Cifer said:

All they have left is there hate, hatred for flesh, for life, for themselves

Brother Praetus said:

Different kind of Phasing Out - "Phase Out" in the general sense is the act of teleporting back to a Tomb World to regroup and repair - individually, or as a group (even Necron fleets phase out rather than disengaging in a more conventional manner). A Necron too badly damaged for its self-repair mechanisms to bring it back into the fight quickly will phase out to either be repaired by a Tomb Spyder or to have its consciousness transferred into a new body. Wraiths phasing through things is a different matter entirely.

The way I'd represent that, personally, is as follows:

Self-Repair and Phase Out

Necron bodies are continually renewing themselves, repairing the wear and damage that come from battle. At the start of every turn, a Necron makes a Routine (+20) Toughness Test . If this is successful, the Necron will regain 1 wound or remove 1 point of Critical Damage. If the Necron is not Critically Wounded, failure has no consequences. If the Necron is Critically wounded, this test becomes one-step more difficult for every point of Critical Damage the Necron has, and failure means the Necron's damage is too severe to repair quickly in the field, and the Necron Phases Out, teleporting away from the battle (along with any removed components and trappings not otherwise prevented from teleporting) to be repaired on its Tomb World.

For example: A Necron Warrior has just taken three wounds from a bolter shell. At the start of its turn, it must make a Toughness test at +2 0 to recover one of those lost wounds. Later in the battle, that same Necron Warrior has suffered 2 points of Critical Damage. His Toughness Test is now two-steps more difficult, and thus must be passed against his basic Toughness score. If he were to suffer another point of Critical Damage, the Toughness Test would be at -10 instead. If he fails a Toughness Test while Critically Wounded, the Necron will phase out.

Phasing out on an army scale is really a decision to be made by the GM on behalf of the Lords commanding that particular Necron force, rather than something to be represented mechanically (in 40k, it's a balancing mechanism for what is essentially an extremely resilient horde army, in Epic, it's how Necron formations regroup, returning to the battle through a portal in the next turn, and in BFG, it's how Necron ships disengage from combat, and an entirely voluntary matter).

Originally I was thinking, make a Toughness test and regain 1 wound +1 per DoS. But that's too much bookkeeping.

Instead I've been thinking that at the beginning of every turn a necron AUTOMATICALLY regenerates 1D5 wounds. If it is reduced to 0 wounds at any time it has become damaged enough to automatically phase out.

This means necrons don't suffer criticals at all (, they should imo be thoroughly machine, although with the limitations of the system we are stuck with human based stats) but take a while to actually kill. All you have to do is reduce it to 0...

Hellebore

Instead I've been thinking that at the beginning of every turn a necron AUTOMATICALLY regenerates 1D5 wounds. If it is reduced to 0 wounds at any time it has become damaged enough to automatically phase out.

I prefer having a state where it is down, but can still repair itself to have that classic terminator "Whew, we killed it... wait, why is it getting up again?" moment.

Hellebore said:

I for one like the simplicity of that. Not too much book keeping, hard to put down but not impossible.

For that 'it's finally down...oh sh-!' feel:

It falls prone when it reaches 0 wounds. It must then take a Toughness test at the beginning of every round, if it fails it phases out, if it succeeds it stands back up with 1D5 wounds. However, to prevent it acting like one of those bobing heads that never falls over, it would automatically phase out at -10 wounds (or a 10 level Crit) - although it will automatically go prone when it hits 0.

Example: The necron is reduced to 1st level crit. It must past a tougness test or phase out. It passes and stands up with 3 wounds (rolling a 4 on the D5). Next turn it takes a 5th level crit from one PC (and as it passed 0 it is now prone) and another PC does 5 more wounds to it, reducing it to a 10th level crit and forcing it to automatically phase out.

Or something like that. I get visions of people shooting the necron down to the ground and just pumping rounds into it for a minute trying to get it to stay down.

Hellebore

I like= Nice work and thank you very much, and everyone else that has helped out.

Hellebore said:

Like the rule but I would add:

Unless slain by a weapon which has a Power Field!

Santiago said:

Which alas reminds me of the shortest-lived rule ever to grace the Necrons: when they first appeared in White Dwarf in 2nd edition, mere months before third edition was released, the mere presence of Necrons caused power weapons to deactivate. If you hit a Necron Warrior with a Power Sword, by the time it got close to the Necron's body, it was just a sword.

