I'm sorry guys, but I have to call total BS here.

If the E-wing had Rexler's ability, we'd all be going ballistic right now over how broken the Rebels are because of YET ANOTHER awesome new ability. Seriously - stop and ask yourself, if this were on an E-wing with exactly the same offense, would you be saying "Well, yeah, it might be almost good, but since it needs a focus to work so it's really limited."

Pfft. Give me a break, because that doesn't even pass the smell test.

Edit: And just to be clear here, I still think the Imp Aces were underwhelming, I do think the new Rebels are universally awesome, the Defender certainly has a pretty bad dial, and Wave 4 is going to give plenty enough new options to the Rebels so the "Wave 4 will make it all awesome for the Imps" is a silly thing... But come on - if you can't acknowledge Rexler as good, you're so stuck in your own predetermined state of things that you're seriously losing perspective here.

Agreed, very solid ability. Ironically, his ability is a far better imperial counter than rebel counter.

Ironically, his ability is a far better imperial counter than rebel counter.

Yep. I would like an Imperial whose hits against shields take down two shields per hit.

Rexler is a killer ... if you equip him with a HLC ... and a 3 point EPT ... You might even kill Biggs with a single shot.

Very expensive though ... 47 points ... meaning you can't add Howl + 3 Academies, what you could do if you take Krassis with HLC as your heavy hitter...

It's not that rebel ships are better than Imperial one, it's that they are much less reliant on luck/dice to survive and overall have more way to get 3/4 attack dice. Add to that the fact that the game encourage offense by giving more ways to affect the attack than the defense and the dice being slightly in favor of attack with 1 more hit.

Ultimately, you only need one shot to get an Interceptor or Tie Fighter down. 3 success on the attack vs 0 for the defender, or 1 success+a direct hit critical/minor explosion vs 0 success. Paying 25 pts for a ship that get blown up by one shot can seriously mess with your game, even more so if it happens two time in the same game. But, it can go the other way around, you can roll 3 evade result on your defense dice all night long and suddenly, your TIE become the best tank in the game.

Meanwhile, against a B-Wing, you need a minimum of 3 shots with 3 dice to get it down, there is no way you will lose it from the first shot. And then we add the shield that mitigate the luck even more by absorbing the first crits while the shieldless Imperial fighters have no choice but to get them. Again, you can go in a game without seeing any crits, or you can see them pop out once every two shots.

So that's the big difference and why I think we don't see a lot of variety from the tournament list. Only way to counter luck/bad luck is to accept the fact that it's part of the game and try to mitigate it by not being screwed once it hit you, aka swarm or dodging line of sight. Meanwhile, the rebels can predict much more the survivability of their ships even if his opponent rolls are on fire, even more so if he rolls cold.

So, while I prefer to play the imperials, I can see why there is less variety in tournament list. But I don't consider them shafted or anything, you just need to fly better, they are more maneuvrable than the rebels, just don,t go head-to-head with your opponent.

Bwings cant carry crew members.

They will, once Rebel Aces swings around, next year or so.

Lots of things could happen between now and then. Seriously, Wave 4 as it currently stands looks like a far more robust release for the empire than the rebellion unless the E-wing's unrevealed pilots turn out to be absolutely amazing.

The crux of the perceived durability problem is that people are expecting the empire to be able joust. Jousting is bad. Stop being bad. If you want to joust play rebels then you can win jousts all day long. However if you dont win the joust you are going to be fighting an uphill battle vs your horrible horrible movement dials and lack of movement tricks.

The crux of the perceived durability problem is that people are expecting the empire to be able joust. Jousting is bad. Stop being bad. If you want to joust play rebels then you can win jousts all day long. However if you dont win the joust you are going to be fighting an uphill battle vs your horrible horrible movement dials and lack of movement tricks.

Nonsense, nobody expects anything but swarms or shuttles to be able to joust. Jousting isn't the issue, staying out of the firing arc of 4+ fighters is. The interceptor can potentially stay out of the firing arc of one fighter almost indefinitely at close range, but battles are rarely 1V1. In adition, the ability of an interceptor to stay out of firing arcs only really comes into its strength at low R2 to R1. Most combat engages at R3, at which point it is virtually impossible for an interceptor to avoid being in at least one firing arc.

