In case of the Defender, it's more the 3/3/3/3 statline they're paying for, methinks.

That's nice to say, but it doesn't add up.

The "x-factor" which has always thrown out the "how much do the elements of a ship cost" calculations can all be pointed to dial differences and this is true in the case of the Defender as well.

Based on their stats alone the Defender would be costed in the mid 20's for points, 26 or 27 tops. They are only one agility and one shield up on an X-Wing after all.

In case of the Defender, it's more the 3/3/3/3 statline they're paying for, methinks.

That's nice to say, but it doesn't add up.

The "x-factor" which has always thrown out the "how much do the elements of a ship cost" calculations can all be pointed to dial differences and this is true in the case of the Defender as well.

Based on their stats alone the Defender would be costed in the mid 20's for points, 26 or 27 tops. They are only one agility and one shield up on an X-Wing after all.

It's not quite that exact a formula we thinks...but yah, those previous formulas do have the defender as a few points lower. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that in epic/cinematic they would have been just as bad as 9 tie swarms and 5 rookies would have been if they were one cheaper...expand that out to 250pts or so and I think you're looking at the reason the Defender is a tich more than anticipated.

TBH if the upgrade reduces the amount of hullpoints on the table thats a good thing for the empire. Right now B-wings are problematic largely because they offer a large bump in HP over the Xwing for only 1 point more with no loss to firepower + has a better dial (1 sharp; even a red one, is huge) + movement tricks with barrel roll.

If the rebels voluntarily take less of that filth I will be happy.

In case of the Defender, it's more the 3/3/3/3 statline they're paying for, methinks.

That's nice to say, but it doesn't add up.

The "x-factor" which has always thrown out the "how much do the elements of a ship cost" calculations can all be pointed to dial differences and this is true in the case of the Defender as well.

Based on their stats alone the Defender would be costed in the mid 20's for points, 26 or 27 tops. They are only one agility and one shield up on an X-Wing after all.

It's not quite that exact a formula we thinks...but yah, those previous formulas do have the defender as a few points lower. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that in epic/cinematic they would have been just as bad as 9 tie swarms and 5 rookies would have been if they were one cheaper...expand that out to 250pts or so and I think you're looking at the reason the Defender is a tich more than anticipated.

That doesn't fly.

Given their low defence the big ships are going to be more vulnerable to ordinary TIEs than anything else.

Everyone talks about clearing the way for getting big hits on the big ships, but a TIE swarm will do that better than anything else point for point.

So arguing that the Defender needed a points bump to make it less effective in the Epic game also doesn't fly as an argument.

Ahh, 10 pts for the Advanced Torpedo, Deadeye, and Recon Specialist. Assuming that the modification is 0 pts and doesn't take up some other upgrade slot. So, bare minimum of 38 pts for Ibby, 39 for Keyan, and 41 for Ten Nunb. Fairly expensive. And Dark Curse and Jax laugh at. Should be interesting to see if they can last long enough to get into range.

I am well aware that the rebels are getting good stuff. Where you lose me is that what they are getting is so much better than the Imperials. The Phantom is going to be extremely nasty. The Defender I think will be seen a bit more than many think. Just not more than one, which seems to be some weird guideline for many on what a good ship is.

I'm aware it's expensive... I hope it is otherwise ouch ouch ouch... I just don't look forward to the times when it doesn't die and gets that off.

In case of the Defender, it's more the 3/3/3/3 statline they're paying for, methinks.

That's nice to say, but it doesn't add up.

The "x-factor" which has always thrown out the "how much do the elements of a ship cost" calculations can all be pointed to dial differences and this is true in the case of the Defender as well.

Based on their stats alone the Defender would be costed in the mid 20's for points, 26 or 27 tops. They are only one agility and one shield up on an X-Wing after all.

It's not quite that exact a formula we thinks...but yah, those previous formulas do have the defender as a few points lower. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that in epic/cinematic they would have been just as bad as 9 tie swarms and 5 rookies would have been if they were one cheaper...expand that out to 250pts or so and I think you're looking at the reason the Defender is a tich more than anticipated.

That doesn't fly.

Given their low defence the big ships are going to be more vulnerable to ordinary TIEs than anything else.

Everyone talks about clearing the way for getting big hits on the big ships, but a TIE swarm will do that better than anything else point for point.

So arguing that the Defender needed a points bump to make it less effective in the Epic game also doesn't fly as an argument.

At a certain point most people will stop buying ties... I mean... really how many more ties do you need? If you already have 8-10 I know I would be more likely to buy other ships...And at a certain point the swarm gets pretty unweildly.

Sure, people won't buy more TIE Fighters.

But they'll still fly them.

Especially when they are the best ship in the Imperial list for the job.

That's why the questionable value of the newer Imperial ships is such an issue.

Comparing the costing of the A-Wing to the Interceptor, Defender and other TIE options paying for their dial and there is a fairly clear pattern, but it's not certain, still I think it's a fair argument.

