Personal, I'm tired of swarms myself, and I'm an Imperial player. I wish FFG would raise the price of the Academy, Obsidian, and Black pilots by 1 point in hopes to water down the strength of swarms some, maybe go as far as raise all Tie Fighters by 1 point.

I get the feeling like FFG underpriced the low end Tie Fighters initially and don't want to fix the real problem so now they seem to be a lot more cautious as to what they give the Imperials, more so than the Rebels. It also starts to make it feel like everything else is over costed when you look at how much of a bargain the Tie Fighters are.

You can actually break it down like this. Red dice are good. The current metagame favors the player who can bring the most red dice to the table.

The cost of red dice in the game are:-

TIE Fighter/Interceptor/Z95 - 6 points/dice

Lambda - 7 points/dice

X-wing - 7 points/dice

TIE Phantom - 7.25 points/dice

B-wing - 7.33333 points/ dice

TIE Bomber - 8 points/ dice

A-wing - 8.5 points/dice (Drops to 7.5 points/dice after Aces)

Y-wing - 9 points/dice

E-wing - 9 points/dice

TIE Defender - 10 points/dice

TIE Advanced - 10.5 points/dice

Firespray - 11 points/dice

YT-1300 (ORS) - 13.5/dice

YT-1300 (Falcon) - 14+/ dice

HWK - 16/dice

Draw your own conclusions from that.

I guess it depends on your definition of Swarm is. You are talking about groups of 5. All those Missiles and Elite Talents add up. But the old 8 and 7 (w/Howlrunner) Swarms are going to face some very difficult situations.

EDIT: I was referring to the Z-95 with Munitions Failsafe. The Munitions Failsafe is still a waste of points on Blount.

Good call, my definition of a Swarm would be probably be the same about 5 or 6.

That would be an interesting game though, 5 or 6 Z-95s with Assault missiles against 5 or 6 Black Squadrons with Predator. Give or take some Assault Missles/Predator upgrades to fit the 6th pilot in.

I've been reading both the Defender thread and this thread, and I don't think it's worth my time to push back individually on all of the bad facts and unfounded implications going around on both of them at this point.

Instead, I'll put it this way. Here are the trends I see for Imperial ships in the recent and upcoming releases (meaning Imperial Aces and Wave 4):

TIE Fighter

• Not much going on here, although arguably TIE Fighters don't need any more help.

TIE Advanced

• Okay, admittedly not a lot going on here, either. The Advanced is probably going to have to wait for its own A-wing style fix.

TIE Interceptor

• Imperial Aces pilots generally represent a 1-point cost break on high-PS Interceptors.
• Interceptors have the only generic higher than PS4, and their PS6 generic has an EPT.
• Interceptors have the unique ability to stack durability modifications.
• Predator and Outmaneuver, released with the Defender, are both excellent talents for Interceptors.

Firespray-31

• New crew and new missiles generally increase the available options for the Firespray.
• Predator is very good for the Firespray, which suffers from being relatively easy to block.

Lambda -class Shuttle

• New crew generally increase the available options for the Lambda.

TIE Bomber

• Ion Pulse Missiles and Flechette Torpedoes make Bombers more able to function as control platforms.
• Ion Pulse Missiles and Flechette Torpedoes are also cheaper than existing ordnance, easing the burden of carrying multiple pieces of ordnance.
• Munitions Failsafe is a giant step forward for Bombers, since it substantially increases the reliability of ordnance.

Upcoming releases

• The Phantom is shaping up to be a violently angry ninja master, with massive maneuverability, 4 Attack, and up to 4 Agility. Free focus from the spoiled PS7 pilot is icing on the cake.
• The Defender may be slightly overcosted in general, but Delta Squadron + Ion Cannon is competitively priced with respect to the Bounty Hunter (in a metagame that includes lots of &$%! B-wings), and the pilot abilities are good enough that they will at least require table time before writing them off as non-competitive.

The flood of upgrades helps the Interceptor and Bomber, which are popularly perceived as needing the most help next to the Advanced. FFG's previews and leaks certainly make it look like the Empire is getting some sexy new toys, while the Rebellion is getting a pair of respectable workhorses. Apparently that's not enough.

The overall trend for Imperial design appears to be increase the number of viable swarm counters (e.g., Predator), while also increasing the number of viable alternatives to the swarm archetype (Interceptor boosts, Bomber boosts, additional expensive centerpieces like Rexler Brath). Apparently that's also not enough.

