A defender is 36% more expensive in points than the B wing, now tell me if you can field 4 defenders in a 100 point squad.

3 defenders are 18 hull/shields with 3 dice to defend and its skill is 1. (this means 3 shots if no defender is killed after Bwings shoots)

4 Bwing are 32 hull/shileds with 1 die to defend and its skill is 2. (this means 4 shots before any defender shoots)

I foresee a defender is dead before shooting.

A Defender is not bound in position like a B-Wing - just fly a unexpected manouvre and shred your stress in the next turn, if you have to. Colonel Vesserl and the new EPT meaning you'll get better chances to hit even if they got stress.

But yet again: Fly it like a jet fighter.

If you don't like this ... stick to your Bf109's ... or Spitfires

Lets see what the E-Wings dial is like.

If the E-wing has the same dial as the A-wing, but the greens are only straight and the turns are red, will republic players be underwhelmed by it? Would the ability to make all the 1 and 2 movements green with the R2 droid for the E-wing satisfy you/make you feel better?

This is all hypothetical though, can't wait to see the E-wing spoiler.

Definitely getting each wave 4 ship.

Yeah ... the magic R2 droid will make the E-Wing a very curvy fighter, no matter what will come ... hmm.

**** astro droids!

R2 Astromech costs 1 point... hm...

In the end the Rebels get a ship that unifies the A-Wing and the B-Wing with no drawbacks which can't be handeled with a R2 unit for a single point ...

The complaint it'll be that it has 2 hull, no boost and "too expensive" I guess?

The Defender has 17 manouvres on its dial.

A stressed Defender still 13.

The B-Wing has 15 manouvres on its dial.

A stressed B-Wing is down to 9.

Now tell me which ship is more predictable.

The defender, honestly. It has more non-red maneuvers, but they're all in a fairly narrow cone and it can't change its facing by more than 45* without making a very long turn and likely overshooting. And the fact that the white k-turn is so often the clear best choice you have three options:

1) Straight green to clear stress at the (likely) cost of getting a shot. Distance is highly variable, but direction is completely predictable. A post-move barrel roll is the only real uncertainty. Aim to center your arc on a 2-3ish straight move and you'll probably have a shot.

2) K-turn to keep a target in arc. Possibly a good play, but completely predictable.

3) White bank that keeps stress, likely does a poor job of setting up a shot next turn and a poor job of disengaging. Unpredictable, but often the only reason to do it is if you're so afraid of being predictable that you'll take a weaker move.

And then there's the question of how often each ship gets stressed. B-wings only get stressed when they make a k-turn or, less often, a 1-turn. Most of the time its full dial will be available. The defender, on the other hand, gets stressed if it tries to do anything besides k-turn every turn or shoot once and then run away to set up another pass. So if it tries to do anything at all unpredictable it pays for it with stress and makes itself very predictable next turn.

Finally, there's the advanced sensors factor. B-wings that get to move at higher PS are a lot better at reactive moves, especially if you pay for an engine upgrade (and you certainly have points in this comparison). A B-wing with a PS advantage is unpredictable simply because so much of its final position isn't even decided until after you've already moved.

Personally, I'm interested to see how this ship will fly with an Engine Upgrade - alongside the white k-turn this would allow you to turn in whichever direction you want with no stress.

0 deg: Obvious - just don't turn.

45 deg - Bank, or green straight with banking boost.

90 deg - Bank with banking boost.

135 deg - K-turn followed by banking boost.

180 deg - K-turn.

its less expensive then the Defender ...

Lets see what role it gets.

I would say the Defenders' role is Seek and Destroy

The Defender has 17 manouvres on its dial.

A stressed Defender still 13.

The B-Wing has 15 manouvres on its dial.

A stressed B-Wing is down to 9.

Now tell me which ship is more predictable.

The defender, honestly. It has more non-red maneuvers, but they're all in a fairly narrow cone and it can't change its facing by more than 45* without making a very long turn and likely overshooting. And the fact that the white k-turn is so often the clear best choice you have three options:

1) Straight green to clear stress at the (likely) cost of getting a shot. Distance is highly variable, but direction is completely predictable. A post-move barrel roll is the only real uncertainty. Aim to center your arc on a 2-3ish straight move and you'll probably have a shot.

2) K-turn to keep a target in arc. Possibly a good play, but completely predictable.

