I still think that having the 3 banks and 3 turns would have further reinforced the unique nature of the Defender (I might have made the 2 turn white as well) and justified the points cost.

By the same token adding Boost so you don't have to put an extra 4 points in to get it would have done the same.

Overall I think the Defender will see play, but it's not going to change the nature of the game in the way the B-Wing did.

Good thing it does have 3 banks and turns then, eh?

"as green" are the critical words I missed.

But I still think that the lack of Boost is the biggest issue.

That and the "but you've got a good dial" points cost that gets slapped onto EVERY **** TIE (just look at the Rebel players response to the A-Wing and the eventual backdown which came out of costing JUST ONE Rebel ship the way nearly every Imperial ship is costed).

Guys. Let's all just accept that FFG did this to the defenders dial on purpose.

Statwise, the TIE defender and avenger were too close, so they released the defender with a crazy fast dial just to differentiate it from the avenger coming out in wave 5.

Avenger can have the same stats and use the interceptor dial. Now there is a reason for both to exist.

GG. We win.

That and the "but you've got a good dial" points cost that gets slapped onto EVERY **** TIE (just look at the Rebel players response to the A-Wing and the eventual backdown which came out of costing JUST ONE Rebel ship the way nearly every Imperial ship is costed).

This explains why the TIE Fighter is so much more expensive than the Z-95!

That and the "but you've got a good dial" points cost that gets slapped onto EVERY **** TIE (just look at the Rebel players response to the A-Wing and the eventual backdown which came out of costing JUST ONE Rebel ship the way nearly every Imperial ship is costed).

This explains why the TIE Fighter is so much more expensive than the Z-95!

No, it explains why they are the same cost yet the Z-95 has better #'s.

That and the "but you've got a good dial" points cost that gets slapped onto EVERY **** TIE (just look at the Rebel players response to the A-Wing and the eventual backdown which came out of costing JUST ONE Rebel ship the way nearly every Imperial ship is costed).

This explains why the TIE Fighter is so much more expensive than the Z-95!

And ld actually say that the Tie's still the better ship. Barrel Roll and evade on 3 dice leave it in a great spot against 2 attack ships. Even with TL.

Dissapointing maneuver dial, it is quite predictable, having turns in red... and just having straight green maneuvers... the white koigran is not enough to balance that short maneuverability.

I still preffer using a firespray, tougher and more unpredictable in its movements.

The Defender has 17 manouvres on its dial.

A stressed Defender still 13.

The B-Wing has 15 manouvres on its dial.

A stressed B-Wing is down to 9.

Now tell me which ship is more predictable.

The B-wing if it has Advanced Sensors, hands down.

Now tell me which ship is more predictable.

The B-wing if it has Advanced Sensors, hands down.

Thats absolutely right ^^ ... a B-Wing with AS is most predictable

I think you need to qualify when the attacker is a defender vs when the defender is a defender, otherwise it gets a bit confusing . I understand having the attacking defender fire cluster missiles at the defender, but the defender isn't defending against the attacker as it is the attacker, instead the defending ship is defending against the defender.

Oh - and to the turning - please note, that when not stressed, the defender can roll.

Please perform a 3 right turn and barrel roll right and back. Note that it's a tighter turn than a 1 turn, though it does put you nearly a ship base further... Still - keep that in mind - if there's room for the 3 right turn and roll, it doesn't need to stress itself to get a turn that's practically tighter than a 1 turn

Actually - here - Done and Done

The Americans will never win the war with piston engine fighters ....

Of course not. They'll give said fighter to the British, who'll fit it with a proper piston engine.

... You have a Spitfire in mind, I guess?

... the Bf109 will always triumpf ...

hrhrhrhrrrrrr ....

... not

I think you need to qualify when the attacker is a defender vs when the defender is a defender, otherwise it gets a bit confusing . I understand having the attacking defender fire cluster missiles at the defender, but the defender isn't defending against the attacker as it is the attacker, instead the defending ship is defending against the defender.

All jokes aside, this is a good point. It's been awhile, but wasn't the TIE-Defender called a "Clutch" by Alliance pilots, the way LNs were "Eyeballs" and INs were "Squints" ??