That rule alone made them terrifying in melee, and then was scrapped and reversed in 3rd edition, with Necrons becoming more vulnerable to power weapons.

To treat them more like machines you could simply add a weapon's Penetration value to the damage as wounds (rather than it only applying to the 'armour'). Thus power weapons et al cause more of an affect and high Pen weapons like the type that tend to insta gib them in 40k TT will be more dangerous. It balances somewhat the ability to automatically heal 1D5 wounds every 5 seconds. It will only have a noticeable effect with the more heavy duty weapons (multi meltas, lascannons, chainfists etc) as with an armour value of 8 most Pen values are less than that anyway.

Or you could go back to the roots of the necrons and have them as walking EMPs that screw with all sorts of technology, rendering your power weapons et al useless (well, mundane swords at any rate).

The necrons should be very scary. If their technology isn't simply superior to everything elses then that 60 million year old advanced tech doesn't look very spectacular.

DH is an opportunity for the truly advanced technology of alien races to shine, where a shuriken pistol isn't just a bolt pistol (like it is in TT) but a deadly fully automatic pistol that tears its target to pieces, or where the psychoreactive armour of the eldar isn't just a form fitting AP value, but a psychically controlled self hardening substance more like the symbiote that Venom/Carnage wears. Or where the unlimited energy drawn by necrons from the universe around them allows them to power their weapons indefinitely and strip the very atoms of their target, inexorably rendering them into so much radiation.

This applies to some Imperial tech (specifically related to the Admech) but really comes through with the old races, necrons, eldar, and others that haven't been explored yet.

Anyone want to have some fun doing Jokaero? It would be neat developing rules for their techmimicry and Macgyver talents.

Helleboer

Something that occurred to me and something that I think would be good with the necrons is to show their vulnerability to warp based energy. The C'tan were driven back because the races they fought used warp magic, to me this indicates that warp magic can really mess with the energy flow and inner workings of the necron machinery. Otherwise shooting a warp lightning bolt at a necron would be no worse than shooting a lasgun, making the point of warp powers somewhat moot.

So, perhaps necrons can't regenerate damage taken from warp energy? It fundamentally messes with the energy grid/matrix whatever that the necrons draw their energy from, sort of like an EMP.

That would make the psyker the most potent weapon against them. Just another thought. Remember that the 40k tabletop is pretty abstract and simplified so they aren't going to represent something like that in the rules.

Hellebore

Ah, but Hellebore, at the same time it could be argued that there's so little of the Necron's "soul" left that there's not much for psychic powers to affect and/or damage. Plus remember they have an extensive array of anti-psyker weaponry (from the Monolith's Nodel Grid to the Pariahs to their ability to use psi-reactive materials shaped in multi-dimensional figures that drive away the warp). I'd say that therefore things even out that psychic powers do no more or less harm than a regular weapon.

I was thinking more in terms of the 'physics' of the necrons unravelling when warp energy is applied to them. The C'tan really don't like warp energy but don't have a soul per se. Warp energy is their one weakness (DUNDUNDUNNNN!!!). I was just spreading it to the necrons as well (as they are supposed to be built with the freaky technowierdness of the C'tan).

Just an idea though.

Hellebore

But then the patry would need a way of taking down pariah, if they render Psykers useless really then the group would just have to slog it out witha pariah :/

The Baron said:

But only if those things are present. If, for example, Resource Procuring Lord IncomprehensibleAlphanumericString is sending a raiding party against an outpost that consists only of Necron warriors, they could be vulnerable.

Also something to remember about Pariahs-they aren't full necrons. They don't have the "we'll be back" rule, don't have regeneration, etc. They are scary things, causing fear checks, and they screw with psykers, and they carry WARSCYTHES. You know, the ones that in the TT game ignore armor and invulnerable saves? Yeah.

Well, all warp energy would do is remove the ability of the damage caused by it to be regenerated (until it was repaired). So removing the psyker wouldn't necessarily make it impossible to take down the necrons. The pariahs are there precisely BECAUSE the necrons and c'tan don't like psykers, so they developed anti psychic defences.

Anyway, like I said it was just an idea. We're all free to design our necrons how we wish.

Hellebore

Thanks to all who have participated in this thread. I have so many ideas now that I have to sit down and make sense of them all. My party of players will be cursing your names in short order=

captainflakk said:

hehe, good to hear Captain Flak . Please do post what you come up with!

Also mate, remember that the warp is merely the 3-dimensional expression of an anomally contained within somewhere above the 25th dimension, as revealed by Barrington J. Bayley (RIP). Make of that what you will.