3) White bank that keeps stress, likely does a poor job of setting up a shot next turn and a poor job of disengaging. Unpredictable, but often the only reason to do it is if you're so afraid of being predictable that you'll take a weaker move.

And then there's the question of how often each ship gets stressed. B-wings only get stressed when they make a k-turn or, less often, a 1-turn. Most of the time its full dial will be available. The defender, on the other hand, gets stressed if it tries to do anything besides k-turn every turn or shoot once and then run away to set up another pass. So if it tries to do anything at all unpredictable it pays for it with stress and makes itself very predictable next turn.

Finally, there's the advanced sensors factor. B-wings that get to move at higher PS are a lot better at reactive moves, especially if you pay for an engine upgrade (and you certainly have points in this comparison). A B-wing with a PS advantage is unpredictable simply because so much of its final position isn't even decided until after you've already moved.

You still don't get it? ^^

The Defender was designed to overshoot and turn around.

With Cpt. Yorr, defenders become the ultimate dogfighter in the galaxy, true.

Adrenaline rush is not as useful, and honestly, it feels like a waste of the EPT on this killing machine.

Wingman doesn't help the defender as much, since the stress is cleared at the combat phase, and the defender will lose its action neverthless.

However, Yorr assisted by wingmen (1, or better, 2 BSP + Wingman) , also becomes the ultimate stress clearing machine.

You still don't get it? ^^

The Defender was designed to overshoot and turn around.

I understand perfectly well what its role is. The point is that "overshoot and turn around" is very predictable. You're either k-turning to keep shooting, or making a long straight move to disengage. The defender is going to fight on a straight line, with only occasional turn maneuvers off that line.

You still don't get it? ^^

The Defender was designed to overshoot and turn around.

I understand perfectly well what its role is. The point is that "overshoot and turn around" is very predictable. You're either k-turning to keep shooting, or making a long straight move to disengage. The defender is going to fight on a straight line, with only occasional turn maneuvers off that line.

And you don't like it? Well, i have faith into the Defender. And if you look at Rexlers artwork, you'll see what the Defender is meant for. Yes - for 100 point games the Defender might be a bit too expensive ... but it seems you forgot about the upcomming epic game mode?! I forsee the Defender will be the biggest threat for the rebels big ships.

You still don't get it? ^^

The Defender was designed to overshoot and turn around.

I understand perfectly well what its role is. The point is that "overshoot and turn around" is very predictable. You're either k-turning to keep shooting, or making a long straight move to disengage. The defender is going to fight on a straight line, with only occasional turn maneuvers off that line.

Just because something is predictable doesn't mean it is easily defended. It's throwing 3 attack dice, and is pretty stout (with 3 agi, it should conceivably live longer than a Bwing). If it's not the main focus of your opponent, you're going to wreak havoc on them. And if they do turn to face off with the defender, you're going to white kturn and take an action while they kturn and pick up stress. Meanwhile, you're flying around with Backstabber, laughing as you gun them down.

This ship is likely not going to see 2-3 in a list. 1 ship should be enough to test your opponent's tactical forte. And force them to decide how to handle targets. Anytime you're forcing your opponent to choose, you should have an advantage.

In the PC game the Defender is less manoeuvrable than the Avenger but that's not the point. The Defender is designed to be the TIE B-wing. A heavy tank of a fighter that hits hard and can take a beating, but won't be able to outmanoeuvre dedicated fighters. That's why you run it with dogfight support so that it can do its job of taking out small to medium sized targets like transports, YTs, corvettes and so on.

In the PC game the defender flew rings around everything that was not an avenger or interceptor. In the PC game the B-wing was a flying dog turd. Calling the Tie-Defender the Tie-B-wing is kind of mean.

As has been pointed out before. (Ignoring the whole space vs. atmosphere argument) the Defender is the WWII ME-262. It's awful fast, but that speed makes slow turns virtually impossible to make.

The tactics of the ME-262 were to scream through a formation of bombers before they or the escorts could react, turn out and repeat.

In the end, that was their undoing as the Mustang pilots learned how to take them often 2-1 as the Mustang was highly maneuverable and almost as quick.

