I'd put Howlrunner, Fel, Vader, Turr, Backstabber (at point cost), and the Vanilla Royal guard before him before we even start thinking about him. Jax might make a splash. Whisper will likely land in that top 5 at the same time. An ability based on 3 ifs is pretty conditional (If you hit/they don't evade, if you have a focus/don't spend your focus, if they have no shields); at that cost I think we'd want a more consistent ability.

I can understand you feeling disappointed here, but you're absolutely digging for justification at this point. "If they don't evade" applies to any attack-based ability, including several you mention there. "If you have a focus" parallels Turr nicely with "If you have room to barrel roll" and Whisper might as well get "If you don't get ionized and stuck unable to attack at all".

You can take ANY ability and put as many "Ifs" on it as you want. Counting them is an exercise in inventive justification.

And Vader? Really? He's a moderately competitive pilot, but top 5??

I do like Vader and if his ship ever gets support he'll be an absolute monster.

I do admit that you can "if" anything but the severity of the ifs are what matters. Turr's "if" isn't decided by dice or HP and doesn't cost you an action. Whisper's ability is closer in that you have to hit to do it, but again, doesn't require a specific HP threshold or any action... both are actually free actions... aren't free actions powerful (thus Vader, Fel, and Howlrunner as free TL's being on the top 5 list)?

"If you have a focus" is right there with Kir Kanos' ability except evade action is usually less flexible but doesn't require hitting and his ability is considered fairly weak. Sabatuer does the same thing and is considered very weak (have to have damage cards on there, takes an action and you took an action to focus). It's kinda line with VADER CREW, except again, it requires a hit, hp threshold, and an action.

It's a very nice ability, especially since he didn't pay anything for it, but I don't see it playing out or being more useful to build around than any of the other pilots I listed and certainly not on the mediocre defender at near 40pts.

I would say the 2 Hull ships like the A-Wing and E-Wing are the most resistant to Rexlar's ability. The only time his ability comes into play is if he deals a single damage to the target ship AND he didn't have to spend the focus to get the attack through. If he deals 2 hull worth of damage, he just destroyed the ships. If he lands 1 or 2 shield damage, he doesn't get to use his ability.

For those with the complaint about low-PS generics, think of it this way: perhaps they may be good pilots, but their better ships are harder to pilot. A lesser-skilled pilot flying a simpler ship would match up with a more skilled pilot flying a more difficult ship

I'm thinking more of loyalty before ability. The Empire giving the best toys to the most loyal units, no matter how good they are, hence the PS1.

Onyx squadron however, we know they are PS3 from the preview, so looks like it has been decided (even though I believe they should be PS4 like the 181st, having the skills and experience to take full advantage of the advanced abilities of the fighter).

I would say the 2 Hull ships like the A-Wing and E-Wing are the most resistant to Rexlar's ability.

The fact that they'er easier to blow up then a X, Y, or even Interceptor doesn't really make them more resistant.

Rexlar's ability means he can one shot a A or Z without rolling a crit, with only 3 dice. Any other ship needs to roll a crit to pull that off. So I don't see how they're more resistant to his ability. In order for him to land 2 hull damage against those ships, they had to lose 1 or more shields prior to his attack.

Ten Numb with Autoblaster is also still a good counter to Rexlar and the Defender.

(Protip: Don't suggest an Autoblaster as a counter to anything. Really, just... don't...)

Actually, Brath with an Autoblaster and Predator sounds pretty nasty. You can't dodge his hits and you know he's going to flip them around the moment you see them pop up.

Autoblasters are pretty nasty to face when you're flying Imperials in general. One lucky dice roll and your fighter or interceptor goes down in one shot with no way to stop it.

Sabatuer does the same thing and is considered very weak (have to have damage cards on there, takes an action and you took an action to focus).

Uhm, now you're starting to sound nuts. Seriously - I believe that Vorpal Sword enumerated the reasons that this is NOTHING LIKE Saboteur above, if you're trying to compare the two you're into total tinfoil hat territory.

And really - you're going to count "need a focus" as a serious limitation? <shrug> Okay. Whatever. You seem to be so invested in the idea that the Imperials are getting shafted that your going way, WAY out of your way to find, or invent, reasons to justify that.

The Defender has its drawbacks - I honestly think the dial is possibly one of the worst in the game, rivaling the shuttle and HWK. It's expensive. But Rexler's ability is not one of them.

Ten Numb with Autoblaster is also still a good counter to Rexlar and the Defender.

(Protip: Don't suggest an Autoblaster as a counter to anything. Really, just... don't...)

Actually, Brath with an Autoblaster and Predator sounds pretty nasty. You can't dodge his hits and you know he's going to flip them around the moment you see them pop up.