LOL. Exactly. If what I come up with is not cannon I could really care less as long as ther players are a) challenged b) have fun and c)poop themselves (or at least come close)= Being close to cannon is my aim as a few are 40k tabletop players, but as long as I am close (yup I play orks and it's always "close") I will be happy.

captainflakk said:

An Ork player?!?! This explains a lot mate (I happen to love Orks myself, though don't play them seeing as how I'm not laid back enough). As you can imagine, I'm a Chaos player whose just waiting for GW to release a "Dark Mechanicus" Codex.

Truth be known, it's not hard to come close to canon with Necrons. Don't forget that after the backlash over the C'Tan and how they changed the entire foundation of 40k Xenos lore GW has been reorganizing everything. Therefore, visa vi, if your players complain (though I know you'll do a good job, so they probably won't, but just in case...) tell them that GW has no clue WTF they're doing either .

The Baron said:

GW knows exactly what they're doing. And what that is; typically, would be not letting the right hand know what the left is doing.

But in all seriousness. One of things I actually like about GW's history and backstory is that nothing is certain. After all, look at how much technology the Imperium has lost, how much time the Eldar have been around. I enjoy the inconsistencies and contradictions because it keeps you guessing and allows for significant leeway in interpretting so it all fits your campaign needs.

-=Brother Praetus=-

adequitio intellectus et rei

So I would do something like this:

Gauss Flayer; Type Basic; Range 100m; RoF S/-/-; Dam 1D10+5E; Pen 1D10; Clip -; Rld -; Qualities Gauss*, Disintegrate**

Gauss Blaster; Type Basic; Range 100m; RoF S/3/-; Dam 1D10+6E; Pen 1D10; Clip -; Rld -; Qualities Gauss*, Disintegrate**

Gauss Cannon; Type Heavy; Range 120m; RoF S/3/-; Dam 2D10+6E; Pen 1D10; Clip -; Rld -; Qualities Gauss*, Disintegrate**

Heavy Gauss Cannon; Type Heavy; Range 200m; RoF S/-/-; Dam 2D10+6E; Pen 2D10; Clip -; Rld -; Qualities Gauss*, Disintegrate**

Pariah Warscythe; Type Basic; Range 80m; RoF S/3/-; Dam 1D10+6E; Pen 1D10; Clip -; Rld -; Qualities Gauss*, Disintegrate**

In Melee the Pariah Warscythe uses the following profile:

Type Exotic; Dam 2D10E; Pen 8; Qualities Cumbersome, Phase Weapon

Phase Weapon: These weapons phase in and out of reality, bypassing all impediments until they solidify inside the target. Phase weapons ignore TB and all APs on the target, whether they be from energy fields, armour, or natural abilities. They do not ignore points from psychic powers however. If a phase weapon is parried the parrying weapon is automatically destroyed. Power and equivalent weapons are destroyed on a roll of 50 or less. If the phase ability has been turned off or suppressed for whatever reason, the weapon has the penetration given in its profile.

*Gauss: Weapons with this rule strip the target atom by atom. They have a random Penetration roll that permanently removes points of armour from the location struck, and also removes points of TB from that location (until medical attention can be received). Roll each time the weapon is fired and use the number rolled for all shots in that action. Gauss weapons cannot jam and have an unlimited clip size whilst carried by a Necron.

**Disintegrate: See the Slaugth special rules in Disciples of the Dark Gods.

All Necron weapons, unless stated otherwise, may be used in melee as a mono axe.

I was also thinking that the different levels of necron lord would have increasingly higher Insanity Points. Lords would act as foci for units below them, allowing them to act in a more coordinated fashion. Without the lords the necrons are less responsive (although they will still fight in melee etc).

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Intriguing stuff, Hellebore. My main contribution here would be this suggestion: Lowliest Necrons have highest insanity points.

Which is to say: The 'basic warrior' is tantamount to being utterly insane when it is not subject to an overlord's orders or set program. Indeed, that's the 'trick' with many necron forces: they are insane . Repeating the same tactics ad naseum, waves of warriors showing little or no ingenuity at all . The 'higher levels' simply aren't activated, for one reason or another.

But, the 'higher' the scale you go, the less insane your necrons are. So whilst the likes of Wraiths and Flayed Ones might be somewhat more canny and sane in their tactics, they aren't exactly sensible. Then you get to Destroyers and Immortals: They're relatively sane for soldiery purposes, but given a more complex task than assaulting a particular force then you're....well, you're buggered.