The crux of the perceived durability problem is that people are expecting the empire to be able joust. Jousting is bad. Stop being bad. If you want to joust play rebels then you can win jousts all day long. However if you dont win the joust you are going to be fighting an uphill battle vs your horrible horrible movement dials and lack of movement tricks.

Nonsense, nobody expects anything but swarms or shuttles to be able to joust. Jousting isn't the issue, staying out of the firing arc of 4+ fighters is. The interceptor can potentially stay out of the firing arc of one fighter almost indefinitely at close range, but battles are rarely 1V1. In adition, the ability of an interceptor to stay out of firing arcs only really comes into its strength at low R2 to R1. Most combat engages at R3, at which point it is virtually impossible for an interceptor to avoid being in at least one firing arc.

If you are losing interceptors to single random 3 dice shots you are probably not evading enough. Some times you do. But most of the time that evade token will keep your boys in the game. 1 shot from 1 ship will not blow up your interceptor if you have an evade token on it. The only time you should be doing something other than putting an evade token on your interceptor is if

a) you are 100% sure that you are not in something's arc.

b) you will execute a move that you are 100% sure will take you out of everything's arc

You should NOT be focusing unless you have PTL and you sure as **** should not be doing nonsense like expose. And if you are consistently allowing situations where more than 1 ship is getting arc on your interceptors then you should probably not be using interceptors.

Wow, I love the new Interceptors. I can't believe they haven't gotten much love.

My biggest issue with interceptors before Aces was that they basically can only be fielded 1 was.

Soontir's ability is pretty lame if you don't put PtL on him. And Turr's ability pretty much demands PtL as well. Once you put PtL you need to protect your investment with either a shield upgrade or a stealth device. Don't get me wrong, these ships are fun to fly. But it is basically the only way you see them.

The Aces Pilots have abilities that are good on their own.

I am excited to fly Lorrir or Kanos unupgraded. They aren't super-heroes, but they are 23 and 24 points. At that cost, they will be a great boon if they work out, but don't ruin my day if they die too early. IMO this is what the Interceptors needed.

Other than the named pilots the Royal Guard is also a great ship. For 23 each you can a PS 8 ship. Interceptors love high PS.

What other squad can you fly with 4 PS 8 ships.

Or put on an other of the tons of great EPTs.

Yes they are all still in Interceptors and might still be one-shot-ed by a lucky X-wing, but making them cheaper (an not needing as many upgrades) makes that not as big of a deal.

Here's a fun list

Royal Guard Pilot + VI + SD x2

Royal Guard Pilot + VI x2

It may not be a great tournament list, but it would be a blast to fly. Just imagine saying, "Oh, I am sorry, my entire squadron get's to fire before Luke."

If you are losing interceptors to single random 3 dice shots you are probably not evading enough. Some times you do. But most of the time that evade token will keep your boys in the game. 1 shot from 1 ship will not blow up your interceptor if you have an evade token on it. The only time you should be doing something other than putting an evade token on your interceptor is if

a) you are 100% sure that you are not in something's arc.

b) you will execute a move that you are 100% sure will take you out of everything's arc

You should NOT be focusing unless you have PTL and you sure as **** should not be doing nonsense like expose. And if you are consistently allowing situations where more than 1 ship is getting arc on your interceptors then you should probably not be using interceptors.

Never said anything about evade, just that "stay out of firing arcs" is hardly as easy as people make it sound. At R3 it's all but impossible, and even with an evade action that's 1 or 2 potential hits before you get into optimal range. A statistically small potential, but potential nonetheless. And that's just initial encounter, what if you're trying to shoot a fighter in your R2 or 1, but an enemy fighter at R3 still has you in its arc? And when combat reaches R2/1 level and firing arcs are pointing in every direction, staying out of firing arcs becomes something that begins to rely more on luck than skill. Which goes back to interceptors being "high risk, high reward."

So no, saying "stop jousting and learn to avoid firing arcs" does not change the inherent risk factor of interceptors. They're good fighters, and I find them a heck of a lot of fun to play, but flying them without endurance modifications will always mean flying a coin-flip squadron. And that is what makes them the less popular Imperial option on tournaments. Because tournament players often choose consistency over risk.