I think you need to qualify when the attacker is a defender vs when the defender is a defender, otherwise it gets a bit confusing . I understand having the attacking defender fire cluster missiles at the defender, but the defender isn't defending against the attacker as it is the attacker, instead the defending ship is defending against the defender.

All jokes aside, this is a good point. It's been awhile, but wasn't the TIE-Defender called a "Clutch" by Alliance pilots, the way LNs were "Eyeballs" and INs were "Squints" ??

A "clutch" was a type of Ugly, IIRC, while Defenders were "trips".

Of course, that doesn't help much either, since a list featuring Vessery with two Deltas is trip trips...

I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about the predictability of the Defender's maneuver dial in this thread so far, and I feel the need to address a few things.

At first, I was in agreement. The multitude of red turns makes it seem to an opponent that yes, it is very likely to just take that white kiogran whenever possible. However, after thinking about it the idea occurs to me that the TIE Defender is indeed predictable...

… if you keep dogging the same target.

In my experience, I have thrown opponents off the most when I use the 3 bank. It is very good for being somewhere significantly different than an opponent thought you would end up, while at the same time offering you very different target options in one round than you had the round previous. On a boost capable ship (since the Defender comes with Engine Upgrade) you can power straight up the line and land a single heavy hit against an opponent, then zip clear on through the fray and target someone completely different. Allow your cheaper or more turn-capable ships engage the remainder of the HP left to whoever you just railed. TIEs, Interceptors, or even a Bomber who brought up the rear with some heavy ordinance. Fly the Defender in an "I'll set 'em up, you knock 'em down" mentality.

Secondly, you can use your own predictability to your advantage in a sort of "hands down" strategy. If you know where you will end up, and you know your opponent has a good idea where you'll end up, then use that. Use Ion cannons or Ion Pulse Missiles to aid you. Remember, you have other ships on the field. Take this example.

First, fly your Defender towards a target and Ion them. That means that you know where he'll be. When you k-turn next round, that's at least one ship you know who won't be able to take advantage of your predictability. Since your opponent will likely know that your k-turn is a 4, he's likely going to line up a shot pretty well. However, with many of the Rebel heavy hitters having fairly predictable maneuver dials (B-wings, X-wings, Y-wings), YOU in turn should be able to extrapolate where he'll try to end up to get a great shot on your Defender. Bring the rest of your ships to bear on that spot or spots, wherever they may be, and you've just set them up to get railed twice over in a single round.

I think you need to qualify when the attacker is a defender vs when the defender is a defender, otherwise it gets a bit confusing . I understand having the attacking defender fire cluster missiles at the defender, but the defender isn't defending against the attacker as it is the attacker, instead the defending ship is defending against the defender.

All jokes aside, this is a good point. It's been awhile, but wasn't the TIE-Defender called a "Clutch" by Alliance pilots, the way LNs were "Eyeballs" and INs were "Squints" ??

You could always capitalize Defender, since it's a proper noun.

I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about the predictability of the Defender's maneuver dial in this thread so far, and I feel the need to address a few things.

At first, I was in agreement. The multitude of red turns makes it seem to an opponent that yes, it is very likely to just take that white kiogran whenever possible. However, after thinking about it the idea occurs to me that the TIE Defender is indeed predictable...

… if you keep dogging the same target.

In my experience, I have thrown opponents off the most when I use the 3 bank. It is very good for being somewhere significantly different than an opponent thought you would end up, while at the same time offering you very different target options in one round than you had the round previous. On a boost capable ship (since the Defender comes with Engine Upgrade) you can power straight up the line and land a single heavy hit against an opponent, then zip clear on through the fray and target someone completely different. Allow your cheaper or more turn-capable ships engage the remainder of the HP left to whoever you just railed. TIEs, Interceptors, or even a Bomber who brought up the rear with some heavy ordinance. Fly the Defender in an "I'll set 'em up, you knock 'em down" mentality.

This however, goes against the swarm mentality ingrained in a lot of players: aim all your ships at one target, shoot that, move on to the next.

