Hello everyone

I'm creating this post to ask and hopefully gain more information about a question that I've been debating recently.

Simply put, can space marines actually become rogue traders?

It sounds quite odd but I've been wondering about it for a while now.

I know, or rather believe, that the Warrants of Trade, the legal provision for Rogue Trader status, are based on a hereditary system. I understand that these dynasties can actually stretch across dozens, if not hundreds, of actual relatives. Furthermore, I believe that the Warrant cannot actually be refused once issued.

So, what if a Rogue Trader line, in some distant offshoot, has a son that was actually accepted into a chapter of space marines. Then, by some chance or catastrophic misfortune, this son was left to inherit the Warrant of Trade, which he cannot refuse. What happens then? Does he leave his chapter of marines to take up his new role? Could he assimilate the Dynasty's holdings into the chapter?

What if he was high enough in the chapter, say captain or even chapter master? Would his entire chapter essentially fall under the purview of the Rogue Trader Dynasty?

Is this scenario actually plausible, do you guys think or am I simply postulating an insane idea?

I'd love to hear any feedback because I'm toying with this idea for the campaign and I'd like to know if there is at least story-based provision, before I move onto a more mechanical, real-world rules based issue.

I would say that there is no reason that a Space Marine could not legally inherit a Warrant of Trade. However a Space Marine who inherited a Warrant would be unlikely to actually use it since his vows to his chapter would take precendence (consider that a warrant of trade allows the owner to act as a Rogue Trader, it doesn't specifically require them to do so).

I think that the most likely scenario would be for the Space Marine to cede the Warrant to someone else (either a distant relative or a senior Chapter Serf) essentially creating a Rogue Trader dynasty that has extremly close ties to a Space Marine chapter (almost to the point of the dynasty being subservient to the chapter).

Now it's not impossible for the Space Marine to decide to leave his chapter and take up the reigns of a Rogue Trader dynasty. It's extremly unlikely but it's a big universe and stranger things have happened. If I were going to play a compaign like this I'd probably make it a dying chapter. Due to some calamity the chapter has been reduced to a bare handful of survivors and thier gene seed stock destroyed making it impossible for them to ever recover. The survivors are considering thier options (such as joining the Deathwatch as blackshields) when news comes that one of them has inherited a warrant of trade. Seeing the chance to cement the legacy of thier dead chapter they decide to take the warrant and the ships and head out into the expanse on a mini-crusade to reclaim worlds for the Imperium (and instill thier version of the Imperial Cult there) so that when they are dead there will still be someone to honor the Chapter's memory.

....

I know, or rather believe, that the Warrants of Trade, the legal provision for Rogue Trader status, are based on a hereditary system. I understand that these dynasties can actually stretch across dozens, if not hundreds, of actual relatives. Furthermore, I believe that the Warrant cannot actually be refused once issued.

....

Not all Warrants are based on the hereditary system. It all depends on the wording of the Warrant. The most common is the hereditary Warrant, but they can also be chosen successors, voted in successors, "whoever claims thy warrant successors," etc etc. The possibilities are endless.

With that said, what you propose can be possible. Back in the old RT table top days, Space Marines could be RT's. Never owned any of the books so I can't quote anything, but if you utilize the search function you might find the topic where they discussed it at. It might be this one http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/93962-space-marines-in-rogue-trader/?hl=%2Bspace+%2Bmarine#entry914930 but I didn't read all the way through it because I'm short on time.

Anyhoot, Adeon Hawkwood summed it up nicely. It's possible. Highly improbable unless under the right circumstances, but anything is possible.

Yeah, the sticking point would not be the legality of a SM inheriting the Warrant, it would be justifying the SM leaving his Chapter. SMs are 'programmed' for fanatical loyalty to their Chapter; if they have any memory of their previous life at all, it is dwarfed by their commitment to their duty as SMs.

The only way around this that I can think of is if his Chapter's Homeworld is destroyed, and so the SM takes up the Warrant as a means of searching for a new one...

As have been said, there is absolutely nothing actually preventing a Space Marine from becoming a Rogue Trader.

It is, however, quite unlikely.

What if the marine in question would not have been complete battlebrother yet, still in his marin auxiliary (scout) days. [fyi i dont have any deathwatch or black crude anyway]. I think it waould be like putting a quite unusual archmilitant in command ?

By scout marine i assume you are referring to acolytes, that is marines in training, in which case bear in mind just how potent even a scout is.