So the question posed in the thread title isn't rhetorical. If this forum's frustrated Imperial players were in charge of FFG's design team, what would change about those current trends? What kind of upgrades, specifically, would make you more comfortable with the game's direction?

I agree with your perspective here almost in its totality, but I do think there is one problem in terms of design space.

The droid upgrade.

Sure, the imperials have the bomb upgrade as unique to them, but it has a single function use. The droid slot allows for a lot more flexibility and tend to be cheaper for what they do. You can improve maneuver, shields, make your ship more agile, and on upcoming droids add stress to an opponent or even add an EPT to a pilot that doesn't have one.

There really isn't anything on an imperial ship that is going to make up for this kind of flexibility. Maybe they need to add a "Dark Side" upgrade or something to certain ships, I don't know, but the droid is providing them with some design flexibility on some of the rebellion ships that just doesn't exist on the Empire.

I agree with you about the droid upgrade, there's no Empire equivalent at all.

Well, I tend to think that the turret is an exclusive republic weapon just like the bomb is an exclusive Empire weapon.

I do not equate the droids to the bomb because the droids are more like modifications that are republic specific and the Empire does not have anything like that at all.

-shuttle abilities all have range one, hawks all have range three. Why?

First of all they don't. Yorr is range 2 and Kagi gets the whole **** table.

2ndly shuttles are a large base and so their range 1 & 2 abilities get pretty reasonable coverage.

Thirdly, shuttles are extremely durable by cost. They can get into the thick of things and slug it out. The HWK is reasonably fragile for the cost of it's named pilots - it prefers to chill on the edges of a battle and support.

Fourth, when was the last time you saw an actual HWK in competitive play?

A few key things you are missing from the shuttle hwk comparison is the shuttles dial. Oh, and the 5 pt difference between base costs (admittedly the cost of the cannon a hwk will need), and the large base with such a bad dial, and the rebel unique crews, and the part about the hwk havin 2 defense dice.

A few hwk lists scored store championships. If I was rebel inclined I'd have taken a Roark list myself.

Personal, I'm tired of swarms myself, and I'm an Imperial player. I wish FFG would raise the price of the Academy, Obsidian, and Black pilots by 1 point in hopes to water down the strength of swarms some, maybe go as far as raise all Tie Fighters by 1 point.

I get the feeling like FFG underpriced the low end Tie Fighters initially and don't want to fix the real problem so now they seem to be a lot more cautious as to what they give the Imperials, more so than the Rebels. It also starts to make it feel like everything else is over costed when you look at how much of a bargain the Tie Fighters are.

I really really want to say "you're clearly flying wrong against the swarm". I really want to say "stop whining about swarm". I want to say "just stay out of thier arcs". Too bad I can't "say" anything on the Internet. That and I'd start sounding like a Rebel {scum}.

And there are a few Shuttles in the winner's circle as well.

I agree with you about the droid upgrade, there's no Empire equivalent at all.

Well, I tend to think that the turret is an exclusive republic weapon just like the bomb is an exclusive Empire weapon.

I do not equate the droids to the bomb because the droids are more like modifications that are republic specific and the Empire does not have anything like that at all.

I think it's a gap that will become more noticeable as more droids come out.

Personal, I'm tired of swarms myself, and I'm an Imperial player. I wish FFG would raise the price of the Academy, Obsidian, and Black pilots by 1 point in hopes to water down the strength of swarms some, maybe go as far as raise all Tie Fighters by 1 point.

I get the feeling like FFG underpriced the low end Tie Fighters initially and don't want to fix the real problem so now they seem to be a lot more cautious as to what they give the Imperials, more so than the Rebels. It also starts to make it feel like everything else is over costed when you look at how much of a bargain the Tie Fighters are.

Cannot. Unlike. Post. 1st. Paragraph. Makes. Me. Need. Unlike. Button.

I really really want to say "you're clearly flying wrong against the swarm". I really want to say "stop whining about swarm". I want to say "just stay out of thier arcs". Too bad I can't "say" anything on the Internet. That and I'd start sounding like a Rebel {scum}.

Didn't say I lose to them, much

Kind of like how I'm tired of seeing B-Wings, the same thing kind of goes. I'm getting a little bored with having to include them in my list a large majority of the time or seeing them on the table in Swarms.

I agree with you about the droid upgrade, there's no Empire equivalent at all.

Well, I tend to think that the turret is an exclusive republic weapon just like the bomb is an exclusive Empire weapon.

