The Falcon DOES kind of make the Phantom lose some of it's sparkle.

Phantom: *Decloaks, moves 2, dial maneuver, barrel roll*

"HA! Now I am behind you, in range 1, ready to dominate and prove that my 40 points for one ship is worth it!!"

Falcon: *blindly sets maneuver dial*

"Potato."

Granted, but Howlrunner is the only 'real' option for swarms. sorry if my original post was a bit nooby, I haven't played any competitive games and, when playing as Imps, I do field Howlrunner with other TIEs. What I'm suggesting is further shared abilities of TIEs flying in swarms - which would be lost if formation is broken. With the Rebels due to get 2 huge ships, I think there's still scope for the concentrated swarm, but with abilities that, as a unit, will 'define' it's use against capital ships (eg a bonus to concentrated fire, such as an additional attack die for every 3 TIEs in your formation - reflecting a huge ship being that much easier to hit)

Granted, but Howlrunner is the only 'real' option for swarms. sorry if my original post was a bit nooby, I haven't played any competitive games and, when playing as Imps, I do field Howlrunner with other TIEs. What I'm suggesting is further shared abilities of TIEs flying in swarms - which would be lost if formation is broken. With the Rebels due to get 2 huge ships, I think there's still scope for the concentrated swarm, but with abilities that, as a unit, will 'define' it's use against capital ships (eg a bonus to concentrated fire, such as an additional attack die for every 3 TIEs in your formation - reflecting a huge ship being that much easier to hit)

Reverse Howlrunner? ships at range 1 reroll 1 defense dice when defending?

The Falcon DOES kind of make the Phantom lose some of it's sparkle.

Phantom: *Decloaks, moves 2, dial maneuver, barrel roll*

"HA! Now I am behind you, in range 1, ready to dominate and prove that my 40 points for one ship is worth it!!"

Falcon: *blindly sets maneuver dial*

"Potato."

Well... those 5 attack dice might at least make them slightly nervous?

Granted, but Howlrunner is the only 'real' option for swarms. sorry if my original post was a bit nooby, I haven't played any competitive games and, when playing as Imps, I do field Howlrunner with other TIEs. What I'm suggesting is further shared abilities of TIEs flying in swarms - which would be lost if formation is broken. With the Rebels due to get 2 huge ships, I think there's still scope for the concentrated swarm, but with abilities that, as a unit, will 'define' it's use against capital ships (eg a bonus to concentrated fire, such as an additional attack die for every 3 TIEs in your formation - reflecting a huge ship being that much easier to hit)

Big ships were thematically taken down by bombers making runs at them. If buffs are needed to take on the big ships, they should go there.

What I'm suggesting is further shared abilities of TIEs flying in swarms - which would be lost if formation is broken.

One option to represent that are black squadron pilots with wingman and perhaps other upgrades. Academy pilots are rookies. Formation flying is all they can do.

Granted, but Howlrunner is the only 'real' option for swarms. sorry if my original post was a bit nooby, I haven't played any competitive games and, when playing as Imps, I do field Howlrunner with other TIEs. What I'm suggesting is further shared abilities of TIEs flying in swarms - which would be lost if formation is broken. With the Rebels due to get 2 huge ships, I think there's still scope for the concentrated swarm, but with abilities that, as a unit, will 'define' it's use against capital ships (eg a bonus to concentrated fire, such as an additional attack die for every 3 TIEs in your formation - reflecting a huge ship being that much easier to hit)

Swarms don't need anything further. Howl + swarm is already the most efficient strategy in the game.

Anything more would obliterate any semblance of balance.

On the topic of what would make me happy:

I guess you could say my "gripe" is really with the YT1300. This topic has been discussed to death already but I have always felt that the greatest fumble in the game's design was adding a ship with a 360 degree range 1-3 primary weapon in a game that is otherwise all about planning and maneuvering. Certainly YT1300s are beatable, even by a small imperial fighter group, but so much of the engagement is decided by dice its still a major risk to even try it.