Taken as at the cusp of puberty, these children put through rigorous trials and extensive training, implantation and gene-modification. The 'adults' that come out of the other end of recruitment are hyper-talented 7-foot tall super-human warriors, more than a match for almost any human in a one-on-one fight.

Arch militants are on a par with veteran stormtroopers, inquisitorial warriors, ad-mech skitarii etc.

Marines, even scouts, regularly eat those l just mentioned for breakfast when it comes to combat.

Arch militants are on a par with veteran stormtroopers, inquisitorial warriors, ad-mech skitarii etc.

Marines, even scouts, regularly eat those l just mentioned for breakfast when it comes to combat.

Literally, in the case of a few chapters, as I recall.

Arch militants are on a par with veteran stormtroopers, inquisitorial warriors, ad-mech skitarii etc.

Marines, even scouts, regularly eat those l just mentioned for breakfast when it comes to combat.

Literally, in the case of a few chapters, as I recall.

Well bearing in mind that different chapters field scouts in VERY different ways:

• Black Templars use them in mixed units with fully trained marines - the 'neophtyes' serving as personal squires and meat shields till they earn their status as a full battle brother.
• Space Wolves field their recruits in Bloodclaw packs, who are eager to prove themselves in the melee of combat. These guys have power armour (not sure HOW as they technically don't have the black carapace yet) and tend to wield pistols and melee weapons. Space Wolf scout units are actually veteran marines who can use their keen senses (thanks to their gene-seed they have wolf like senses of smell and hearing) better while wearing lighter scout armour - these units roam ahead of the full battle force and undertake flanking, assasination and recon missions. Their loner tendencies also make it harder for them to function in regular units - another reason they operate remotely.

What if the marine in question would not have been complete battlebrother yet, still in his marin auxiliary (scout) days. [fyi i dont have any deathwatch or black crude anyway]. I think it waould be like putting a quite unusual archmilitant in command ?

You could have it be one of those individuals whose body rejected the Implants, and was living with the SM Chapter as a Serf/Man-at-arms/crew-member/scribe/etc etc.

So the person would be on par with whom Kasatka mentioned.

Fleet based chapters seem more likely to have ties to Rogue Trader houses than most. Some even have long standing relationships that result in Astartes being posted on the RT ships. It could be possible that the RT house in such a relationships had the family members wiped out and the RT arranged for the Warrant to pass to the Chapter. The Chapter might then choose a canidate for Chapter Master or Company commander to serve as the RT in order to gain experience and prove himself. This would also allow the Chapter to honor their fallen allies. The Marines Errant have a setup that would work well with that.

Their might be an member of such a RT House who was selected to become Astartes before the unfortunate death of the rest of his house and he might be released to serve as RT, basically under detatched duty. The hard part is going to be continuing the house. I imagine that a talented Genator might be able to isolate the human DNA from traces of the dead or even the Astartes to 'birth' a new member of the house and create an heir.

Fleet based chapters seem more likely to have ties to Rogue Trader houses than most. Some even have long standing relationships that result in Astartes being posted on the RT ships. It could be possible that the RT house in such a relationships had the family members wiped out and the RT arranged for the Warrant to pass to the Chapter. The Chapter might then choose a canidate for Chapter Master or Company commander to serve as the RT in order to gain experience and prove himself. This would also allow the Chapter to honor their fallen allies. The Marines Errant have a setup that would work well with that.

Their might be an member of such a RT House who was selected to become Astartes before the unfortunate death of the rest of his house and he might be released to serve as RT, basically under detatched duty. The hard part is going to be continuing the house. I imagine that a talented Genator might be able to isolate the human DNA from traces of the dead or even the Astartes to 'birth' a new member of the house and create an heir.

Good thinking WilliamAsher. Fleet based astartes chapters don't recruit from a single fixed point like most chapters, instead scrounging up suitable recruits wherever they can.

Perhaps many generations ago a Rogue Trader bumped into an Astartes recruiter and offered up his youngest son for selection. You know RTs love bragging and nothing better to brag about than "my son is a space marine lol!". So decades later the dynasty is lying in ruins and the hereditary line for the warrant is reduced to a single surviving 'heir' - the great-great uncle of the previous RT, the surviving space marine!

The chapter realizing that having a rogue trader dynasty in their pocket would be an incredibly useful tool for things such as recruitment (every colonized planet would have tithes of the strongest male children of appropriate age), supplies (access to ancient supply caches and trade routes only RTs are allowed to use) and support (able to use their advanced ships for scouting and fleet support activities).

So whether the battle brother likes it or not he is detached from his squad and sent off, perhaps with a handful of chapter serfs and servitors, to claim the warrant and ship, find a crew and then set out for the betterment of his chapter.

