I've been reading both the Defender thread and this thread, and I don't think it's worth my time to push back individually on all of the bad facts and unfounded implications going around on both of them at this point.

Instead, I'll put it this way. Here are the trends I see for Imperial ships in the recent and upcoming releases (meaning Imperial Aces and Wave 4):

TIE Fighter

• Not much going on here, although arguably TIE Fighters don't need any more help.

• Okay, admittedly not a lot going on here, either. The Advanced is probably going to have to wait for its own A-wing style fix.

• Imperial Aces pilots generally represent a 1-point cost break on high-PS Interceptors.
• Interceptors have the only generic higher than PS4, and their PS6 generic has an EPT.
• Interceptors have the unique ability to stack durability modifications.
• Predator and Outmaneuver, released with the Defender, are both excellent talents for Interceptors.

• New crew and new missiles generally increase the available options for the Firespray.
• Predator is very good for the Firespray, which suffers from being relatively easy to block.

• New crew generally increase the available options for the Lambda.

• Ion Pulse Missiles and Flechette Torpedoes make Bombers more able to function as control platforms.
• Ion Pulse Missiles and Flechette Torpedoes are also cheaper than existing ordnance, easing the burden of carrying multiple pieces of ordnance.
• Munitions Failsafe is a giant step forward for Bombers, since it substantially increases the reliability of ordnance.

• The Phantom is shaping up to be a violently angry ninja master, with massive maneuverability, 4 Attack, and up to 4 Agility. Free focus from the spoiled PS7 pilot is icing on the cake.
• The Defender may be slightly overcosted in general, but Delta Squadron + Ion Cannon is competitively priced with respect to the Bounty Hunter (in a metagame that includes lots of &$%! B-wings), and the pilot abilities are good enough that they will at least require table time before writing them off as non-competitive.

The overall trend for Imperial design appears to be increase the number of viable swarm counters (e.g., Predator), while also increasing the number of viable alternatives to the swarm archetype (Interceptor boosts, Bomber boosts, additional expensive centerpieces like Rexler Brath). Apparently that's also not enough.

So the question posed in the thread title isn't rhetorical. If this forum's frustrated Imperial players were in charge of FFG's design team, what would change about those current trends? What kind of upgrades, specifically, would make you more comfortable with the game's direction?

I want more cooperative effects in my Imperials. Yes, it has mostly been the case where the Rebels have the more cooperative effects (ie. Garven, Dutch, Lando etc) supported with a few aces (eg. Wedge, Luke), while Imperials have mostly selfish effects (uh.... just about everybody) except for that 1 Howlrunner.

Currently, FFG has given the Imperials more cooperative effects (eg. Carnor Jax, Jonus, the named Shuttles), but none of them are on the same level of usefulness as Howlrunner, which meant that we are unable to really pursue competitive builds that do not revolve around a TIE swarm. Meanwhile, FFG keeps giving Rebels more and more cooperative effects (eg. the Z95s), and on top of that give them disgustingly strong aces (eg. Keyan, Wes). On the Imperial side, we get aces with effects that are pretty good actually, but completely pale in comparison with their Rebel counterparts (eg. Soontir vs Keyan, Turr vs Jake)

Moreover, the Rebel's have always enjoyed very stable firepower, thanks to the sharing of actions (or rather TL + F tokens), whereas the Imperials do not have such synergistic effects outside of Howlrunner and Jonus. And Jonus means you have to build extremely specific builds centered around secondary weapons, which currently arent as good as FFG would like to think (else we would see a lot more bombers in championship lists), so really we are stuck with Howlrunner, not because she is good (yes, she is good), but rather because we really do not have any other choice.

If FFG wants Imperial players to fly lesser number of ships, sure! Give us something like Kyle Katarn, Jan Ors, maybe Dutch even, and you will see single strong ships get played more often than a swarm, since these effects pump up a specific ship, unlike Howlrunner. Maybe something that can hand out evade tokens? Also, do something about the defense dice. Rebels can reroll + focus / other modifiers their attack dices until they are virtually guaranteed a full string of hits everytime, whereas as Imperials we are simply told to take 3-4 green dice, add a focus token, and pray hard you do not get that many blanks or you are dead. And they want us to play with the same / lesser amount of ships? With lesser total hp? Ridiculous!