I agree, and I also feel like whenever I'm playing against a falcon, the game gets kind of boring.The game becomes not so much about maneuvering and strategy, but more about just pointing in the falcons direction and rolling again and again, or just trying to stay far way from it.

My biggest desire is for a way to play a 3-5 ship non-swarm, non-large base, fighter-based Imperial squadron without feeling like it's a huge risk or potentially uncompetitive. I like the imperial ship designs and the maneuverability of the TIEs/interceptors, but I'm not a huge fan of playing large base ships (nor do I feel like the firespray and a shuttle have any business flying in an imperial squadron outside of scenario play but that's fluff and not relevant to the topic) and although I'm glad bombers are in the game they aren't very interesting in a dogfight. Wave 4 seems to kind of be going in this direction but the tie defender is... weird, I will certainly be using them but we'll see if they actually end up being useful. The Phantom is really interesting but it seems very much in the same boat as the TIE interceptor: tricky to get a shot on but potentially fragile for its cost, and against a YT1300 much of its inherent advantages are lost.

I guess you could say my "gripe" is really with the YT1300. This topic has been discussed to death already but I have always felt that the greatest fumble in the game's design was adding a ship with a 360 degree range 1-3 primary weapon in a game that is otherwise all about planning and maneuvering. Certainly YT1300s are beatable, even by a small imperial fighter group, but so much of the engagement is decided by dice its still a major risk to even try it.

I don't really care about winning all the time and I'm not overly concerned with competitive balance but it is a bit of a nagging thing in the back of my mind that the most competitive builds in a dogfighting game tend to be massed firepower swarms and large bulky ships.

now that you mention it, I have to agree that really most of the problems about smaller imp builds being uncompetitive stem from the mere presense of the Falcon. Small ship small numbers imperial builds can and does fare pretty well against small ship rebel builds, and are pretty much on par with them actually. then comes along the Falcon and all these imperial builds are wiped until only the swarm is left

If you ask me, the easiest fix would be to declare the Falcon's 360deg firing a secondary weapon. Most of the deaths come from the range 1 4 dice attack, and at the same time making the 360deg a secondary weapon also means that falcon players still have some element of flying / pointing the firing arc. ie. avoid pointing at the enemy at range 3, try to point at the enemy at range 1, so there's also something good for the rebels with the same fix. Not exactly a nerf, not exactly a buff either, but now imperial small ship builds are much more viable, and rebel falcon builds are also more viable too

Hmmm, I've always thought the falcon being able to use it's full base for its turret was a bit much, maybe forcing it to measure from the center stand would be more helpful, realistic and eliminate a lot much of the advantage that gun gets.

Granted, but Howlrunner is the only 'real' option for swarms. sorry if my original post was a bit nooby, I haven't played any competitive games and, when playing as Imps, I do field Howlrunner with other TIEs. What I'm suggesting is further shared abilities of TIEs flying in swarms - which would be lost if formation is broken. With the Rebels due to get 2 huge ships, I think there's still scope for the concentrated swarm, but with abilities that, as a unit, will 'define' it's use against capital ships (eg a bonus to concentrated fire, such as an additional attack die for every 3 TIEs in your formation - reflecting a huge ship being that much easier to hit)

Big ships were thematically taken down by bombers making runs at them. If buffs are needed to take on the big ships, they should go there.

Exactly, my suggestion being something that ties ( forgive the pun), the 2 different ship types together that optimises the squad for that role

Granted, but Howlrunner is the only 'real' option for swarms. sorry if my original post was a bit nooby, I haven't played any competitive games and, when playing as Imps, I do field Howlrunner with other TIEs. What I'm suggesting is further shared abilities of TIEs flying in swarms - which would be lost if formation is broken. With the Rebels due to get 2 huge ships, I think there's still scope for the concentrated swarm, but with abilities that, as a unit, will 'define' it's use against capital ships (eg a bonus to concentrated fire, such as an additional attack die for every 3 TIEs in your formation - reflecting a huge ship being that much easier to hit)

Big ships were thematically taken down by bombers making runs at them. If buffs are needed to take on the big ships, they should go there.