Better yet - if you have Deathwatch, then look into the Kill-Marine alternate rank - its pretty much ideal for situations like this, though you may want to remove any reference to the Deathwatch if you don't want the marine to have been a serving Deathwatch member.

Whoa. I got as far as

What if the marine in question would not have been complete battlebrother yet, still in his marin auxiliary (scout) days. [fyi i dont have any deathwatch or black crude anyway]. I think it waould be like putting a quite unusual archmilitant in command ?

You could have it be one of those individuals whose body rejected the Implants, and was living with the SM Chapter as a Serf/Man-at-arms/crew-member/scribe/etc etc.

So the person would be on par with whom Kasatka mentioned.

So... does that mean that the holder of the Warrant would be a Chapter Serf?

Does that mean that the Chapter would have a Rogue Trader at it's beck and call?

Good gods.

.....

So... does that mean that the holder of the Warrant would be a Chapter Serf?

Does that mean that the Chapter would have a Rogue Trader at it's beck and call?

.....

Sure, if the GM is evil. I'm sure the Chapter Master would stipulate only he or people he delegates can specifically order the Serf/RT around. Or, the Serf now RT is released of his ties from the Chapter so no one can actually order him. Or the Serf is just told that he is the new RT of blah blah Dynasty, and no specific questions or answers are given other than "Go and seek your destiny." Obviously, the possibilities are endless.

Yep, possibilities are endless indeed, but imo Inquisition would at least keep a vigil eye upon a chapter who find a way to effectively bypass the fleet-ban. I mean: saying that a former Flaming Cobra marine Joe isn't a Flaming Cobra anymore - so he can have this Repulsive and 5 escorts and 5 regiments of house guard and few colonies on top of it could irk somebody. Specially when playing after Badab War.

Whoa. I got as far as

What if the marine in question would not have been complete battlebrother yet, still in his marin auxiliary (scout) days. [fyi i dont have any deathwatch or black crude anyway]. I think it waould be like putting a quite unusual archmilitant in command ?

You could have it be one of those individuals whose body rejected the Implants, and was living with the SM Chapter as a Serf/Man-at-arms/crew-member/scribe/etc etc.

So the person would be on par with whom Kasatka mentioned.

So... does that mean that the holder of the Warrant would be a Chapter Serf?

Does that mean that the Chapter would have a Rogue Trader at it's beck and call?

Good gods.

Numerous Rogue Traders are essentially servants in some capacity. Even though Rogue Traders essentially have a similar status to that of Inquisitors, due to the overlapping nature of imperial laws and norms, it's not that much of a stretch.

There's been Astartes Rogue Traders, Inquisitorial Rogue Traders, and so on, and so forth. Their origins and current status is a matter of character growth and whatever backgrounds the story being told necessitates.

A servant of a powerful imperial organization being granted a Warrant of Trade so that that organization can operate by proxy sounds like exactly the kind of political manoeuvring you'd see in the Imperium.

Yep, possibilities are endless indeed, but imo Inquisition would at least keep a vigil eye upon a chapter who find a way to effectively bypass the fleet-ban. I mean: saying that a former Flaming Cobra marine Joe isn't a Flaming Cobra anymore - so he can have this Repulsive and 5 escorts and 5 regiments of house guard and few colonies on top of it could irk somebody. Specially when playing after Badab War.

Just because it can be done "legally" doesn't mean that it's not iffy. It's murky waters at best and if an Inquisitor or anyone in similar authority takes offence and can prove that it's just a way to get around restrictions, he or she can easily argue that it is in fact not at all an independent trade fleet, but a de facto Astartes Fleet of a now-renegade Chapter.

Any such organization utilizing a rogue trader in such a manner must also be wary to maintain the loyalty of said rogue trader. There's always the risk of the Rogue Trader eventually going.. well.. rogue .

If an Astartes Chapter would invest the resources and contacts necessary to secure a Warrant of Trade, and then sacrifice manpower to empower it, it's going to be expensive. And that's a lot invested in something or someone that might just up and leave one day, maybe three generations down the line, when the son of a cousin thrice removed decides that he is not beholden to the agreements made between the Dynasty and the Flaming Anus Chapter.

Actually the ban on fleets being owned and operated by the army was only an edict placed upon mortals.

Astartes always have and always will maintain their own vessels, from escorts such as raiders and frigates that might only carry a single squad to their mighty battleship-sized battle barges that carry several companies of space marines.

