convert him) but doesn't seem in that movies that is the ultimate klling machine.

But you have to remember that Vader *SPOILERS* is Anakin Skywalker XD and do you have to remeber that in Clone Wars and episodes 1,2,3 (that are 100% canon) Anakin Vader seems an almost unstoppable killing machine.

I would like to see how (if they can) people from FFG represent that

I seem to remember him getting his helmet knocked off by some droids in the Mon Calamori episodes (Season 3) and I think getting beaten by the Cacodan (sp? - anyway, the shark-headed chap). I can't recall specific episodes right now, but I seem to remember plenty of instances where he had to fall back before massed droids and I'm sure he got knocked out at one point by someone. Absolutely agree he's tough as nails and he gets tougher as the CW series progress. I just don't see him as being unstoppable. And I think it makes the character less engaging if he is, to be honest. The infamous "lack of faith" scene in the OT isn't great because he walks in and everyone cowers before him. It's awesome because the other officer mocks his archaic religious superstitions and Vader finds this "disturbing" and over-reacts until Tarkin orders him to stop. It's not Vader's 'Hollywood bad-assery' that makes him awesome, it's the real uncertainty and unknown that makes him terrifying.

Currently, I get the feeling that FFG designed the game so that the PCs are never as good as the Heroes...

Take a look at Hutt Crime Lord. He's got 6 cunning. We'll say that Jabba has 7 cunning, and is matched by Luke's own cunning plan, so Luke is also 7 cunning. Luke's also really good at just about everything, so we'll simplify by just saying he has a 6 in everything (bare with me). Okay. Let's play RotJ with my stat block.

Luke: I want to jump from the sail barge to the skiff.

GM: That's a daunting check. 4 difficulty.

Luke: That's it? How about I jump over the whole sail barge? What kinda check is that?

GM: That's...more than impossible... that's... okay, 5 dice is impossible, 6 is ridiculously impossible, 7 is ludicrously impossible,8 is plaid.

So that's my logic. You're never suppose to be as good as Luke in RotJ, because then you would be making Plaid checks, and Plaid checks are not in CRB.

What's the maximum ranks in a skill that someone can have? The entry in the skills section says it's extremely rare for someone to attain "the fifth rank in a skill" and in the Adversaries section I can't find anyone with a skill above 5 with the exception of the Hutt Crime Lord who suddenly without warning has a Resilliance of 8.

Jedi stats are currently impossible to determine and will remain so until at least the F&D beta, if not the 6th Jedi career book is released.

I like certain things not having stats. The looks on my groups faces the first time they thought a star destroyer would be defeated by a half broken firespray, only to be blown up before combat technically began.

You have to understand that while it is possible to stat certain characters/ships that don't have such stats yet. That's not really what SWRPG is about.

EotE is a narrative system where story trumps all stats. If you are concerned with stats and book keeping/stating your PCs to munchkin levels then you should play pathfinder or D&D instead as that is more to your taste.

Nobody in SWRPG can reach Vader/Luke heights as they are the strongest Jedi to ever live due to narrative structure that made them chosen ones. SWRPG is designed to free users from pesky stats by introducing dice pools and simplified numbers.

Hell, each career book has narrative abilities to purchase with XP, which are basically designed to IGNORE stats entirely because story.

While disjointed, what I'm trying to say is SWRPG is about narrative structure/creative interaction. You don't need to worry about stats, especially when we are easily 2 years away from being able to build characters even close to the movies.

Lando was statted, but only as a social elite you meet at a party. That Lando wouldn't do well on a spaceship. However, due to the powers of narrative flow, lando can do whatever you want. The PCs could perhaps even become barron administrators in his place, or outright murder him during Jewel of Yavin.

Your take on the game is not the only valid approach, and my own is quite different (almost the opposite on several points). I'd suggest you not attempt to speak with authority on what the game is "about", how others "should" play, or what they "need to worry about" because all of those things are going to vary from one group to another.