Exactly, my suggestion being something that ties ( forgive the pun), the 2 different ship types together that optimises the squad for that role

Maybe a new missile that is REALLY effective against big ships (like 6 attack die and NOTHING can cancel the crits) but not against standard size ( 2 or 3 attack die).

Granted, but Howlrunner is the only 'real' option for swarms. sorry if my original post was a bit nooby, I haven't played any competitive games and, when playing as Imps, I do field Howlrunner with other TIEs. What I'm suggesting is further shared abilities of TIEs flying in swarms - which would be lost if formation is broken. With the Rebels due to get 2 huge ships, I think there's still scope for the concentrated swarm, but with abilities that, as a unit, will 'define' it's use against capital ships (eg a bonus to concentrated fire, such as an additional attack die for every 3 TIEs in your formation - reflecting a huge ship being that much easier to hit)

Big ships were thematically taken down by bombers making runs at them. If buffs are needed to take on the big ships, they should go there.

Exactly, my suggestion being something that ties ( forgive the pun), the 2 different ship types together that optimises the squad for that role

That would mean giving TIE's a Biggs-like rule to protect bombers, or allowing TIE's to make bomber ordnance more accurate.

What would make me happy would be for people to stop griping about the swarm. Yes it's pretty **** powerful, but there aren't as many Imperial options that work right now if you want to fly fighters. A good player can focus on Howlrunner, maybe use Biggs to break up my concentrated fire, and once I've lost Howlrunner those 2 dice attacks become really hard to seal the deal with. Very powerful up front, but also quite fragile.

As far as new stuff, hard to say what I want. I'm hoping that the defenders do change that. The price makes them hard to work into squads, but it might work out well. Hard to say. I'm excited for the variety and think it's hard to tell how it's all going to shake out at the moment. Not sure whether munitions failsafe will be as good as we hope for bombers, since a lot of the time you just get one damage with a missile, but I'll hope.

But the best option of all would be to give the Imperials the gunboat. One tough reliable fighter to anchor a squad would go a long way.

i'll take anything that allows those (include curse word) green dice to be rerolled, again today i had an interceptor get shot by a Y-wing with it's primary weapon at R3, he rolled a crit and a hit and i rolled blank,blank,blank,eyeball. Crit came up 2 dmg and boom. Squint goes bye

I really like the idea of the green dice re-roll. We get to re-roll attacks like crazy, and if the strength of the TIE is its maneuverability then there should be an ability to re-roll the greens.

What if that was the ability of the TIE Advanced - to allow any friendly ship within a certain range to reroll some defense dice? Many people have said the Advanced should be a command ship. Maybe this would fit that role.

Now THIS is a great idea.

Something to encourage the game back into an actual dogfight.

Basically the equivalent of Assault Missiles, but intended to deal with large base ships rather than swarms.

I want a Cannon upgrade that is for Avengers, Defenders, and Interceptors. The SFS Ls 9.3 Laser cannon. It counts as a primary weapon. Besides that you boost the damage by using defense dice up to that ships total defense. Base damage is three, if on an interceptor at range two while sacrificing all three defence dice you roll 6 attack dice.

Just for the hell of it the Rebs get their own version titled "Assault Laser Cannon" it can only be used on B-Wings, E-Wings, and Y-Wings.

Granted B and Y probably never had Assault Laser but its good enough for now to represent some of the Bs that had Turbo Lasers and the Y-Wing A4s that had Heavy-duty Longrange laser cannons.

I want a Cannon upgrade that is for Avengers, Defenders, and Interceptors. The SFS Ls 9.3 Laser cannon. It counts as a primary weapon. Besides that you boost the damage by using defense dice up to that ships total defense. Base damage is three, if on an interceptor at range two while sacrificing all three defence dice you roll 6 attack dice.

First, the TIE Advanced and TIE Interceptor don't have the cannon slot, so this won't work for them.