I don't see the Inquisition taking specific issue with an astartes chapter having ties or even control over an RT dynasty as long as that chapter is clearly a loyal chapter. Of course a suspected renegade chapter could become an issue, but then the Inquisition would just petition the high lords to annul the Warrant of Trade so that the dynasty can be taken into custody/destroyed when it next encounters an Imperial Navy group.

Actually the ban on fleets being owned and operated by the army was only an edict placed upon mortals.

Astartes always have and always will maintain their own vessels, from escorts such as raiders and frigates that might only carry a single squad to their mighty battleship-sized battle barges that carry several companies of space marines.

I don't see the Inquisition taking specific issue with an astartes chapter having ties or even control over an RT dynasty as long as that chapter is clearly a loyal chapter. Of course a suspected renegade chapter could become an issue, but then the Inquisition would just petition the high lords to annul the Warrant of Trade so that the dynasty can be taken into custody/destroyed when it next encounters an Imperial Navy group.

Yes but no

Astartes do have their fleets - no doubt about that, yet those consist of vessels suited mainly to planetary assaults and boarding actions (ok - and exterminatus). Afaik they're banned from having traditional gunships and carriers, it doesn't mean they've got nothing that can shoot or lunch small craft at all. Also to my knowledge chapters usually have like 1-3 battlebarges (I mean codex adhearing chapters) and few strike cruisers and escorts - having 1-3 battlebarges and few strike cruisers and escorts and 3 cruisers and 2 grand cruisers and 1 battleship can rise suspectons. Hell, even possibility of aformentioned can be iffy.

As you've mentioned there're chapters and chapters. First founding* (Space Wolves especially) can probably got 10 dynasties and get with it. We were taking about Flaming Cobras/Anuses and the issue here is that a fact of functionaly having a dynasty can be seen as an act of treason/rise suspections by itself.

So, yes - it's definitely possible, Astartes are not banned from getting privilages. Yet risky, as they're banned from getting some shiny stuff that get's along.

*I wonder if Ultramarines - with their Codexastartesphilia Syndrome - would accept something that can breach codex restrictions quite easy.

Yes but no

Astartes do have their fleets - no doubt about that, yet those consist of vessels suited mainly to planetary assaults and boarding actions (ok - and exterminatus). Afaik they're banned from having traditional gunships and carriers, it doesn't mean they've got nothing that can shoot or lunch small craft at all. Also to my knowledge chapters usually have like 1-3 battlebarges (I mean codex adhearing chapters) and few strike cruisers and escorts - having 1-3 battlebarges and few strike cruisers and escorts and 3 cruisers and 2 grand cruisers and 1 battleship can rise suspectons. Hell, even possibility of aformentioned can be iffy.

BFG Armada went into some detail, I believe it is reproduced in the BFG Revised project with very few if any changes. Try asking google for BFG_R and afterimagedan Battle Fleet Gothic Blog - or just click here .

Essentially, the Adeptus Astartes are allowed troop carriers "and support ships to keep these safe". Different chapters interpret this differently. Notably the Dark Angles in particular seem to need an awful lot of escorts to keep their troop carriers safe.

Astartes fleets appear to be purely comprised of Battle Barges, Strike Cruisers and a variety of escorts. Any ordinary cruisers (or * cruisers) would have to be from the Imperial Navy.

Mind you, Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges both are carriers, brimming with Thunderhawks, which should come as a surprise to no-one, as the greatest strength of the Astartes lies in fairly short ranged combat.

As you've mentioned there're chapters and chapters. First founding* (Space Wolves especially) can probably got 10 dynasties and get with it. We were taking about Flaming Cobras/Anuses and the issue here is that a fact of functionaly having a dynasty can be seen as an act of treason/rise suspections by itself.

So, yes - it's definitely possible, Astartes are not banned from getting privilages. Yet risky, as they're banned from getting some shiny stuff that get's along.

*I wonder if Ultramarines - with their Codexastartesphilia Syndrome - would accept something that can breach codex restrictions quite easy.

I actually have players that are thinking of turning over a Warrant of Trade to an agent of the Black Emissaries chapter recently founded in the Calaxis/Koronos area. The other possibility being that they hand over the warrant to one of their trusted minions for the purpose of expanding their operations. Ex-Lord Captain Feckwald (the previous scum owner of said Warrant) being too busy licking the deck of their flagship clean to complain. His servitorization and implantating with a self cleaning tongue to assist said efforts may have something to do with his silence.