Well ... the biggest issue with the Empire is: The Empire has no X-Wings.

If you would swap the Advanced values to 3-2-3-2, just like the X-Wing's, it would change a lot imperial lists.

I'm sorry guys, but I have to call total BS here.

If the E-wing had Rexler's ability, we'd all be going ballistic right now over how broken the Rebels are because of YET ANOTHER awesome new ability. Seriously - stop and ask yourself, if this were on an E-wing with exactly the same offense, would you be saying "Well, yeah, it might be almost good, but since it needs a focus to work so it's really limited."

Pfft. Give me a break, because that doesn't even pass the smell test.

Edit: And just to be clear here, I still think the Imp Aces were underwhelming, I do think the new Rebels are universally awesome, the Defender certainly has a pretty bad dial, and Wave 4 is going to give plenty enough new options to the Rebels so the "Wave 4 will make it all awesome for the Imps" is a silly thing... But come on - if you can't acknowledge Rexler as good, you're so stuck in your own predetermined state of things that you're seriously losing perspective here.

I'm sorry guys, but I have to call total BS here.

If the E-wing had Rexler's ability, we'd all be going ballistic right now over how broken the Rebels are because of YET ANOTHER awesome new ability. Seriously - stop and ask yourself, if this were on an E-wing with exactly the same offense, would you be saying "Well, yeah, it might be almost good, but since it needs a focus to work so it's really limited."

Pfft. Give me a break, because that doesn't even pass the smell test.

Edit: And just to be clear here, I still think the Imp Aces were underwhelming, I do think the new Rebels are universally awesome, the Defender certainly has a pretty bad dial, and Wave 4 is going to give plenty enough new options to the Rebels so the "Wave 4 will make it all awesome for the Imps" is a silly thing... But come on - if you can't acknowledge Rexler as good, you're so stuck in your own predetermined state of things that you're seriously losing perspective here.

Mostly because it would be more powerful in a rebel list. Between Garven and Kyle passing focuses and the fact many see the Defender as overcosted(along with the E-wing mind you) it makes the ability a bit like Maarek Steeles. Cool, but not going to come up much. I do like it, but it hurts the imperials more than the rebels. Why is thia guy so good at killing ties?

(1) Who are the "many" people who see the Defender as overcosted, and what evidence are they using? I'll spot you MajorJuggler, but I'm inclined to say the rest of the "many" are bandwagon-jumpers.

(2) Rexler Brath is good at killing TIEs (which, let's note, is not a bad ability for a Defender to have in canon), but he's also good at killing Falcons, Y-wings, and HWKs--that is, the ships most likely to irritate Interceptors.

(3) The right question about Brath isn't whether his ability would be better on a Rebel ship, it's whether it's a good ability on an Imperial ship. And there are enough ways for Brath to pick up hits with a Focus token left over that I think the answer has to be yes.

...

So no, saying "stop jousting and learn to avoid firing arcs" does not change the inherent risk factor of interceptors. They're good fighters, and I find them a heck of a lot of fun to play, but flying them without endurance modifications will always mean flying a coin-flip squadron. And that is what makes them the less popular Imperial option on tournaments. Because tournament players often choose consistency over risk.

so basically you don't want more options, since nothing will be more consistent statistically speaking than a bare tie swarm?

anything that adds optional things increases the risk (and if only the risk of spending points on something what could be half a tie point-wise and not get to be used). The problem is just greater for the Empire since the minimum ship price for the tie is so low.

perhaps the underlying problem is just the pricing of the TIE not in comparison to its features, but just because it sets the minimum ship level to low.

I'm really glad I don't work at FFG. I'd spend every day making really cool stuff only to get on the internet and have hundreds of people tell me I screwed up.