Second, I'm not 100% clear what you're suggesting. Is it that you can reduce your Agility until the end of the turn, and for each die you give up, you add one additional attack die? If so, that would shift the game drastically toward high-Agility ships that can take the upgrade; a group of PS1 Defenders can focus, shrug off enemy fire until the end of the round, and then start vaporizing stuff with their 6-die cannons with, effectively, no penalty. A group of PS8-9 Interceptors could launch an incredible strike at the top of the round, hopefully killing off enough enemy ships that the Agility penalty won't hurt them.

You'd be pretty likely to kill 2 X-wings per round, that way. Or 2-3 TIE Fighters. Or the Millennium Falcon. Every ship in the game would be vulnerable to dying on the first round of combat, and I suppose it does answer the question I initially posed in this thread--because on the Rebel side only E-wings would ever be competitive again.

Yeah, this isn't Attack Wing. Reliably throwing more than 4 dice is not a good idea. The Phantom's 4 Atk dice is a really, really big deal.

What if that was the ability of the TIE Advanced - to allow any friendly ship within a certain range to reroll some defense dice? Many people have said the Advanced should be a command ship. Maybe this would fit that role.

I REALLY like this idea.

There has been talk of a desire for a Capital Imperial ship like the Transport being released with a redone Advanced, and this is a great option to something like that.

I want a Cannon upgrade that is for Avengers, Defenders, and Interceptors. The SFS Ls 9.3 Laser cannon. It counts as a primary weapon. Besides that you boost the damage by using defense dice up to that ships total defense. Base damage is three, if on an interceptor at range two while sacrificing all three defence dice you roll 6 attack dice.

First, the TIE Advanced and TIE Interceptor don't have the cannon slot, so this won't work for them.

Second, I'm not 100% clear what you're suggesting. Is it that you can reduce your Agility until the end of the turn, and for each die you give up, you add one additional attack die? If so, that would shift the game drastically toward high-Agility ships that can take the upgrade; a group of PS1 Defenders can focus, shrug off enemy fire until the end of the round, and then start vaporizing stuff with their 6-die cannons with, effectively, no penalty. A group of PS8-9 Interceptors could launch an incredible strike at the top of the round, hopefully killing off enough enemy ships that the Agility penalty won't hurt them.

You'd be pretty likely to kill 2 X-wings per round, that way. Or 2-3 TIE Fighters. Or the Millennium Falcon. Every ship in the game would be vulnerable to dying on the first round of combat, and I suppose it does answer the question I initially posed in this thread--because on the Rebel side only E-wings would ever be competitive again.

Well I am very very sure that their will be a mod to alow Cannon upgrades in the future as well as missiles, torpedoes, maybe bombs, and systems.

As for you 2nd post, you are correct in your assumpiton for the rules I posted. I see no probelm with the firepower boost and that it makes all craft vulnrable to dieing in the first turn because lets be real, alot of the Imperial craft are already vunerable to dieing in the first turn. The only defense alot of the Imp ships have is their defense dice, the rebellon has some weapons that take away the ability to roll defense dice or negate evade tolkens.

With this weapon it will help take away the attributes that keep Rebel fighters alive and it fits with canon. Besides I also suggested the Alliance get the Assualt Laser which is essentully the same.

Yeah, this isn't Attack Wing. Reliably throwing more than 4 dice is not a good idea. The Phantom's 4 Atk dice is a really, really big deal.

You might not have noticed that we already got ships that do more than 4 dice. A Prototype Interceptor at its best can do 7 dice attacks in one volly, or 10 dice attack in two vollys per turn.

If you want legal examples, you can have a Phantom do 11 dice attack in two vollys in one turn, or going back with mission 7 from imp aces I could have a Phantom prototype do 17 dice attack with three vollys in one turn.

You might not have noticed that we already got ships that do more than 4 dice. A Prototype Interceptor at its best can do 7 dice attacks in one volly, or 10 dice attack in two vollys per turn.

If you want legal examples, you can have a Phantom do 11 dice attack in two vollys in one turn, or going back with mission 7 from imp aces I could have a Phantom prototype do 17 dice attack with three vollys in one turn.

Hold on, that's limited to a single specified mission, isn't it?