I'm reasonably sure that the warships maintained by the Astartes are focused towards planetary assault and boarding actions because that's what the Astartes specialize in- getting the Marines into combat.

They maintain RSVs geared almost entirely for void-warfare with as little as a lone space marine aboard, because they do need escorts, scouts and patrols. I have no doubt that the Black Templar could field a more traditional cruiser if they had any interest- but they're too full of hate and really just want to sink chainswords into xenos/traitor/unclean flesh, so they use vessels that are good for that.

I believe BFG lets a SM chapter take any battleship, grand cruiser or battlecruiser as the start point for a battlebarge, imperial or chaos, so you could see some very void-combat heavy flagships, for example. Also remember that while strike cruisers have a rep for being combat-capable troop carriers, anything loaded with bombardment cannons is a serious threat to voidships. Those things hurt. They also have the option of ditching the launch bays and taking torpedo tubes or more bombardment cannons instead, so there's that too.

In short, the "SMs don't have space-superiority fleets" idea is a stereotype that isn't always true.

The big thing a chapter would gain from having an RT in their pocket? Logistics. So much logistical support.

I'm reasonably sure that the warships maintained by the Astartes are focused towards planetary assault and boarding actions because that's what the Astartes specialize in- getting the Marines into combat.

They maintain RSVs geared almost entirely for void-warfare with as little as a lone space marine aboard, because they do need escorts, scouts and patrols. I have no doubt that the Black Templar could field a more traditional cruiser if they had any interest- but they're too full of hate and really just want to sink chainswords into xenos/traitor/unclean flesh, so they use vessels that are good for that.

I believe BFG lets a SM chapter take any battleship, grand cruiser or battlecruiser as the start point for a battlebarge, imperial or chaos, so you could see some very void-combat heavy flagships, for example. Also remember that while strike cruisers have a rep for being combat-capable troop carriers, anything loaded with bombardment cannons is a serious threat to voidships. Those things hurt. They also have the option of ditching the launch bays and taking torpedo tubes or more bombardment cannons instead, so there's that too.

In short, the "SMs don't have space-superiority fleets" idea is a stereotype that isn't always true.

The big thing a chapter would gain from having an RT in their pocket? Logistics. So much logistical support.

Yeah id like to challenge any group of players who feel marines don't have fleets that can handle massed void combat to send vids of them performing chaos rituals directly to a marine chapter master and sit around waiting for them to show up.

Astartes vessels offer superior armour, superior close range firepower, pretty much the pinnacle of the Imperium's boarding action capability and incredibly competent crews.

As i said in a previous post, logistics and the ability to tithe potential recruits for the chapter are a HUGE deal for a chapter of marines, and so while the marine dumped with the warrant might begrudge being removed from his unit and not being able to seek glorious battles and a fitting death with his brethren, he'll soon come around to how vital his new role is.

Oh man. I see a new position in this chapter opening up, right there with the Master of Sanctity and the Chief Librarian, in this decidedly (suddenly) non-codex chapter.

The Quartermaster? Master Logistician?

Noted, as something to throw at a RT group as a rival or at a BC group as an adversary.

In Tzeentch-infested universe there isn't something like "always true", that's for sure

My opinion on Space Marines being banned from having some vessels is based upon BFG p. 54 Space Marine Fleets from which I'd quote one sentence: "Only the smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships with larger battle barges and strike cruisers remaing predominantly as aids in invasion, ensuring that Space Marines would never present a threat to Imperial Navy proper." So, at least Codex adhearing, Chapters shouldn't have battleships and such.

That said, I'm 100% cool with multiple interpretations of fluff being valid. It's all about having fun.

You make a good argument towards codex-adherence, but I suspect the entries allowing any heavy cruiser to battleship ranged vessel to be the basis of a Venerable Battle Barge and the options to swap out the prow launch bays on the Strike Cruisers (pages 57 and 59 of the 2010 compendium) are how they account for fleet-based chapters who don't choose to adhere to the Codex so much. Like, say, the Black Templar, the Black Dragons and the Charnel Guard.

Also, on page 53 of the 2010 compendium, I find your line about "larger strike cruisers and battle barges remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper." This is followed immediately by the line "Inevitably the wrangling over interpretation of a ship's 'primary role' leads to some chapters possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with," which suggests that not everyone follows this stereotype.

Codex-chapter fleets would certainly focus in assault vessels and classic strike cruisers, but I could easily imagine fleet-based chapters who wish to use more traditional warships rather than assault packages. They would certainly be the exception rather than the rule, not least because assault-package fleets are so synergistic with the Space Marine skillset.