The lords would then be the more 'sane' of the bunch: they retain some of their clarity, their drive, their purpose. Some can concot grand schemes, some can merely concot a ****-well organised assault to wipe out the forces of a planet.

The insanity (or loss of self), it is implied, comes with repeated killings. As the individual 'soul' is reincarnated into another metal shell, the mind is steadily driven mad. (Imagine a +2D10 if IP<20, +D10 IP<40, +D5 IP<60, +1 IP<100 each time you are reincarnated, for example. Thus, for bad [high] rolls, a Necron might only need to 'die' and be reincarnated 27 times, without any other factors involved, before going utterly bonkers.) Treating this as the case, I could easily see the 'frontline' soldiers having been highly intelligent, fearsome soldiers 'once upon a time', but after aeons and decades of war, umpteen 'complete' disassemblies and reincarnations to utterly new bodies...well, the warrior is bonkers. But a highly skilled, careful or just **** lucky Lord might have survived with only mild issues on the old insanity point problem

(A good +2D10IP for every new 'order of magnitude' of years you'd lived for might also make sense. So if we exclude the 1s and 10s [everyone has 'em], then they get a +2D10 for being over one hundred, +2 for over a thousand, +2 for tenthousand, +2 100,000, +2 1,000,000 and we're probably safe to say that most Necrontyr were converted long before the end of the War in Heaven, so lets go to +2 for 10million and another +2 for twenty million. Thus, by that rather arbitrary measure, any given Necron is probably at least 14D10 insane, by now)

In that regard, it lets us span the whole spectrum of "Wow, Necrons are fearsome soulless 'undead' killing machines, literally!" through to "Well, they might be ferocious roboterrors, but there's still a spark of life in 'em, still a glimmer of sentience and a guttering of a soul...and it's central thought is 'Destroy all life'!"

This also highlights why the Necrons mightn't be the best servants of the C'tan. Whilst they are (utterly?) controllable, there's little room for independent action (excluding a relative handful of lords who've remained some semblance of sanity, but who there are probably more than enough of to breath tons of horrid and despicable life into the faction), indeed 'independent' or 'malfunctioning' necrons would be at odds with the C'tan's general goals: Eat. You can't eat good food if the chef can't find any ingredients...

Anyway, the crux of the issue is for me that the best "Master Villains" the Necrons have to offer are those who are relatively sane, excepting a few oddball traits and beliefs...

Though I suppose the most practically 'powerful' may well be those Lords who're utterly insane, specifically the ones who sometimes think they're C'tan a la Dawn of War ...

Fascinating stuff though.

I was approaching it from the perspective that the higher up the 'ranks' you go, the more personality exists. The necron codex says that the immortals and lords were willing supplicants and retained more sense of self than the average necron.

So in that respect, an average necron doesn't have enough of a personality to go insane WITH. Only those that are effectively self aware and/or sentient in a more conventional manner would have the capacity to go insane.

That was my reading of it at any rate. Of course it doesn't necessarily mean that all lords must be invariably insane and I really like that idea of continual downloads ala Cylons eventually decaying their minds. I was thinking that a sentient self aware necron lord that has spent the most time in stasis and/or marauding has the most time to go insane. He's done it too long.

I don't really see the average necron as anything more than a servitor, an automaton with perhaps a ghost of a personality and vague fragments of memory.

Hellebore

Hmm, perhaps we're trying to approach the same idea. My outlook, as you could guess, is that the 'average necrontyr' wasn't entirely dissimilar to the average Tau, or Human, or Eldar, or Kroot. So they all started out as 'somebodies'. Those who went willingly only had, perhaps an initial D5 or D10 insanity (qualitatively, at least). Those who went unwillingly were somewhat unhinged by it all (8D10, say). Over time that is compounded by various factors. The most 'canny' or mentally survivable of those suffer the least insanity and, to this day, 'retain' that sentience'.

The basic warriors went overwhelmingly insane and are only 'kept functioning' by their overriding programming (i.e. a lord's control).

The more advanced ones still can go utterly bonkers (indeed: they probably did), but there's a handful of 'em who're still bloomin' aware.

What you are suggesting, if I'm getting it right, is that it's the advanced ones who have the capacity to go 'interestingly' insane, but haven't got anyone to override them? Seems reasonable and, I think, means we're not disagreeing, hooray!