It's a hypothesis, not an argument, and it needs evidence. It's easy to demonstrate that the A-wing is overcosted, but demonstrating a particular cause is harder.

I think my hypothesis is more plausible: I think A-wings overpaid for their missile slot because at the time FFG didn't want to risk lists with 5 Concussion or Cluster Missiles, and I think FFG overvalued 2 Attack fairly substantially. The largest piece of evidence for my position is that the other ship with 2 Attack and a missile slot is also substantially overcosted; supporting evidence includes the fact that in Waves 1-2 missiles were restricted to the Firespray and named Falcons (no more than 2 missiles per list) and A-wing and TIE Advanced (no more than 4 missiles per list).

And if you can't see that a pilot who ditches stress as an attack mod and the ability to add crew to an already powerful ship is "even better" then you are incapable of having a meaningful discussion.

A pilot who ditches stress as an attack mod is very good, yes. But that pilot pays a premium for his ability, since he's the same price as Wedge with lower PS, and he also has to find a reliable way to acquire that stress. There are talents that do that for him, but those make him more expensive still; he can use his dial to do it, but that means he's losing an action to gain an action.

And you're assuming that the ability to add crew to an already powerful ship is happening without an associated cost. Presumably we can agree that if it that mod cost 10 points it wouldn't be a boost to the B-wing's power at all, and if it cost -10 it would represent a clear balance problem. That in turn suggests that somewhere in between those two values there's a cost that makes it a reasonably well-balanced upgrade.

As for whether I'm capable of having a meaningful discussion, I'd invite you to consider the fact that I'm not the one implying that FFG is set to destroy their most successful game through careless design and testing.

There should be a rule like: "If Tycho has all stress markers you own, you lose the game"

I'm pretty sure that game would go to time in my case!

Ahh, 10 pts for the Advanced Torpedo, Deadeye, and Recon Specialist. Assuming that the modification is 0 pts and doesn't take up some other upgrade slot. So, bare minimum of 38 pts for Ibby, 39 for Keyan, and 41 for Ten Nunb. Fairly expensive. And Dark Curse and Jax laugh at. Should be interesting to see if they can last long enough to get into range.

I am well aware that the rebels are getting good stuff. Where you lose me is that what they are getting is so much better than the Imperials. The Phantom is going to be extremely nasty. The Defender I think will be seen a bit more than many think. Just not more than one, which seems to be some weird guideline for many on what a good ship is.

Funny thing just popped into my head: stealth+PTL+hull is 10pts. Interceptors can pay that much for more punch to be better. Also, 12pts is the cost of 3 sheild upgrades, the difference between defenders and interceptors if you had to buy them as mods...except the interceptor would still have a better dial, boost and evade...

Math is hard. Lets go to the mall.

I knew that the Defender was going to be garbage. For 30 points base, you might as well buy a Bounty Hunter. It is flat out better in all categories, including dial, and even more so with Recon Specialist. Both of the new elite pilot skills need to be a point cheaper to be worth it for me. Not to mention Predator feels like its tailor made for the Defender and Outmaneuver for Wedge.

I knew that the Defender was going to be garbage. For 31 points base, you might as well buy a Bounty Hunter. It is flat out better in all categories, including dial, and even more so with Recon Specialist. Both of the new elite pilot skills need to be a point cheaper to be worth it for me. Not to mention Predator feels like its tailor made for the Defender and Outmaneuver for Wedge.

I've been accused of wearing a tinfoil hat from time to time, but you sir are certifiable.

Both of those are pretty darn awesome. Awings would be able to take both for 2pts effectively? No. Bad. Bad.

Defender is not great but those actionless, stress less EPTs aren't.

I knew that the Defender was going to be garbage. For 31 points base, you might as well buy a Bounty Hunter. It is flat out better in all categories, including dial, and even more so with Recon Specialist. Both of the new elite pilot skills need to be a point cheaper to be worth it for me. Not to mention Predator feels like its tailor made for the Defender and Outmaneuver for Wedge.

I've been accused of wearing a tinfoil hat from time to time, but you sir are certifiable.

Both of those are pretty darn awesome. Awings would be able to take both for 2pts effectively? No. Bad. Bad.

Defender is not great but those actionless, stress less EPTs aren't.

Let's be real for a second, you really think the 30 point PS1 Defender bare bones is better than the PS3 BH at 33?

I knew that the Defender was going to be garbage. For 31 points base, you might as well buy a Bounty Hunter. It is flat out better in all categories, including dial, and even more so with Recon Specialist. Both of the new elite pilot skills need to be a point cheaper to be worth it for me. Not to mention Predator feels like its tailor made for the Defender and Outmaneuver for Wedge.

I've been accused of wearing a tinfoil hat from time to time, but you sir are certifiable.

Both of those are pretty darn awesome. Awings would be able to take both for 2pts effectively? No. Bad. Bad.