I do not equate the droids to the bomb because the droids are more like modifications that are republic specific and the Empire does not have anything like that at all.

I'm actually happy with the Empire overall, but something flexible like the droid slot opens up design space and could have allowed options in helping a ship like the Advanced out.

I think it's a gap that will become more noticeable as more droids come out.

From a fluff perspective, Imperial fighters don't have a droid slot because they are a significant extra cost.

The only reason why the Rebellion had so many droids was because they were re-purposed from civilian uses since rebel starfighters had to rely on pretty much obsolete/junk computer systems and needed the extra processing power that the droids provided. In particular when calculating hyperspace jumps since the Rebellion had far fewer capital ships than the empire and had to use their starfighters as their force projection substitute.

Plus most of them were probably stolen. Apparently being filthy terrorist SPACE gypsies has its perks. Who knew?

Unless Disney drastically reworks the underlying universe I wouldn't count on getting imperial astromechs anytime soon.

I agree with you about the droid upgrade, there's no Empire equivalent at all.

Well, I tend to think that the turret is an exclusive republic weapon just like the bomb is an exclusive Empire weapon.

I do not equate the droids to the bomb because the droids are more like modifications that are republic specific and the Empire does not have anything like that at all.

I'm actually happy with the Empire overall, but something flexible like the droid slot opens up design space and could have allowed options in helping a ship like the Advanced out.

I think it's a gap that will become more noticeable as more droids come out.

From a fluff perspective, Imperial fighters don't have a droid slot because they are a significant extra cost.

The only reason why the Rebellion had so many droids was because they were re-purposed from civilian uses since rebel starfighters had to rely on pretty much obsolete/junk computer systems and needed the extra processing power that the droids provided. In particular when calculating hyperspace jumps since the Rebellion had far fewer capital ships than the empire and had to use their starfighters as their force projection substitute.

Plus most of them were probably stolen. Apparently being filthy terrorist SPACE gypsies has its perks. Who knew?

Unless Disney drastically reworks the underlying universe I wouldn't count on getting imperial astromechs anytime soon.

Again. Not true at all.

Rebel ships like the X-Wing and Y-Wing are NOT repurposed rebel ships with garbage avionics. They are fighters. Period.

And the reason that rebel ships have astromechs is more likely due to the fact that Republic ships had astromechs before them.

Not because of bad avionics, but because it made sense to the design philosophies of the period.

I would like FFG to stop making overpriced cards for Imps. That is all.

I agree with you about the droid upgrade, there's no Empire equivalent at all.

Well, I tend to think that the turret is an exclusive republic weapon just like the bomb is an exclusive Empire weapon.

I do not equate the droids to the bomb because the droids are more like modifications that are republic specific and the Empire does not have anything like that at all.

I'm actually happy with the Empire overall, but something flexible like the droid slot opens up design space and could have allowed options in helping a ship like the Advanced out.

I think it's a gap that will become more noticeable as more droids come out.

From a fluff perspective, Imperial fighters don't have a droid slot because they are a significant extra cost.

The only reason why the Rebellion had so many droids was because they were re-purposed from civilian uses since rebel starfighters had to rely on pretty much obsolete/junk computer systems and needed the extra processing power that the droids provided. In particular when calculating hyperspace jumps since the Rebellion had far fewer capital ships than the empire and had to use their starfighters as their force projection substitute.

Plus most of them were probably stolen. Apparently being filthy terrorist SPACE gypsies has its perks. Who knew?

Unless Disney drastically reworks the underlying universe I wouldn't count on getting imperial astromechs anytime soon.

Again. Not true at all.

Rebel ships like the X-Wing and Y-Wing are NOT repurposed rebel ships with garbage avionics. They are fighters. Period.

And the reason that rebel ships have astromechs is more likely due to the fact that Republic ships had astromechs before them.

Not because of bad avionics, but because it made sense to the design philosophies of the period.

A lot of the early X-wings were cobbled together from Z-95 parts. You need to remember that the T-65 was not a mass production model until after Incom defected. And even then 'mass produced' was pretty much assembling them with whatever parts they could steal/smuggle for a really long time. The Z-95 did not have hyperdrive capabilities standard the quickest way to get that done is via astromech.

The Y-wing was an old design going into the civil war. By then the empire already favored the TIE design philosophy. Therefore no Imperial astromechs.

Best one yet! A fly casual rule that states whenever a rebel player one shots an imperial ship they owe the imperial player a beer! If it's an interceptor: 2 beers. If it's Soontir with evade and focus at range 3 through a rock you owe the Imperial a six pack.

