I honestly don't see what all the angst is about. To paraphrase an obscure movie:

"I used to dogfight all the time in my TIE Bomber back home, and its dial isn't much different than the TIE Defender."

TIE Bombers are very accomplished as dogfighters, as long as you don't try to run them the same way you run other TIEs. Pass through at top speed, then K-Turn and come back through. The Defender will be much better at this than any other ship in the game, including B-Wings with Advanced Sensors.

People are seriously underestimating how big of a deal a white K-Turn is. Allowing you to get an action when you K-Turn is by far the least of the things a white K-Turn provides. The ability to gamble and choose the K-Turn on the chance that it will work is something you just never do with Red Ks, because the penalty is so high. The White K-Turn reduces the penalty to almost nothing. If your opponent decides to gun it you end up right behind him with an action ready to blast him to dust. If he slowrolls, you bump and neither of you shoots but you can still K-Turn next turn whereas a ship with a red K-turn would be forced to allow the opponent to K-Turn behind him. Finally, the turn after you K-Turn, you have your entire dial available, with actions, and no concern about clearing stress.

Honestly, I don't know how ANYONE can look at a ship with this much defense, this many red dice, the ability to equip a cannon and missiles, and NOT think it is worth 30 points. You can easily TL one turn, K-Turn the next and focus, then let loose with either a 4 dice TL+Focus attack or fire ordnance/cannon with the same. A white K-Turn is a VERY big deal, it simply does not compare to ships whose K-Turns are Red.

And that you could bump/mess up that K-turn but not take a stress for it. Wont be punished as much.

Honestly, I don't know how ANYONE can look at a ship with this much defense, this many red dice, the ability to equip a cannon and missiles, and NOT think it is worth 30 points.

I fully plan on trying a 3x Delta w/Outmaneuver or Predator list . With the amount of defense and speed it has, you could run all 3 by themselves and just zoom and boom all over the map. If someone tries to focus on one of them its so fast it can get away and the other two can come in screaming.

Durr... Just realized that Delta can't have EPT's.

So could give them each a Hull Upgrade, Stealth Device, or perhaps a Ion Pulse Missile.

Except that the Delta can't take Elite Talents. Hopefully the Onyx can.

because the equipping of said missiles and/or HLC with any other upgrade puts the cost at ~40pts for a PS 1 ship. Any more points and you can get an interceptor and a bomber with ordnance or 2 named ties and a generic or Krassis with an HLC. What does it really offer that these other options don't?

Except that the Delta can't take Elite Talents.

Yeah I just realized that. Yet another beautiful theory shot down by ugly, ugly fact.

Hopefully the Onyx can.

Even if they can, and they come in at 32 points. Not much room in there for EPT's in 100 points. Just the 3 ships put you at 96 points, so two 1 point EPT and one 2 point EPT.

Except that the Delta can't take Elite Talents.

Yeah I just realized that. Yet another beautiful theory shot down by ugly, ugly fact.

Hopefully the Onyx can.

Even if they can, and they come in at 32 points. Not much room in there for EPT's in 100 points. Just the 3 ships put you at 96 points, so two 1 point EPT and one 2 point EPT.

OR we could drop the swarm mentality and have ships of other types along with the Onyx that hopefully has an EPT.

OR we could drop the swarm mentality...

I don't consider a list consisting of 3 of the same ship to be a swarm. But yeah the Defender can find itself in a lot of lists with a mix of ships.

Except that the Delta can't take Elite Talents.

Yeah I just realized that. Yet another beautiful theory shot down by ugly, ugly fact.

Hopefully the Onyx can.

Even if they can, and they come in at 32 points. Not much room in there for EPT's in 100 points. Just the 3 ships put you at 96 points, so two 1 point EPT and one 2 point EPT.

OR we could drop the swarm mentality and have ships of other types along with the Onyx that hopefully has an EPT.

how is 3 ships a swarm mentality?

because the equipping of said missiles and/or HLC with any other upgrade puts the cost at ~40pts for a PS 1 ship. Any more points and you can get an interceptor and a bomber with ordnance or 2 named ties and a generic or Krassis with an HLC. What does it really offer that these other options don't?

Compared to all of those listed, a white K-Turn. A high speed dial. 3 Agility.