In this case, you'll need to accompany your defender with agile escorts, Int's maybe, even ties or use the ME-262 tactic and hope the enemy brings no Mustangs :-)

I think this is going to be the B-Wing hunter the Empire is missing. Especially with an Ion Cannon.

...

In this case, you'll need to accompany your defender with agile escorts, Int's maybe, even ties or use the ME-262 tactic and hope the enemy brings no Mustangs :-)

...

who brings horses to a space fight?

In this case, you'll need to accompany your defender with agile escorts, Int's maybe, even ties or use the ME-262 tactic and hope the enemy brings no Mustangs :-)

The Americans will never win the war with piston engine fighters ....

... oh crap ...

Lets build secret ufo-fighters then and hide on mars

And then there's the question of how often each ship gets stressed. B-wings only get stressed when they make a k-turn or, less often, a 1-turn. Most of the time its full dial will be available. The defender, on the other hand, gets stressed if it tries to do anything besides k-turn every turn or shoot once and then run away to set up another pass. So if it tries to do anything at all unpredictable it pays for it with stress and makes itself very predictable next turn.

Finally, there's the advanced sensors factor. B-wings that get to move at higher PS are a lot better at reactive moves, especially if you pay for an engine upgrade (and you certainly have points in this comparison). A B-wing with a PS advantage is unpredictable simply because so much of its final position isn't even decided until after you've already moved.

Incorrect. The B-wing stresses itself on a 1 turn, a 2 k-turn, a 3 bank, or a 4 straight. it's whites are only a 3 straight and 2 turns and banks, it's greens are 1 straight and bank and 2 straight, which is frankly a lot more predictable than the defender's range of greens. The defender only stresses itself on a 1 or 2 speed turn, it's green are every straight except a 1, and it has all three banks and a 3 turn as it's whites plus the whit k-turn.

I would say that both of these dials are fairly predictable, if clearing stress the b-wing occupies a fairly small bubble (though admittedly advanced sensors and engine upgrade widen that, but that jacks up the overall price enough that you aren't really that much cheaper than a defender anymore) and the Defender occupies, well a line, a rather long one, if simply avoiding stress the defender will still be more likely to not end up in the arc of someone that isn't already on their six, though the B-wing is more likely to shake those that are. They are very different ships manuverwise and if you try to play them at all similar one will obliterate the other, a B vs D match will go to whoever forces the other to play their game more.

Statwise the defender is the overall winner, 3 agility, unmodified, will block, on average, slightly more than 1 damage per attack, and the defender will take a minimum of two non secondary or range three attacks to destroy, so generally 9 damage, the b-wings will take three attacks under those same conditions but will only block 1 damage every three attacks, so 9 damage results again, but a defender is more likely to completely evade an attack, especially if they hold their focus for defense, and since the b-wing has less agility a modified attack roll is less important.

The defender isn't really a ship that you make a squad out of it is one you make a squad around. It is the opposite of the shuttle and HWK of wave 3, it doesn't support, it needs to be supported. But when it is...

Vonpenguin -

"The defender isn't really a ship that you make a squad out of it is one you make a squad around. It is the opposite of the shuttle and HWK of wave 3, it doesn't support, it needs to be supported. But when it is..."

What this person said.

Just because something is predictable doesn't mean it is easily defended.

Well no, but I never said that it is. The TIE defender is possibly a bit too expensive, but it's very good at what it does. A 3/3/3/3 stat line is as much as you could reasonably ask for, and every stress-free k-turn you make adds even more of an advantage. If the defender gets to choose how the fight goes it's going to be difficult for any other ship to keep up.

But none of this changes the fact that it's a very predictable ship. You know what it wants to do, the only question is whether you're capable of stopping it.

I still think that having the 3 banks and 3 turns as green would have further reinforced the unique nature of the Defender (I might have made the 2 turn white as well) and justified the points cost.

By the same token adding Boost so you don't have to put an extra 4 points in to get it would have done the same.

Overall I think the Defender will see play, but it's not going to change the nature of the game in the way the B-Wing did.

I still think that having the 3 banks and 3 turns would have further reinforced the unique nature of the Defender (I might have made the 2 turn white as well) and justified the points cost.

By the same token adding Boost so you don't have to put an extra 4 points in to get it would have done the same.

Overall I think the Defender will see play, but it's not going to change the nature of the game in the way the B-Wing did.

Good thing it does have 3 banks and turns then, eh?