I'm sorry guys, but I have to call total BS here. If the E-wing had Rexler's ability, we'd all be going ballistic right now over how broken the Rebels are because of YET ANOTHER awesome new ability. Seriously - stop and ask yourself, if this were on an E-wing with exactly the same offense, would you be saying "Well, yeah, it might be almost good, but since it needs a focus to work so it's really limited." Pfft. Give me a break, because that doesn't even pass the smell test. Edit: And just to be clear here, I still think the Imp Aces were underwhelming, I do think the new Rebels are universally awesome, the Defender certainly has a pretty bad dial, and Wave 4 is going to give plenty enough new options to the Rebels so the "Wave 4 will make it all awesome for the Imps" is a silly thing... But come on - if you can't acknowledge Rexler as good, you're so stuck in your own predetermined state of things that you're seriously losing perspective here.

Mostly because it would be more powerful in a rebel list. Between Garven and Kyle passing focuses and the fact many see the Defender as overcosted(along with the E-wing mind you) it makes the ability a bit like Maarek Steeles. Cool, but not going to come up much. I do like it, but it hurts the imperials more than the rebels. Why is thia guy so good at killing ties?

(1) Who are the "many" people who see the Defender as overcosted, and what evidence are they using? I'll spot you MajorJuggler, but I'm inclined to say the rest of the "many" are bandwagon-jumpers.(2) Rexler Brath is good at killing TIEs (which, let's note, is not a bad ability for a Defender to have in canon), but he's also good at killing Falcons, Y-wings, and HWKs--that is, the ships most likely to irritate Interceptors.(3) The right question about Brath isn't whether his ability would be better on a Rebel ship, it's whether it's a good ability on an Imperial ship. And there are enough ways for Brath to pick up hits with a Focus token left over that I think the answer has to be yes.

At 37 points I don't think I will ever be using him outside of epic play. (Where his ability will be amazing.)

And so far you've described it as good against one great rebel ship that is also great against him(The Falcon due to its accuracy and love of high agility high cost enemies) and two ships that are rarely used and don't need "counters" so much as they need a little help.(Y-wing and Hawk)

so basically you don't want more options, since nothing will be more consistent statistically speaking than a bare tie swarm?

What? No! I specifically noted that the Imperial Aces making the interceptors more durable might see them get fielded more. I'm just saying that casually dismissing the Empire's weakness with what amounts to "lrn2barrel roll" doesn't quite work that way when you observe the battlefield as a whole

The current generation of Imperial fighters are high-risk high-reward. Imperial aces fixes the high-risk part (at serious expense, but it works) on the part of the interceptor. I don't quite know what this will mean for the other fighters, but at least interceptors are now less of a risk and might see more play.

If we can see more fixes like that (like something to give the bomber more consistent reliability that makes it easier to deploy ordnance, more reliable to do so or cheaper to do so) then we'll slowly see the swarm-meta diminish.

Have you not seen the discussions on the Defender? There has been a whole lot of worry about its cost from the first day we saw a 30 point PS 1. Describing that as bandwagon jumping is demeaning.

At 37 points I don't think I will ever be using him outside of epic play. (Where his ability will be amazing.)

And so far you've described it as good against one great rebel ship that is also great against him(The Falcon due to its accuracy and love of high agility high cost enemies) and two ships that are rarely used and don't need "counters" so much as they need a little help.(Y-wing and Hawk)

Don't quite know about him being limited utility. His ability might be useless against shields, but since he's often going to be paired with predator he's also going to be a great shield-stripper. Since you don't need to save the token when an enemy's shields are still up, you can spend your focus to get more hits after the reroll to get the shields down faster.

You are also leaving out how awesome he is against TIEs. Seriously, Fighter, Interceptors, and especially Bombers will fear Rexlar. Also add in that he can use his ability with the Ion Cannon, that means you can add a very interesting control aspect to him.

(1) Who are the "many" people who see the Defender as overcosted, and what evidence are they using? I'll spot you MajorJuggler, but I'm inclined to say the rest of the "many" are bandwagon-jumpers.

(2) Rexler Brath is good at killing TIEs (which, let's note, is not a bad ability for a Defender to have in canon), but he's also good at killing Falcons, Y-wings, and HWKs--that is, the ships most likely to irritate Interceptors.

(3) The right question about Brath isn't whether his ability would be better on a Rebel ship, it's whether it's a good ability on an Imperial ship. And there are enough ways for Brath to pick up hits with a Focus token left over that I think the answer has to be yes.