Autoblasters are pretty nasty to face when you're flying Imperials in general. One lucky dice roll and your fighter or interceptor goes down in one shot with no way to stop it.

The Defender isn't going to be maneuverable enough to leverage an Autoblaster reliably. It's a very expensive waste of points.

Really - many electrons have gone to their deaths explaining why the Autoblaster is a remarkably bad card. Honor their memory, and trust the math.

Sabatuer does the same thing and is considered very weak (have to have damage cards on there, takes an action and you took an action to focus).

Uhm, now you're starting to sound nuts. Seriously - I believe that Vorpal Sword enumerated the reasons that this is NOTHING LIKE Saboteur above, if you're trying to compare the two you're into total tinfoil hat territory.

And really - you're going to count "need a focus" as a serious limitation? <shrug> Okay. Whatever. You seem to be so invested in the idea that the Imperials are getting shafted that your going way, WAY out of your way to find, or invent, reasons to justify that.

The Defender has its drawbacks - I honestly think the dial is possibly one of the worst in the game, rivaling the shuttle and HWK. It's expensive. But Rexler's ability is not one of them.

I am surprised about the dial since the Wave 4 announcement made such a big deal out of it, so it'll be a new way of playing Imperial craft with the Defender (doesn't mean I wasn't disappointed with the dial, I agree with you that it could be the worst in the game).

Ten Numb with Autoblaster is also still a good counter to Rexlar and the Defender.

(Protip: Don't suggest an Autoblaster as a counter to anything. Really, just... don't...)

Autoblaster might actually be a valid counter to Whisper with Advanced Cloaking Device, who is perpetually at 4 defense dice.

That's probably about the only example though. I'll have to run some numbers. It's not high on my priority though.

I'm thinking that the Defender might need Daredevil just to offset the sucky dial.. Doesn't add any green, but it helps with the Red's..

Engine upgrade and Daredevil would definitely help this mediocre dial..

Ten Numb with Autoblaster is also still a good counter to Rexlar and the Defender.

(Protip: Don't suggest an Autoblaster as a counter to anything. Really, just... don't...)

(Protip: Don't give out protips, really don't. Makes you look like a elitist know it all.) Try saying "I wouldn't recommend using that." and state reasons why. Comes off much more polite and doesn't make the person you are trying to.."Pro Educate" feel put down/annoyed.

Ten Numb with Autoblaster is also still a good counter to Rexlar and the Defender.

(Protip: Don't suggest an Autoblaster as a counter to anything. Really, just... don't...)

Actually, Brath with an Autoblaster and Predator sounds pretty nasty. You can't dodge his hits and you know he's going to flip them around the moment you see them pop up.

Autoblasters are pretty nasty to face when you're flying Imperials in general. One lucky dice roll and your fighter or interceptor goes down in one shot with no way to stop it.

The Defender isn't going to be maneuverable enough to leverage an Autoblaster reliably. It's a very expensive waste of points.

Really - many electrons have gone to their deaths explaining why the Autoblaster is a remarkably bad card. Honor their memory, and trust the math.

Regardless of math behind it, the weapon CAN work given the right situation. With a person playing skillful enough, the Autoblaster is a nice weapon that can be used effectively. Don't dog it just cause X amount of people deem it bad. Say it is bad based on your experience and leave others to decide whether they trust your input or not.

It occurs to me that it might be worth considering the spread of what Rexler means to different ships.

TIE Fighter/Interceptor: Terror. Absolute terror. I hated flying TIEs against HSF because Marksmanship+Gunner meant a very good chance you were going to take a crit. Everything he drops has a good chance to be a crit. Very scary.

Bomber: Even worse. The Bomber lives by its hull buffer, which means Rexler will have a good chance to reliably land multiple crits with every shot.

YT-1300/Y-wing/Lambda: Not as bad as the Bomber, but close. They've got the shields to buffer a bit, but once it's through those these are all low-agility ships with a lot of hull padding. They're going to eat a LOT of crits.

Firespray/HWK: Not as bad as the 1-agility crew, but still ships with more hull than shields that are going to be eating a lot of face up cards that can really hose them.

A-wing/E-wing: With near-guaranteed crits getting through, the potential for a Direct Hit is scary. Handle him better than most, I think, because they've got shields to buffer some and high agility to mean they don't take as many hits in the first place.

Headhunter: Worst of all possible worlds for this guy. Bad agility for lots of hits, and change for a 1-shot once the shields are gone.

X-wing: Not so bad. A bit of shields to pad, and not vulnerable to a single direct hit. But I think that the X-wing has more potential to get a hosing crit than most - named pilots mean most pilot crits suck, etc.

TIE Advanced: Handles it better than most. Agility, shield buffer, and enough hull to avoid the 1-shot kill. Maarek is completely immune to his ability, however (since he'll now REALLY never get played).