I would describe a swarm mentality as the mindset that all ships should do the same thing at the same time, whereas all the ships have their different roles and a squad should utilize different ships to the best of their ability.

A Defender is a heavy hitter, use something else to clean up after him. That could be a bomber throwing a missile at it, a few TIEs, a shuttle in command & support or a sniping Kir Kanos from the edges, there's a whole lot of options, that's what makes it fun. And even if they take out the support, there's still that Defender to deal with.

The defender isn't really a ship that you make a squad out of it is one you make a squad around. It is the opposite of the shuttle and HWK of wave 3, it doesn't support, it needs to be supported. But when it is...

Couldn't agree more. For the doubters try out this list...

Howl w/ PTL and Stealth

Detla w/ HLC and Stealth

3x AP

Very ANGRY list.

Predictable or not... If your not in a Bwing or turret there's not a dang thing you can do about getting k turned to death. Three rookie defenders with stealth,,,, and go!

Predictable or not... If your not in a Bwing or turret there's not a dang thing you can do about getting k turned to death. Three rookie defenders with stealth,,,, and go!

TBH, I think I might prefer HU over stealth in this beast. Stealth is great for glass ships, not sure how good it would be on a Trip.

Now tell me which ship is more predictable.

The B-wing if it has Advanced Sensors, hands down.

Thats absolutely right ^^ ... a B-Wing with AS is most predictable

Oops. Right, got that backwards. It must have been late when I posted.

The B-wing with AS is less predictable.... right, there we go.

Buzzsaw sillyness list

Omicron Shuttle with Lord Vader (24pts)

Omicron Shuttle with FCS, Gunner, ST-321, Weapon Engineer, Engine Upgrade (38pts)

Colonel Vessary with Outmaneuver (38pts)

Throw Vader's shuttle out front to soak fire and get in a hit or two before it explodes, target locks all around from ST-321 and the Colonel flanks can focus or get into a better position with barrel roll and still gets to use his pilot ability.

Buzzsaw sillyness list

Omicron Shuttle with Lord Vader (24pts)

Omicron Shuttle with FCS, Gunner, ST-321, Weapon Engineer, Engine Upgrade (38pts)

Colonel Vessary with Outmaneuver (38pts)

Throw Vader's shuttle out front to soak fire and get in a hit or two before it explodes, target locks all around from ST-321 and the Colonel flanks can focus or get into a better position with barrel roll and still gets to use his pilot ability.

Yeah, I think ST-321 and Vessery are going to end up being very good friends.

Could throw another fast ship in there like the royal guard pilot but I have found with my playstyle I prefer to have the big stuff that can give as much if not more than they take. I have come to think of the doomshuttle as a harder hitting imperial version of Biggs.

The defender isn't really a ship that you make a squad out of it is one you make a squad around. It is the opposite of the shuttle and HWK of wave 3, it doesn't support, it needs to be supported. But when it is...

Couldn't agree more. For the doubters try out this list...

Howl w/ PTL and Stealth

Detla w/ HLC and Stealth

3x AP

Very ANGRY list.

The opponent would almost certainly be best off killing the Academies first. Howlrunner is only buffing 4 ships max. Kill an Academy or two in the first round before they get to even shoot, and she's only buffing 2-3 ships even in the first round. The TIE Defender is the tankiest ship there relative to its damage output (even with HLC), so save it for last.

The defender isn't really a ship that you make a squad out of it is one you make a squad around. It is the opposite of the shuttle and HWK of wave 3, it doesn't support, it needs to be supported. But when it is...

Couldn't agree more. For the doubters try out this list...

Howl w/ PTL and Stealth

Detla w/ HLC and Stealth

3x AP

Very ANGRY list.

So angry.

I might try something just a little bit different. I've never benefitted from PtL on Howlrunner. It's best when there are more actions available to a ship, but you don't want Engine Upgrade on her cuz she'll break the swarm.

Suggestion: Drop the PtL and Stealth Device. Give Howlrunner Wingman, and then Upgrade one Academy to Black Squadron with Wingman. This allows the entire squadron to K-turn to its heart's content. Your lack of focus could cause problems occasionally, but you will still be buffed by Howlrunner.