Have you not seen the discussions on the Defender? There has been a whole lot of worry about its cost from the first day we saw a 30 point PS 1. Describing that as bandwagon jumping is demeaning.

At 37 points I don't think I will ever be using him outside of epic play. (Where his ability will be amazing.)

I've seen them, which is why I asked about evidence. I disagree with MajorJuggler's methodology and I think his conclusions have limited validity, but he's at least got an argument. What I've seen in general is a lot of people saying "Expensive ships never work, so the Defender is overpriced!" And that, of course, ignores the fact that there are a lot of expensive ships that work, and the Defender might be fairly priced for its capabilities.

And it's never demeaning to describe something accurately. If you can demonstrate that there are a lot of people out there with facts and strong arguments for the Defender as overpriced in comparison to its value, I'll retract the bit about bandwagon-jumping.

You are also leaving out how awesome he is against TIEs. Seriously, Fighter, Interceptors, and especially Bombers will fear Rexlar. Also add in that he can use his ability with the Ion Cannon, that means you can add a very interesting control aspect to him.

And the fact is that it is of limited utility. You can't deny that. It will not come up on every or even half of his attacks. You cannot make a build where he can use it significantly more awesome(Your best bet being passing TL's for accuracy from Jendon, but hamstringing your manueverability is not going to help you.) From there you get HLC or the way overpriced Autoblaster.

You are also leaving out how awesome he is against TIEs. Seriously, Fighter, Interceptors, and especially Bombers will fear Rexlar. Also add in that he can use his ability with the Ion Cannon, that means you can add a very interesting control aspect to him.

I mentioned Ties a few posts ago.

And the fact is that it is of limited utility. You can't deny that. It will not come up on every or even half of his attacks. You cannot make a build where he can use it significantly more awesome(Your best bet being passing TL's for accuracy from Jendon, but hamstringing your manueverability is not going to help you.) From there you get HLC or the way overpriced Autoblaster.

Of course I can deny it. With 3 dice, you roll 0 eyes 42% of the time, so there's your floor for his effectiveness; the average number of hits and crits inside that 42% is 2.0, with a median and mode of 2. How effective that attack is likely to be overall depends on what other upgrades are in play (Predator in particular is likely to show up a lot, I think) and what Brath is shooting at, of course, but that's not a negligible frequency.

The factual statement that's lies behind your stubborn assertion here is that Brath really wants a way to increase his hit rate and/or damage without spending his focus token, and that is indeed a factual statement. But you're burying that beneath a puzzling refusal to acknowledge that it can be done--despite the fact that there are two upgrades in the same blister package that accomplish precisely that end, let alone Push the Limit, let alone the possibility of things like Vader + Squad Leader, Howlrunner, Jendon, or simply saving a target lock from the previous round.

If you are losing interceptors to single random 3 dice shots you are probably not evading enough. Some times you do. But most of the time that evade token will keep your boys in the game. 1 shot from 1 ship will not blow up your interceptor if you have an evade token on it. The only time you should be doing something other than putting an evade token on your interceptor is if

a) you are 100% sure that you are not in something's arc.

b) you will execute a move that you are 100% sure will take you out of everything's arc

You should NOT be focusing unless you have PTL and you sure as **** should not be doing nonsense like expose. And if you are consistently allowing situations where more than 1 ship is getting arc on your interceptors then you should probably not be using interceptors.

Never said anything about evade, just that "stay out of firing arcs" is hardly as easy as people make it sound. At R3 it's all but impossible, and even with an evade action that's 1 or 2 potential hits before you get into optimal range. A statistically small potential, but potential nonetheless. And that's just initial encounter, what if you're trying to shoot a fighter in your R2 or 1, but an enemy fighter at R3 still has you in its arc? And when combat reaches R2/1 level and firing arcs are pointing in every direction, staying out of firing arcs becomes something that begins to rely more on luck than skill. Which goes back to interceptors being "high risk, high reward."

So no, saying "stop jousting and learn to avoid firing arcs" does not change the inherent risk factor of interceptors. They're good fighters, and I find them a heck of a lot of fun to play, but flying them without endurance modifications will always mean flying a coin-flip squadron. And that is what makes them the less popular Imperial option on tournaments. Because tournament players often choose consistency over risk.