In addition:

Vs. Krassis, a small base so you can slow roll and a barrel roll in order to stay at range while facing your target (something Krassis struggles with), for -6 points (which would pretty much pay for that HLC).

Compared to 2 named TIEs, a third attack die that makes it much more effective shooting at higher agility ships or firing at range 3, 3 shields vs. 3 Hull, target lock.

I just remember all the wailing and gnashing of teeth before the Lambda came out because its stat line was just sooo OP for a "mere" 21 points. Turns out the dial really did make that much of a difference, and the Lambda isn't the OP beast everyone thought it would be. The same will be true for the Defender as well, in my opinion, except that rather than make the ship cost less than its stats suggest the dial will make the ship cost more. I really believe that when people actually use the ship, they will find that the dial is much better than it looks on paper and will justify the 30 point price.

In a meta that currently (still) favors larger numbers over higher quality, the Defender may not see a ton of playtime. But that is a consequence of the action economy more than anything, and as abilities continue to be added that help vs. quantity builds I expect that to diminish. Predator especially is helpful here, and Outmaneuver may or may not be great (depending on the build, you need a main threat to hold your opponent's attention and allow your OM ship to flank).

Krassis gets you 4 more PS and free rerolls (you'd have to upgrade to an EPT pilot and spend about the same to get there), 2named+AP gets you 6-10 dice and 9 hull with 3 agility with evade and pilot abilities, and the ceptor nets you a better dial and you get another ship to pair with. I don't see a role that it covers better or as good as what these existing options provide.

The meta does still favor quantity. It also feels like wave 4 is gearing up for epic/cinematic. As other's have discussed, the defender might be the "answer" to rebel BIG ships and many of the stress induction might be more pointed at the defender and caught the interceptor in the firefight. That leads me to hope the defender's dial is good enough to make it worth 30pts for a naked PS 1 but so far, for competitive and even for "high level casual" play it's not looking better than other options.

Except that the Delta can't take Elite Talents.

Yeah I just realized that. Yet another beautiful theory shot down by ugly, ugly fact.

Hopefully the Onyx can.

Even if they can, and they come in at 32 points. Not much room in there for EPT's in 100 points. Just the 3 ships put you at 96 points, so two 1 point EPT and one 2 point EPT.

OR we could drop the swarm mentality and have ships of other types along with the Onyx that hopefully has an EPT.

how is 3 ships a swarm mentality?

OR we could drop the swarm mentality...

I don't consider a list consisting of 3 of the same ship to be a swarm. But yeah the Defender can find itself in a lot of lists with a mix of ships.

First of all I apologize about the tone of my original post, didn't realize it sounded so hostile.

It's not always the number of ships that represents a swarm mentality. As an empire player, I have had a lot of luck with mixed ship lists, but from a large number of other empire players I receive questions about "why not just six fighters or four interceptors or three bounty hunters."

Not accusing you necessarily, but have heard a lot of players who seem to think a ship is only good in groups of the same ship.

Try one defender and two interceptors or a Firespray or an int and some TIEs.

Shake things up, it's fun!

Not accusing you necessarily, but have heard a lot of players who seem to think a ship is only good in groups of the same ship.

Both ways work. To me a swarm is 6+ of the same ship with few if any upgrades.

I can see the Defender working well as the elite ship in a mixed ship list, but it also may be effective in a 3 Defender list. At 30 points it will be easier to fit it in a mixed list I think, so it would be interesting to try and put it in a 3 ship list.

I tend to like mixed lists too (see Turr's Hunting Party, Baron's Focus, and Scarlet Cowgirl threads)... But ya... swarm is generally at least 6 for the imperials (usually only ties) and 5 for the rebels but the rebels mix it up.

It's not always the number of ships that represents a swarm mentality.

It is also present in the people who want, need, all their ships at the same PS.

It's not always the number of ships that represents a swarm mentality.

It is also present in the people who want, need, all their ships at the same PS.

Mixed PS Just means that you have to plan maneuvers more carefully. And your opponent has to plan more carefully also, which often gives you an advantage.

Well, military-wise 4-6 ships (or planes) are a swarm ... or Schwarm ... this is true at least for the Luftwaffe.