So ok, they gave us some support in the form of the named Shuttle pilots. Jendon can only be used up to range 1 and he is stuck in a Shuttle, vs Dutch whose effect extends out to range 2, is in a small ship so it is a lot easier to fly him together with the rest of your squadron. And I have not brought in other major factors such as the Shuttle being complete @$%#%$#$ (yes, some would disagree, but the fact still remains that the Shuttle is very difficult to fly), the Ywing having ion support, Dutch actually being cheaper than Jendon (both cost the same, but when everything is relatively cheaper on the Imperial side, your point of comparison would be different. Rebels you are usually comparing to a rookie Xwing (21pts), whilst on the Imperial side you are usually comparing against TIE fighters (12pts).), Dutch being A LOT more user friendly, and so on. Then we have Yorr, whose effect blocks Soontir's and Lorrir's. Finally, we are left with Kagi, who is rather expensive, and your opponent would simply focus instead of TL.

EDIT to add more stuff:

right now, 1 rookie Xwing = 21 points. 21 points can get me an alpha TIEint + hull upgrade. 4 hp + 3 agi is roughly 5 hp 2 agi, so you can say they are quite similar right now in terms of stats. The only difference? the Rebels have so much supportive effects within that same ship, while the Imperials are so solitary in nature they cant help each other even if they wanted to, and that's why we really have problems with smaller builds. Then we are left only with the swarm, because it is the only build that has such synergistic effects, and Rebel players complain that we only play swarms. The truth is honestly, the swarm is the only playable build, and the other builds that the Imperials can come up with are usually too fragile, too dicey (bad agility rolls during the early rounds = Good Game)

On top of that, there are so much more upgrades that are unique to the Rebels. Take the entire line of astromech upgrades and turret weapons for example, not to mention crew members like chewbacca, nien nunb, luke skywalker. On the Imperial side, we only have Darth Vader, Rebel Captive, mines, and...... that's it. Everything else is shared, and can be shared. Just by this alone, the Imperials already have lesser stuff to work with, and also since most of these named upgrades happen to be very powerful (R2D2, R5D8 and Chewbacca are currently the only ways to regenerate hp, and all 3 are not available to the Imperials), the Imperials also have a reduced quality of upgrades to choose from.

At this point, I don't thing anything short of something that says "you win" will make some of the fanboys happy. There are some really, really good stuff for Imperials.

I would add that for the TIE FIghter, the Black Squadron Pilot is the best option for Wingman.

Keyan and Wes disgustingly strong? Really? Keyan is strong no doubt, but the sky is falling reaction is so overboard. Wes is good, but is the same cost as Wedge. Is he Wedge strong?

So the question posed in the thread title isn't rhetorical. If this forum's frustrated Imperial players were in charge of FFG's design team, what would change about those current trends?

I agree with everything you are saying but I will still answer your question.

My biggest beef is with the way the Aces packs are being handled. They seem to have taken an okay Empire ship and gave it some interesting new pilots. Then they take an okay Rebel ship and totally redesign it, plus take another hugely popular Rebel ship and give it even more options. It just doesn't feel like a balanced release.

I would be curious to know if they designed them at the same time and did it this way on purpose, or if they learned from the imp aces when designing the Rebel aces.

I think that the percieved imbalance is occuring with how upgrades for specific ships and pilot abilities are looking better for one faction than they are for the other.

The Imperial Aces allowed more mod uprades while giving a better mid range pilot, the PS6 Royal Guard.

On the other hand, in Rebel aces the A wing got cheaper and could double up on elite pilot skills.

Winner, Rebels.

The pilot abilities always seem like if its good, its on a rebel pilot. If its good, but has a weird quirk, it goes on an Empire pilot.

The new tie defender shows that skew with one of its pilot abilities, where you can do a really cool thing only if one of your wingmen has a TL on your target. Cool, but with a quirk.

Upgrades and ordinance don't count as they can be used by both factions so it's a wash for balance.

Then again, maybe its just me...

I thought synergy wasn't all whats cracked up to be, once you lose the ship your kinda screwed. I thought it was better to have strong ships that can handle stuff by themselves, Like bwings/xwings.

Not alot of people run garven/dutch even tho its a good combo and works decently, once you lose dutch or garven it kinda just falls apart.

Even the HWK's pilots are questionable, Sure they have cooll abilities that are good but it doesnt beat taking as many bwings/ xwings as possible.

The situation is similar to when the shuttle came out, it was slow and too hard to fly, etc. Just wait until a good player takes it for a spin, gives it a cute nickname (if the shuttle is the white space whale is this a space dolphin, or swordfish?), and does well, then people will jump on the bandwagon. The complainers are all talk until they see someone else brave enough to crack the code then they are all over the new list.

I am not unhappy. I need nothing. I think with wave 4, the Empire will address those few short comings it may have.