Currently, I get the feeling that FFG designed the game so that the PCs are never as good as the Heroes...

Take a look at Hutt Crime Lord. He's got 6 cunning. We'll say that Jabba has 7 cunning

Is it so hard to believe that Jabba is just an example of a Hutt Crime Lord? I see no reason to believe that the stats for Jabba must be higher than those listed for the Hutt Crime Lord.

Here's how I see it, Vader spent two decades hunting the single most dangerous warriors (Jedi) in the galaxy, and consistently winning. Pretty much makes him baddest of the bad @$$e$ imo. Don't know what his stats and skills are but pretty good to consistently whoop Jedi.

I guess also how far do you extend this sacredness?

Your use of the term "sacred" is way off the mark and misses the point. It's about context and flavour. SW is too huge to bother with stories that have already been told, other than the framework they provide (which is now available in more detail via sourcebooks).

If they eventually statted these characters I guess I wouldn't care, I'd just ignore them. (Well, they did stat Lando, but wisely with a caveat...) The fact that they haven't bodes well for me, it feels like maybe the designers share that sense that SW tales can finally move beyond the movies and the characters in them, and we won't be seeing precious space and developer time wasted catering to pointless mechanical desires.

In an earlier post you mentioned something about "fairness", which I found completely at odds with how I game, and seems at odds with this game. It kind of sounds "adversarial" in that you and your players are more concerned with whether the other is cheating or not. The point of GMing to me is to provide a great time for the players, and invariably that point comes when they suspend their disbelief, they think they're on the ropes, and somebody's clever solution and/or amazing dice roll saves the day. If I stat something poorly, it would be unfair of me not to correct it somehow, so long as I can make it seem like it was the plan all along. It saves the experience.

Speaking COMPLETELY as a player, not a GM, and as a recent comer to Star Wars fandom, even if the stats for movie characters are given, I don't want to know them. Maybe like do many real-life examples, these people should just be considered to go beyond their stats for whatever reason. Han Solo might not have been the actual best pilot in the galaxyby his stats but his reputation says he just might be. Darth Vader might not have been tge most ruthless, murderous and capable killer in the galaxy by his stats but his reputation says he is. And so on. That's good enough for me.

This somehow reminds me of a question from the "Ask James Jacobs" thread on the Paizo forums. Someone asked (paraphrasing) how many other heroes were there in all of Golarion that would have stats like the PCs. They wanted to know for demographic reasons. James responded (again, paraphrasing) that there were no other heroes like that in the world and that the PCs were the only ones.

I like to think of the Star Wars galaxy as being like that. Yes, there are legendary figures like Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa, Han Solo, and Chewbacca but in your stories with your players, they are merely figures of authority while the PCs are the heroes.

"Luke Skywalker needs our help infiltrating this Imperial bunker! There's no way he can do this, the guards would recognize him in an instant. If we can't help him, no one can. He said this himself. We have to do this!"

"The system governor's daughter has been kidnapped! Leia Organa has heard about our casino heist on Coruscant and only a small strike team of our skill level can be relied upon with this task! It's up to us!"

"Lord Vader requests your services. Your past involvement with the rebel traitors Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa make you uniquely suited to carrying out the Emperor's plan. You would be wise to accept this. Ah, here's Lord Vader himself. You can give him your answer directly."

After all, if your player's characters weren't the best at what they do, they wouldn't be asked to do the jobs that they get asked to do. Even Darth Vader had to hire outside contractors in The Empire Strikes Back.

So, I support the notion of having even just nominally relevant stats for certain notable figures of the Star Wars canon. GMs don't necessarily need them so that their players can kill those NPCs although, I'm sure some groups would try just as they would try to kill the Tarrasque, or Cthulhu, or Baba Yaga (don't try, she's unkillable). Not just for combat, those stats also exist for flavor, for fun, and for role play.

After all, who wouldn't want to try to win an opposed Negotiation check with Darth Vader?