TIE Phantom: Will probably rely more on not getting shot, so hard to tell... but if he catches it uncloaked, it's basically a Headhunter. See above.

TIE Defender: Ironically, his own ship takes it better than anything else. High agility, large shield buffer, and (I think) unaffected by most crits (Oh, my turns are red now! Whatever will I do??)

Is he 1-shot kills on everything there? Of course not... but shields go away. And once he does...

Autoblaster might actually be a valid counter to Whisper with Advanced Cloaking Device, who is perpetually at 4 defense dice.

That's probably about the only example though. I'll have to run some numbers. It's not high on my priority though.

I kinda doubt an Autoblaster will ever have a shot at a Phantom outside of a very lucky situation. The extreme maneuvering from the 2-roll and 2-boost should keep it well outside the arc.

Outmanuever and Ion will be fun. If the defender had one speed it could walk ships off the board... Good thing it doesn't combo with Ion turrets...

It does, but just barely and strangely.

As long as you are firing the turret at a target inside your primary firing arc, it _absolutely_ works with Outmaneuver.

This card text should also work fairly well with- say- Proton Torpedoes. The only limiting factor on Outmaneuver is that you have to be firing at a target inside your primary arc. That opens up a lot of possibilities..

(Protip: Don't give out protips, really don't. Makes you look like a elitist know it all.) Try saying "I wouldn't recommend using that." and state reasons why. Comes off much more polite and doesn't make the person you are trying to.."Pro Educate" feel put down/annoyed.

Protip: Feeling insulted by a post with no less than 4 distinct smileys probably means you're being a little overly sensitive. I'm not normally one to take the "Ha ha I was just joking when I insulted you and you took it wrong" but really - FOUR smileys. Like 25% of the post is emoticons. I'm not sure what else I could do to make such a statement very lighthearted. It's also worth considering that if you knew me a bit better around here, you'd know that I reserve my elitism for rules discussions

The reasons why Autoblaster stink have been thoroughly discussed. I think Vorpal Sword may be planning on taking some sort of additional schooling just to use his analysis of it in a thesis. But the short version is that it's a very short range weapon intended to take down very maneuverable targets so it's unlikely to have many shots, and everything that can carry it can already throw 4 dice at that range so the actual benefit to your hit chance is almost noexistent. And all that for only 5 points!

There are certainly some minimal situations where you'll say "I'm glad I've got an Autoblaster here!" But they are truly minimal and generally uncontrollable enough that it's rarely worth taking in your build at all, much less for the cost. That makes them inappropriate to use as a counter to anything at all.

Never-the-less, I'm excited and m looking forward to play and get blown-up in the Tie Defender.

I stared reading this forum at around 11:00 when it was only three pages long. I am work so I have had to come back to it when I got the chance. Each time I came back the pages I hadn't read increased. I try to read every post in a forum before I pot my own, but I just couldn't today. So this is more my thoughts rather than a continuation of the conversation (In my defense so have most of the other posts)

Cost

Yeah it costs a lot and putting upgrades on it is just going to increase its cost. But the Cheapest version is 30 points and the PS 8 version is only 7 points more that is only an increase of 23% Compare that to a TIE Fighter 12 vs 18 points, it is an increase of 50%.

I expect we will see plenty of the named pilots. Though I think the low skill TIE Defender has a real place. Especially if there is one with a EPT upgrade.

Defense

Wow this ship is going to be hard to kill. 3 agility and 6 hits. The only ship with more than 5 hits that has more than 1 agility is the Fire Spray. So yes the Defender is a lot of points, but they are not going to be glass cannons like Interceptors. They may die quickly in games, but because of all the hate they will attract not because it will be easy.

Dial

I think this is what I am the most excited about. I am not going to say that we know how this will play. Sure its K-turn is white by all its hard turns are red.

I imagine it will feel like a WWII Messershmitt. It is so fast, it will dive through a battle, and maybe dive out again, before turning around and coming back. But it will not be able to to tight dog fighting.

I am sooooo glad that they didn't just give it a all around awesome dial and say, "sure its an expensive ship, it is good at everything"

Upgrades

I saved this for last on purpose. I think there has been more discussion about Predator and Outmaneuver that everything else on this forum. People have pointed out that they like Outmaneuver better. When its effect triggers it is slightly more useful than the main effect of Predator. Outmaneuver basically turns anyone into Backstabber(the exact effect is different, but they both are an offensive bump in the same circumstances), which is pretty awesome. But as anyone who has played Backstabber can tell you you don't get the effect every turn you shoot. Predator's main effect you do get every turn. And it is the Ultimate Anti-Swarm upgrade. Even more useful IMO than Assault missiles. It is going to be the bane of all those cheapest level ships. If nothing else Predator will encourage more of the middle PS ships.