You might not have noticed that we already got ships that do more than 4 dice. A Prototype Interceptor at its best can do 7 dice attacks in one volly, or 10 dice attack in two vollys per turn.

If you want legal examples, you can have a Phantom do 11 dice attack in two vollys in one turn, or going back with mission 7 from imp aces I could have a Phantom prototype do 17 dice attack with three vollys in one turn.

Hold on, that's limited to a single specified mission, isn't it?

Yes it is. And it's only a prototype. Wait 'till the final product leaves the factory.

Well I am very very sure that their will be a mod to alow Cannon upgrades in the future as well as missiles, torpedoes, maybe bombs, and systems.

Wouldn't that erode differences between ships, though? And how would it be justified in-universe? As far as I know, for instance, there aren't any examples of Interceptors dropping seismic charges, or TIE Fighters carrying torpedoes.

As for you 2nd post, you are correct in your assumpiton for the rules I posted. I see no probelm with the firepower boost and that it makes all craft vulnrable to dieing in the first turn because lets be real, alot of the Imperial craft are already vunerable to dieing in the first turn.

There's a huge difference between losing a TIE Fighter in a single round and losing a Falcon in the same span--or, for that matter, a Firespray. You really don't see a problem with losing half of your list, potentially without even having the chance to fire back?

The only defense alot of the Imp ships have is their defense dice, the rebellon has some weapons that take away the ability to roll defense dice or negate evade tokens.

No weapon takes away the ability to roll defense dice, with the exception of the Imperial-exclusive bomb slot. You might mean the Autoblaster, but that's available to both factions--as is the Homing Missiles, which is the only weapon that negates evade tokens.

With this weapon it will help take away the attributes that keep Rebel fighters alive and it fits with canon. Besides I also suggested the Alliance get the Assualt Laser which is essentully the same.

TIE Interceptors wielding enormous cannons that vaporize X-wings in a single attack doesn't fit with canon, and your proposed Assault Laser was limited to the B-wing, Y-wing, and E-wing--which is why I said the E-wing would be the only Rebel fighter left.

Yeah, this isn't Attack Wing. Reliably throwing more than 4 dice is not a good idea. The Phantom's 4 Atk dice is a really, really big deal.

You might not have noticed that we already got ships that do more than 4 dice. A Prototype Interceptor at its best can do 7 dice attacks in one volly, or 10 dice attack in two vollys per turn.

If you want legal examples, you can have a Phantom do 11 dice attack in two vollys in one turn, or going back with mission 7 from imp aces I could have a Phantom prototype do 17 dice attack with three vollys in one turn.

The "Cutting the Cord" mission is not the same as an upgrade that's available in every format, and I have no idea what mechanism would allow a Phantom to do an 11-dice attack twice in one turn.

Maybe you mean a 5-dice attack and then a 6-dice attack, which you could get with Phantom + Opportunist + Gunner attacking at Range 1? But calling that an "11 dice attack" is really misleading, because you only get the second "volley" if you miss with the first (and that's unlikely to happen). Moreover, it will probably cost you somewhere between 40 and 50 points, the ship carrying the combo is quite fragile, and the combo itself is entirely situational (Range 1, target doesn't have a focus or evade token). That's really very different than an upgrade with better firepower that works at any range and could be assigned to any ship regardless of cost.

You might not have noticed that we already got ships that do more than 4 dice. A Prototype Interceptor at its best can do 7 dice attacks in one volly, or 10 dice attack in two vollys per turn.

If you want legal examples, you can have a Phantom do 11 dice attack in two vollys in one turn, or going back with mission 7 from imp aces I could have a Phantom prototype do 17 dice attack with three vollys in one turn.

Hold on, that's limited to a single specified mission, isn't it?

Yes but like I pointed out, most games that we play wont be in officail compititions, or at least for most people.

Well I am very very sure that their will be a mod to alow Cannon upgrades in the future as well as missiles, torpedoes, maybe bombs, and systems.

Wouldn't that erode differences between ships, though? And how would it be justified in-universe? As far as I know, for instance, there aren't any examples of Interceptors dropping seismic charges, or TIE Fighters carrying torpedoes.