Defender is not great but those actionless, stress less EPTs aren't.

Let's be real for a second, you really think the 30 point PS1 Defender bare bones is better than the PS3 BH at 33?

Nope. But it would be nice to not have to move fatty around the board when i want a HLC though.

I really dislike the thought of deadeye + APT + recon bwings in the future. That's just not going to be fun to play against and I didn't think muti bwing could get much less fun to play against.

Rexler will take care of the B-Wings

Outmaneuver is not good on Wedge.

Yes there will bee times when A-Wings are look like this:

Green 19 - 2 + Outman 3 + Pre 3 = 23 Points

23 Points for a built-in Howlrunner+ and a Wedge light.

Now, what are you going to do?

I really dislike the thought of deadeye + APT + recon bwings in the future. That's just not going to be fun to play against and I didn't think muti bwing could get much less fun to play against.

Rexler will take care of the B-Wings

He still has to get 5 damage through on them before be even matters. If you're talking about ioning... Well...I'm still very very hesitant to drop my 3-4 damage potential down to 1, especially if I'm paying points north of 40 to do it. 2 rounds of regular fire from him could kill a bwing. 2 rounds of ioning it means I have to shoot at it for a 3rd or forth round to kill it.

Yes there will bee times when A-Wings are look like this:

Green 19 - 2 + Outman 3 + Pre 3 = 23 Points

23 Points for a built-in Howlrunner+ and a Wedge light.

Now, what are you going to do?

Have fun! Awings were already fun. Now they might actually do so effectively. I don't know that you need both; 1 and PTL will be more versitle. Heck, take one of each type for 46pts. Lots of room for 2-3 more ships.

Yes there will bee times when A-Wings are look like this:

Green 19 - 2 + Outman 3 + Pre 3 = 23 Points

23 Points for a built-in Howlrunner+ and a Wedge light.

Now, what are you going to do?

Have fun! Awings were already fun. Now they might actually do so effectively. I don't know that you need both; 1 and PTL will be more versitle. Heck, take one of each type for 46pts. Lots of room for 2-3 more ships.

I mean - what are you going to do as an imperial player ;P

Right ... swarm your Ties up and hope that Howlrunner survives a few rounds.

does OM also count for the back arc of the spray?

Then Boba + OM may be a valid option to do some damage

Maybe the Black Squadron pilots with Predator or Outmaneuver would be an option as flankers, since the greens have only PS3

It's a hypothesis, not an argument, and it needs evidence. It's easy to demonstrate that the A-wing is overcosted, but demonstrating a particular cause is harder.

I think my hypothesis is more plausible: I think A-wings overpaid for their missile slot because at the time FFG didn't want to risk lists with 5 Concussion or Cluster Missiles, and I think FFG overvalued 2 Attack fairly substantially. The largest piece of evidence for my position is that the other ship with 2 Attack and a missile slot is also substantially overcosted; supporting evidence includes the fact that in Waves 1-2 missiles were restricted to the Firespray and named Falcons (no more than 2 missiles per list) and A-wing and TIE Advanced (no more than 4 missiles per list).

That theory kind of runs into trouble when you compare the A-wing to the Interceptor though. The two have the same dials, the A-wing has 1 more THP, the Interceptor 1 more attack. Yet, even though the Interceptor lacks a missile slot, it is still more expensive than the A-wing. If the missile slot was the reason the A-wing is over-costed, then the Interceptor who lacks one should have been cheaper as well.

I must admit Predator looks tempting for black squadron. It's a point cheaper than expose or opportunist, and is about as dangerous.

It's a hypothesis, not an argument, and it needs evidence. It's easy to demonstrate that the A-wing is overcosted, but demonstrating a particular cause is harder.

I think my hypothesis is more plausible: I think A-wings overpaid for their missile slot because at the time FFG didn't want to risk lists with 5 Concussion or Cluster Missiles, and I think FFG overvalued 2 Attack fairly substantially. The largest piece of evidence for my position is that the other ship with 2 Attack and a missile slot is also substantially overcosted; supporting evidence includes the fact that in Waves 1-2 missiles were restricted to the Firespray and named Falcons (no more than 2 missiles per list) and A-wing and TIE Advanced (no more than 4 missiles per list).

That theory kind of runs into trouble when you compare the A-wing to the Interceptor though. The two have the same dials, the A-wing has 1 more THP, the Interceptor 1 more attack. Yet, even though the Interceptor lacks a missile slot, it is still more expensive than the A-wing. If the missile slot was the reason the A-wing is over-costed, then the Interceptor who lacks one should have been cheaper as well.

The A-wing pays for access to the missile slot, and for the extra durability compare to the interceptor, but the Interceptor pays for that extra Attack. I think it still works

Good point. It's kind of silly that a missile slot costs anything at all, really. Given how ridiculously expensive the unreliable one-shot ordnance is. It's stacking cost on cost for something many players don't even bother taking.