2-3 ships are a pack or Rotte ... americans call this a wing I guess ^^

Krassis gets you 4 more PS and free rerolls (you'd have to upgrade to an EPT pilot and spend about the same to get there), 2named+AP gets you 6-10 dice and 9 hull with 3 agility with evade and pilot abilities, and the ceptor nets you a better dial and you get another ship to pair with. I don't see a role that it covers better or as good as what these existing options provide.

Of course Krassis offers things the Defender doesn't, so do the TIEs. But then again the Defender offers things they don't so if they didn't, the Defender would be undercosted. You asked what the Defender offers that Krassis/named TIEs do not, so I gave you a quick list off the top of my head.

I will reiterate that comparing the Defender to two named TIEs is a fairly close comparison (though "named TIEs are 15 or 16 points so you might need a couple points of upgrades on the Defender to make the comparison), and the two are definitely competitive in their abilities. The Defender is tougher, and has a more concentrated attack. The TIEs have an extra action, and roll one more attack die. This looks like a pretty good comparison to me already, but if you add the fact that the Defender has the paradigm shifting white K-Turn and I think you are able to make the case that the Defender is a good value. It isn't Howlrunner, but it isn't Storm Squadron either.

Comparing to Krassis you first have to take into account that Krassis is 36 points. You can't just gloss past that, 6 points is nearly an HLC. If you compare the Defender with HLC to Krassis without, the Defender is clearly more dangerous. Of course running Krassis bare is not optimal, but if you plan on putting an HLC on Krassis then you need to compare to a named Defender like Rexler in order to keep the totals even. Are the two comparable? Yes. Krassis gets rerolls, Rexler can crit the ever lovin out of someone even with an HLC. Krassis can fire out the back (losing his HLC), but Rexler can do a white K-Turn so he doesn't need to. Krassis can cover a lot of ground quickly because of his large ship base, Rexler can linger if he wants because he is a small ship with barrel roll. Seems like a pretty even trade to me.

Again, I think people may be missing the most potent combo with Rexlar. He can use his ability with the Ion Cannon. Ionized and a crit, that will be nasty once the shields are down.

And I do want to test out the Delta w/ Heavy Laser Cannon x2 + Jonus squad. It sounds fun.

It had not escaped my notice that I can put two HLC on the table with Jonus (and Squad Leader for that matter) thanks to the Delta.

I've never liked having to use a Shuttle as a gun boat, they get too expensive with the engine upgrade you need to make them mobile enough to do anything past the first pass.

The more I think about the cost the more I think that what is missing is Boost.

If the Boost action had been in the bar and you didn't have to pay 4 more points on top of an already costly ship I think I'd be defending the points cost rather than joining the "overcosted, though not by TOO much" chorus.

The one thing I really appreciate with the Defender is that it is the first ship in a long time that I look at and say: I don't really think PtL is necessary. Even the Phantom I look at and say: awesome, but PtL would be awesomer.

Honestly, boost with the white K-turn is insane. You can change that 4 k-turn into a 2 k-turn. I'm willing to bet that is why it didn't get the boost action.

Honestly, boost with the white K-turn is insane. You can change that 4 k-turn into a 2 k-turn. I'm willing to bet that is why it didn't get the boost action.

That's part of the reason it SHOULD have Boost.

We are paying a BIG points premium for that dial, and should be getting a BIG return out of it.

Also, this currently makes the Defender technically slower than the Interceptor... which it shouldn't be (at least not substantially).

A white K-turn is pretty significant. Much more significant than the Interceptor's dial. K-turn then Barrel Roll is crazy enough, I'm guessing playtesting showed that boost was a bit much. You pay 3 points to get a lesser version of that on the B-wing or Phantom. But it is lesser, due to not being able to do it back to back. One on one, with an Ion Cannon, the Defender is THE king of jousting.

Here's the beginning of my dual Defender list (if the PS 3 has an EPT, this will change):

Rexler Brath + Predator + HLC

Colonel Vessery + VI + IC

I've been thinking about Defenders today and tried one out in an Excel spreadsheet because I'm a cool dude like that. One thing that I quickly figured out is that PIlot Skill on these things doesn't matter. In fact, I think I prefer a PS 1 Defender to a higher PS model simply because it lets you always know where you're going to end up without having to worry about enemy ships blocking up your K-Turn. Plus, once you're behind the enemy, who cares who shoots first!

I went into this thing with a pretty low opinion of the Defender, but I'm looking forward to trying it out on the table now.