As for you 2nd post, you are correct in your assumpiton for the rules I posted. I see no probelm with the firepower boost and that it makes all craft vulnrable to dieing in the first turn because lets be real, alot of the Imperial craft are already vunerable to dieing in the first turn.

There's a huge difference between losing a TIE Fighter in a single round and losing a Falcon in the same span--or, for that matter, a Firespray. You really don't see a problem with losing half of your list, potentially without even having the chance to fire back?

The only defense alot of the Imp ships have is their defense dice, the rebellon has some weapons that take away the ability to roll defense dice or negate evade tokens.

No weapon takes away the ability to roll defense dice, with the exception of the Imperial-exclusive bomb slot. You might mean the Autoblaster, but that's available to both factions--as is the Homing Missiles, which is the only weapon that negates evade tokens.

With this weapon it will help take away the attributes that keep Rebel fighters alive and it fits with canon. Besides I also suggested the Alliance get the Assualt Laser which is essentully the same.

TIE Interceptors wielding enormous cannons that vaporize X-wings in a single attack doesn't fit with canon, and your proposed Assault Laser was limited to the B-wing, Y-wing, and E-wing--which is why I said the E-wing would be the only Rebel fighter left.

Yeah, this isn't Attack Wing. Reliably throwing more than 4 dice is not a good idea. The Phantom's 4 Atk dice is a really, really big deal.

You might not have noticed that we already got ships that do more than 4 dice. A Prototype Interceptor at its best can do 7 dice attacks in one volly, or 10 dice attack in two vollys per turn.

If you want legal examples, you can have a Phantom do 11 dice attack in two vollys in one turn, or going back with mission 7 from imp aces I could have a Phantom prototype do 17 dice attack with three vollys in one turn.

The "Cutting the Cord" mission is not the same as an upgrade that's available in every format, and I have no idea what mechanism would allow a Phantom to do an 11-dice attack twice in one turn.

Maybe you mean a 5-dice attack and then a 6-dice attack, which you could get with Phantom + Opportunist + Gunner attacking at Range 1? But calling that an "11 dice attack" is really misleading, because you only get the second "volley" if you miss with the first (and that's unlikely to happen). Moreover, it will probably cost you somewhere between 40 and 50 points, the ship carrying the combo is quite fragile, and the combo itself is entirely situational (Range 1, target doesn't have a focus or evade token). That's really very different than an upgrade with better firepower that works at any range and could be assigned to any ship regardless of cost.

Ok I can't split this up to make it coharnet.

As for ordanice being used by TIE I think their are TIE Fighters that have used Proton Torpedoes in the Stele Chronicles. I know Interceptors used two racks of 6 Concussion missiles without any problems.

This might sound harsh but if you don't want your ships lost to my ships that yous should manuver them so they don't take hits.

Ok well I am not used to talking about Imperial ships having the auto-blaster because only the large craft have the cannon slot besides the Defender and I tend to never use large craft.

As for the Interceptor not having the fire power to vap an X-Wing with a single beam. I have alot of refrences for it actully doing so. If you were not here I accidentely caused a canon war over it that resulted in muliple people making personal attacks at me. I used so many refrences from multiple mediums including ROTJ that I took like 3-5 hours just to write it. This would also apply to the Avenger since they have the same cannon and reactor, it so far has shown to be the same with Defenders. The X1 supposedly has the SFS Ls-9.3 cannons even though other sources have it listed as having heavy blasters. Now even if it does have the 9.3s they wont be as powerful because they have been dramatically chopped down in size. The crossections show the 9.3 cannon running down all though way to the targeting computer in the structure, it possible goes further but they do not show what the crossections look like in the back part of the pannels of the Interceptor. From what is shown it has the Longest cannon and the cannon that has the most mass out of all the Civil war fighters.

Your correct in your assumption, that is why I wrote the total dice and then the ammount of vollys it takes to get them. Its not really missleading because all I need to do is miss with one attack dice from the first volly to get a whole new volly. I also would prefer to use Expose over Oppertunist.