Don't get me wrong, both upgrades are awesome. I really want to put Outmaneuver on Backstabber. It might be too expensive of an upgrade to put on Backstabber, but I would just love to come in behind someone into range 1 and get 4 attack dice and deny them one of their agility.

I am more likely to give Vader Outmaneuver and send him on a flanking run.

I stared reading this forum at around 11:00 when it was only three pages long. I am work so I have had to come back to it when I got the chance. Each time I came back the pages I hadn't read increased. I try to read every post in a forum before I pot my own, but I just couldn't today. So this is more my thoughts rather than a continuation of the conversation (In my defense so have most of the other posts)

Cost

Yeah it costs a lot and putting upgrades on it is just going to increase its cost. But the Cheapest version is 30 points and the PS 8 version is only 7 points more that is only an increase of 23% Compare that to a TIE Fighter 12 vs 18 points, it is an increase of 50%.

I expect we will see plenty of the named pilots. Though I think the low skill TIE Defender has a real place. Especially if there is one with a EPT upgrade.

Defense

Wow this ship is going to be hard to kill. 3 agility and 6 hits. The only ship with more than 5 hits that has more than 1 agility is the Fire Spray. So yes the Defender is a lot of points, but they are not going to be glass cannons like Interceptors. They may die quickly in games, but because of all the hate they will attract not because it will be easy.

Dial

I think this is what I am the most excited about. I am not going to say that we know how this will play. Sure its K-turn is white by all its hard turns are red.

I imagine it will feel like a WWII Messershmitt. It is so fast, it will dive through a battle, and maybe dive out again, before turning around and coming back. But it will not be able to to tight dog fighting.

I am sooooo glad that they didn't just give it a all around awesome dial and say, "sure its an expensive ship, it is good at everything"

Upgrades

I saved this for last on purpose. I think there has been more discussion about Predator and Outmaneuver that everything else on this forum. People have pointed out that they like Outmaneuver better. When its effect triggers it is slightly more useful than the main effect of Predator. Outmaneuver basically turns anyone into Backstabber(the exact effect is different, but they both are an offensive bump in the same circumstances), which is pretty awesome. But as anyone who has played Backstabber can tell you you don't get the effect every turn you shoot. Predator's main effect you do get every turn. And it is the Ultimate Anti-Swarm upgrade. Even more useful IMO than Assault missiles. It is going to be the bane of all those cheapest level ships. If nothing else Predator will encourage more of the middle PS ships.

Don't get me wrong, both upgrades are awesome. I really want to put Outmaneuver on Backstabber. It might be too expensive of an upgrade to put on Backstabber, but I would just love to come in behind someone into range 1 and get 4 attack dice and deny them one of their agility.

I am more likely to give Vader Outmaneuver and send him on a flanking run.

Backstabber can't have an EPT

My biggest complaint is that the Defender generics aren't PS 3 and PS 5. You'd think the best the Empire has to offer would be better than PS1.

My number one complaint as well. These pilots shouldn't be in the same categories as rookies and academy pilots. 30 points for a pilot that could be close to death before he even gets a chance to shoot is a little extreme. You will have to play very carefully with Tie Defenders unless you want a short match.

Anybody get a chance to try out maneuvering the ship on the tabletop? My gaming group was a little skeptical at first but so far we've been pleasantly surprised to find that the Defender dial to do okay just because it tends to push engagements to longer ranges with its 3 turn and 4 kturn. Since you aren't pulling the same hard 1 and 2 turns as your opponent and have the ability to pull the 4 k turn over and over, the dogfight ranges start to increase.

Anyone have their own findings from trying out the maneuver dial? From what I've seen on the table the Defender may be the meanest HLC platform so far.

This thread is going to make me revive my 3 B-wings with Autoblasters list.

You know, I am really, really liking Rexlar with an Ion Cannon. Don't joust. Because he will ion you, then K-turn behind you. And if you shields are down, suddenly, that one Ion damage could be a whole lot more dangerous.

Outmaneuver on the Phantom is going to be just mean.

Autoblaster might actually be a valid counter to Whisper with Advanced Cloaking Device, who is perpetually at 4 defense dice.

That's probably about the only example though. I'll have to run some numbers. It's not high on my priority though.

I kinda doubt an Autoblaster will ever have a shot at a Phantom outside of a very lucky situation. The extreme maneuvering from the 2-roll and 2-boost should keep it well outside the arc.

That's all true, I was speaking strictly from the mathematical point of view, i.e. is Autoblaster fundamentally worse than 4 dice at range 1.

Might be good against the potentially high defense of the e-wings and a-wings as well.