That would make me happy. And virtually ensure I never ever play rebels again.

Best one yet! A fly casual rule that states whenever a rebel player one shots an imperial ship they owe the imperial player a beer! If it's an interceptor: 2 beers. If it's Soontir with evade and focus at range 3 through a rock you owe the Imperial a six pack.

That would make me happy. And virtually ensure I never ever play rebels again.

I actually support this idea ten fold. I like both sides, but with this ruling, I would fly solely empire. (My favorite ship being the Interceptor)

@sonova

That's still ridiculous to say.

If the Y-Wing needs an Astromech because it's avionics are too old to work properly, then why was it designed with one in the first place? It wasn't too old back in the Republic and they still wanted it to have one...

If I recall correctly, the real reason that they have Astromechs is to calculate hyperspace jumps. Ships without one could only remember a couple of coordinates. Most Imperial ships had no hyperdrive and that's the reason they weren't outfitted with them.

We need teeshirts with the fly casual rules on the back. I say the beer one is rule 3b: the # of blanks an interceptor usually rolls to get one shot, the ship that is the most likely offender is the bwing...

Here's the rub for me, whenever I want to create an Imperial non-swarm tournament list, then I have to come up with "one-trick-pony" lists or fly all aces and pray to the dice gods.

Whenever I sit down and do it with rebels I can grab any combination of their top tier ships (e.g. Falcon, B, YT, soon to be A) and wreck face (so to speak). They have the counters to our generally superior mobility, they have the synergy, and the shields (that will thankfully change). On top of that, they have the strongest control option in the game in the form of Biggs.

Being an Imperial player at heart, and one who doesn't like to fly swarms - this, this annoys me.

As a rebel, start with Biggs ...

As an imperial, start with Howlrunner ...

... and you can't go wrong*

*of course you can

TIE Bomber

• Ion Pulse Missiles and Flechette Torpedoes make Bombers more able to function as control platforms.
• Ion Pulse Missiles and Flechette Torpedoes are also cheaper than existing ordnance, easing the burden of carrying multiple pieces of ordnance.
• Munitions Failsafe is a giant step forward for Bombers, since it substantially increases the reliability of ordnance.

Imperial Aces fixed most of my beef with Interceptors -if in a costly manner- but the current upgrades for Bombers don't really get me excited yet. They're a step forward, but not a very big one.

IPM's are awesome. Great for setting up enemy ships for bombing runs (even if that's going to be tricky to use) and synergize really well with Munitions Failsafe. At 3 points they're also decently costed.

Flechette Torpedoes on the other hand... are not that great. Sure, they're cheap, but for 3 damage it's only one pip better than a normal attack. And the Imperials don't really have much synergy with causing stress. It'd be better if it was multi-use, but as its single-use its a point-filler more than something I'd build into my lists from the core, really.

Munitions Failsafe is a **** good upgrade for missiles that have secondary effects on-hit (like Assault and Ion Pulse), but it lacks something that makes the remaining ordnance truly worth their points. A Proton Torpedo that hits for 1 still only hits for 1, despite having cost you 4 points.

This is what I think is the flaw of ordnance in general. They are extremely costly to take, often costing 4 to 6 points, but they rarely do their points in damage. Because to fire one you need a Target Lock. Which means you can't spend that Target Lock on rerolls. The need for a Target Lock also lowers the chance you will have a focus token at the same time, which further reduces the reliability of ordnance. In addition to all these weaknesses, ordnance is single-fire. Even with Munitions Failsafe, one flimsy roll on an ATP sees 5 of those 6 points spend on it go down the drain, unused.

For a TIE bomber, ordnance is what they're made for. Without it they're rather mediocre dogfighters at best, who's only saving grace is a high hull value. Because of that, the base-cost of a Bomber should always include the thought that it will be taking ordnance. Jonus is a good help, but due to his cost, his effect being R1 and that he can't buff himself, you are severely limited in your choices of tactics and ordnance when taking him. In my opinion this means Bombers need an Ace-like title that either:

• Ensures that the Bomber will be able to deliver a good part of the ordnance's punch (possibly through allowing free focus actions when firing secondaries, or allowing Bombers to use their Target Locks to both fire and modify).
• Give Bombers the option to use their ordnance repeatedly (this would mitigate the ordnance's statistically lower chance of success with repeated attempts).
• Cut the cost of ordnance for them so they can fill their slots (which will allow them to fire more ordnance throughout the game, as well as further increase their utility and keep their utility useful throughout most of the game, if not entirely).