I fly Empire almost all the time and other than a few enemy builds, I'm not having any problems and no, I do not fly a swarm

I'm going to go with nothing, short of a crit cards that reads "U WIN ALL TEH GAMEZ!!!11 LOL", will make some of the hardcores happy. I agree with some of the concepts that Vorpal Sword posted, but not everything is a weakness. It's just a difference.

The root of the issue, in my mind, is that there's an entirely different way to play the Imperials than the Rebels. If you read the fluff on the FFG posts about each ship, it becomes apparent. Imperial ships are about order, doctrine and formations; Rebels are all DIY'ers. Trying to fly an Imperial list exactly the same way a Rebel list is flown will end in defeat, quickly and painfully. Trying to joust against an X or B with a squint is a bad tactical decision and anyone who does it should have their ships taken away from them and be sent to Time Out. Using the squint's extreme flight agility to get out of arc is the strength. Use it.

I also don't understand, as I mentioned in another thread, folks who don't play both fleets. It's a huge tactical and strategic advantage once you really understand what each ship is capable of, not just on the turn you're playing but also guessing two or three turns where that ship will end up. If someone only plays the Empire, and never fiddles around with building Rebel lists or flying them, then they're going to lose.

/rant

It's in the nature of the Dark Side to always want more power .

Once you choose to walk the Imperial path, there can be no happiness.

Only corruption and despair.

The situation is similar to when the shuttle came out, it was slow and too hard to fly, etc. Just wait until a good player takes it for a spin, gives it a cute nickname (if the shuttle is the white space whale is this a space dolphin, or swordfish?), and does well, then people will jump on the bandwagon. The complainers are all talk until they see someone else brave enough to crack the code then they are all over the new list.

Don't know what to tell the pro rebel people but so many people see the imbalance with releases that are coming. It's all over the boards and honestly these imperial previews haven't really changed anything. The defender isn't going to change the imbalance, it's overpriced and costs as much as a firespray. Honestly I think the swarm was to powerful early on and ffg just swung the nerf bat way to hard. The last two previews specially called out the swarm build. The z95 directly had abilities targeted at it and now this preview try's to push people away by stating the defender will replace it, while adding in even more anti swarm EPTs. It's obvious ffg has gone overboard while trying to balance.

The situation is similar to when the shuttle came out, it was slow and too hard to fly, etc. Just wait until a good player takes it for a spin, gives it a cute nickname (if the shuttle is the white space whale is this a space dolphin, or swordfish?), and does well, then people will jump on the bandwagon. The complainers are all talk until they see someone else brave enough to crack the code then they are all over the new list.

Not entirely true, and it depends somewhat on the meta in that particular area. For example, after our biggest tournament event, there are a lot of players using the Rebel Operative HWK and Dutch + R5K6 in particular, due to the winning list having both of them included in it. On the other hand, the Awing has been featured in the top list as well for other subsequent tournaments, but there was no jump in Awing users. Why? Perhaps because the community on the whole has already written off the Awing as being useless, but are still rather receptive to the HWK and R5K6 as they have not been played that often, vs being played a lot of times and proven to suck. Take the case of the TIEadvanced. Even if 4x TIEadv + missiles (NOT Darth Vader, he is so strong he should be considered as flying a separate ship) were to be the #1 list for any tournament, I highly doubt that people would flock over to the TIEadv. Similarly, the players in my area have written off the Shuttle (everybody here knows the trick about sending 1 ship behind the Shuttle, and it would be completely safe), so the likelihood of the community adopting it is very very low.

EDIT: also, what Gungo said above

I have no idea why people believe the Lambda is not competitive.

Every time I put one on the table it absolutely dominates the board.

Kagi and Jendon are monsters .

The non-swarm imperials rely on their maneuverability to succeed. Turret weapons nerf that one advantage outright. The only thing ffg could do would be to ban turret weapons, and that's just not going to happen.

We as imperial players just need to build better squads and fly better, myself included, if we expect to squash the rebellion.

Some kind of equivalent to R2-D6 would be nice. Requiring PS4 or higher to get EPTs on the PS5 fighter and interceptor pilots, as well as the PS4 bombers.

Firespray-31

• New crew and new missiles generally increase the available options for the Firespray.
• Predator is very good for the Firespray, which suffers from being relatively easy to block.

Also new Torpedoes (Slave 1 Title) and new bombs, if there ever are any. We know about Flechette torpedoes, but no new bombs this wave.