A loaded bomber is a pricey ship. I'd like to see them cause that pricey damage more reliably, rather than pray to the dice gods whether I win or lose.

Best one yet! A fly casual rule that states whenever a rebel player one shots an imperial ship they owe the imperial player a beer! If it's an interceptor: 2 beers. If it's Soontir with evade and focus at range 3 through a rock you owe the Imperial a six pack.

That would make me happy. And virtually ensure I never ever play rebels again.

Or be sober, if you're anything like me. Dark Curse? With a stealth device? Undamaged? Behind a rock? Boooooooom!

And in the end, I think the effects Predator will have on the meta heavily favors the Imperials. The upgrading of pilot skill on your base ships favors the Imperials, since they have the most generic ships with an elite talent.

Not to mention the fact that most rebel ships have Target Lock, whilst most Imperial ships don't (having Barrel Roll instead).

Another thing that should be noted is that it's possible to take a group of Black Squadrons each with Predator and then they never really have to rely on Howlrunner anymore.

At a cost of being only one point short of Howlrunners price each, I should point out. Not that cost is really an issue with Black Squadron.

It's more a case of "how many defenders are you prepared to buy for this?!?!?"

Not that I can complain, I guess. My first list was three bounty hunters, so I get to fly up to six Stealth Device-armed TIE fighters.

But yes, I'm a massive fan of DS-61. Equally, A pilot with Outmanouvre might well be nice - put him on the opposite flank to Backstabber and let the rebel scum decide who they'd rather be hoofed in the vulnerable bits by...

I agree with you about the droid upgrade, there's no Empire equivalent at all.

Well, I tend to think that the turret is an exclusive republic weapon just like the bomb is an exclusive Empire weapon.

I do not equate the droids to the bomb because the droids are more like modifications that are republic specific and the Empire does not have anything like that at all.

I'm actually happy with the Empire overall, but something flexible like the droid slot opens up design space and could have allowed options in helping a ship like the Advanced out.

I think it's a gap that will become more noticeable as more droids come out.

From a fluff perspective, Imperial fighters don't have a droid slot because they are a significant extra cost.

The only reason why the Rebellion had so many droids was because they were re-purposed from civilian uses since rebel starfighters had to rely on pretty much obsolete/junk computer systems and needed the extra processing power that the droids provided. In particular when calculating hyperspace jumps since the Rebellion had far fewer capital ships than the empire and had to use their starfighters as their force projection substitute.

Plus most of them were probably stolen. Apparently being filthy terrorist SPACE gypsies has its perks. Who knew?

Unless Disney drastically reworks the underlying universe I wouldn't count on getting imperial astromechs anytime soon.

You missed my point about game design. It's not a fluff perspective it's a design perspective. It doesn't have to be a droid card for empire. It's just a flexible, unique upgrade slot that the Empire has no access to at all. They don't need a droid car, but it's a pronounced squad building difference with no counterpart whatsoever.

actually we need a droid car.

what I miss in this game, and that may be just for fluff, is The Force.

I know its already too late, because Luke & Vader are already in the game without any mention of the force

Or are their skills resembling their force? I don't know. However their special abilities don't really seem much more powerful than those of any other pilots.

It would be nice if Vader could choke (stress) an enemy in range 1.

But back to topic.

As some here already mentioned... A lot of empire ships rely on ordinance. And plainly, ordinance sucks at the moment.

Make it so. that a tie-bomber only has to play half the cost for rockets/torpedoes.

Or gets one free. It his primary role.

On the other hand, add an upgrade that gives +1 agi against rockets/torpedoes.

Or ECM which prevents from being target-locked. Or I don't know.

It really comes down to: if you want to fly empire, you have to take a lot of ships. Because: only with luck no ship will explode at first contact.

Ofc i can play with 3 bounty hunters, alternatively. Its just on the rebell side I have no problem building a squad with any ship I like (except HWK) and be pretty successful.

Imperials get shafted cause either your ships explode randomly at first contact, or are useless (bomber/advanced) in many circumstances

Just my feelings. Honestly, I enjoy flying both sides.

It would be nice if Vader could choke (stress) an enemy in range 1.

Oh, he does worse than that. When you take him as crew he does one critical damage to an enemy you attacked. Yes, at the expense of two on your own, but in a 10 THP Lambda that's worth it.

6-9 point TIEs? That would make me happy, Rebel scum not so much.