The non-swarm imperials rely on their maneuverability to succeed. Turret weapons nerf that one advantage outright. The only thing ffg could do would be to ban turret weapons, and that's just not going to happen.

We as imperial players just need to build better squads and fly better, myself included, if we expect to squash the rebellion.

I don't particularly agree with this actually. The Imperial ships are a lot more maneuverable than the Rebels, and the Rebels have an extremely hard time trying to catch a TIEint on PTL with roll + boost, even more so when you have lesser number of ships (ie. 2-3 or less). Even when they finally do manage to catch the TIEint in their firing arcs, it would likely turtle up with focus + evade. Hence, the Rebels really do need their turret weapons.

Moreover, the ion turret can only be used at range 1-2, only deals 1 damage regardless of what happens. The blaster turret is significantly harder to use, only usable at range 1-2, and can only do a maximum of a string of 3 hits. Hence, they really aren't that strong as to "outright nerf that one advantage"

The only turret that does nerf the TIEint outright is the Falcon's, so that would be the only thing I would ban / do something about

Predator is nasty against the swarm. Sure. But I do find it interesting how much Outmaneuver hurts turrets is being glossed over.

I do have to laugh at the lambda not being competitive. It is showing up enough, that I think it does have some role in competitive play. It just isn't the main focus, or spammed, which seems to be the litmus test many use on whether a ship is good or not.

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

I want to see them have something that protects their high agility ships from turrets. I dislike that the second I run up against one of the many talented and dedicated falcon afficonados in my meta I cannot hope to have fun with my Interceptors or mini Tie Swarms. Outmanuevering an opponent is the best feeling this game has to offer and you can't outmanuever the falcon, only hope to pull off enough shots to tatake it down before it kills me. I get that Ties have numbers, but Interceptors have crap against a good Falcon. They can win, sometimes. But it won't be because of skill. It will be a simple messy jousting bleh, or maybe forcing a Falcon onto an asteroid long enough to kill it.

Predator is nasty against the swarm. Sure. But I do find it interesting how much Outmaneuver hurts turrets is being glossed over.

But the turret ships already have only 1 agility (except the HWK), and 1 agi vs 0 agi against 1 attack from 1 ship is like..... not too much of a difference to be honest.

Here's a question to all imperial players: What can you do about it.?

Answer: Not a **** thing.

This goes for the rebel player's as well.

Contrary to popular belief this game and its future expansions are not open to some democratic voting , and then FFG goes back to the design table and comes up with something that makes us all scream with joy and pee our pants.

I understand that there's frustration with some things. You get that in every game. But geez, cant we just be happy with the fact that we even have this game to play?

Here's another question, think hard on this before you answer.

If this is the only thing in your whole life that happens to you, from here on out how well off will you be?

yea my aunt asked me that question yesterday......she just turned 109.

I am really happy with the imperial lists I have at the moment, flying more Ints/Firesprays generally. I guess it would help to remember that rebels and imps have completely different approaches to battle. I am not sure I would like to see more cooperative effects with the imperials, it would not seem right

I am really happy with the imperial lists I have at the moment, flying more Ints/Firesprays generally. I guess it would help to remember that rebels and imps have completely different approaches to battle. I am not sure I would like to see more cooperative effects with the imperials, it would not seem right

but the fact still remains that the cooperative effects tend to create stronger lists. Even on the Imperial side alone, you can see Howlrunner, Squad Leader, Swarm Tactics leading the pack since Wave 1. Since Wave 1. Nearly 1 whole year of developments, and the competitive stuff on the Imperial side is still from Wave 1.

It's interesting to me that every time anyone is disappointed, people think they're "freaking out", or "throwing a fit' or whatever.

I am disappointed that the Defender is going to cost so much. And (before some Rebel player says it) not because "Imps are swarm players, derp derp," but because I would like to run more than 2 Defenders or Phantoms at once. I'm not asking for a swarm, just a decently equipped squadron of three.

I also find it interesting that whenever someone lists off the "New Stuff" for the Imperials, they never mention that almost all of the new upgrade cards also apply to Rebels as well.

In one thread, a Rebel player says, "See? Look at all this new stuff you imperials are getting. Stop whining, be happy!"

While in the next thread he says, "These are the lists I am thinking about using the upgrades from the new Imperial ships."

I would be pretty happy if the Imperials got a bunch of "Empire only" cards, both crew, and something to make up for R2 units. Not asking for some "auto-win" card, just more options that Rebels don't have.

Something besides cloaking (which, I am very excited about even though REBEL turrets can still hit them),

and bombs (which basicly inflict one damage that certain R2 units can either fix or flip down).