Everything you say is true except you are downplaying the ability of imperial ships to dictate engagement range. And its not just interceptors. Imperial ships are pretty spry with their green sharp turns and white 1 sharps. Rebel ships are horrible at turning. The absence of a 1 sharp turn on nearly all their ships means that once you get in their rear arc they are pretty much done. Yes you will suffer a couple turns of r3 shooting but if your opponent is able to consistently dictate the range of the combat its a huge deficiency in the way you are planning out your turns. Any time you are touching your green dice, you are losing. It doesn't matter if you are playing swarms, interceptors or b-wings. Any time you are having to roll green dice when there COULD have been a game state where you wouldn't have to is a mistake on your part.

And yes you will lose ships to random shooting. This is something that even the rebels have to deal with. Most of the time though when this happens, it happens because you made a mistake in maneuvering. Rebels just feel it less because their shields compensate a little for terrible play where TIE fighters cop it full in the face but the end result is the same. So yes the margin for error with Imperials is smaller. But not by much. The Imperial side however has access to tricks and synergies that the Rebels simply have no real answers. Yet. Its not high risk high reward. Its high skill, high rewards.

I have played both sides of the equation and simply put most of the Rebel game plan is based on drawing out the joust as long as possible coupled with waiting for the Imperial player to make a mistake with his dials. Once the fight becomes a furball it becomes an exercise in frustration when even the lowly Academy Pilot is flying rings around Wedge. IF a rebel player does what you seem to be advocating and spread his arcs around so that he gets maximum coverage then he is basically betting that his luck is better than his opponents. IF its not then the TIEs get the dream situation where only one ship gets to shoot at one TIE while multiple TIEs get to shoot back at a single target. And that will lose you the game eventually.

Note the percentage I gave. Not even half. That looks like exactly the amount you gave there. Between shields and crits and dodges not even half his attacks will allow him to flip up cards. And even when they do some of those cards won't matter. Personally. That is not worth it. If I'm paying 37 points for someone I want to know their ability is worth my time, because 7 pilot skill is not enough justification for the points. Not when I can get 3 Ties for the cost.

That's limited utility right there. Not useless. Limited. Limitless opportunity is something that always comes up. Wedge's ability is always useful. Ibtisam's ability can be made to always be useful. Tycho's ability is always useful. Jendon's ability is always useful. Dice modding abilities are always useful(if for no other reason than safety).

Tycho's ability is useful until you want to k-turn.

Tycho's ability is useful until you want to k-turn.

Munitions Failsafe should fix the issues with running bombers. You no longer have to worry about wasted points as long as you get your shot off before your ship blows up. That coupled with flechette torpedoes and ion pulse missiles for much cheaper ordinance makes running them alot more viable.

With Imperial Aces FFG was trying to nudge a popular that seemed to be just outside of tournament worthy(I personally don't agree with them not being tournament worthy but its the closest I could come to matching how many feel about the interceptor) into being a good alternative ship to running a swarm. Which I think they did. That being said with rebel aces they wanted to take the A-wing which everyone and their dog seems to think overcosted and that no one played even in casual games(again I am embellishing and have played and played agaisnt A wings) and turn it into a competitive ship. Something that I think they did better then with the interceptor but with the interceptor they just wanted a slight nudge in viability where as with the A-wing they wanted a good jump in use.

The Firespray and shuttle are great ships. It takes some time to get use to the large base ships and the flying the shuttle in particular but they are good ships.

I have never flown the advanced so I will just toe the line of it is overcosted/ in need of more pilots.

I actually hate flying the tie swarm it doesn't fit my play style and the dice are always cold when I do, but I can't argue with others results with it.

I can't wait to play the phantom. I have a few different list ideas already for it and it looks to be fun.

With the defender I still think its over costed not by much but I blame that on the dial, and that I am comparing it to the E-wing for its cost. I think we are paying too much for the white k turn, I realize its a ship that is meant to get behind its opponent and blow them to bits. Out maneuver being in the same box points that out. I just don't see it as being worth the cost. That said I will play with Rexler I like the idea of giving him an ion cannon. The defender is a ship that to me is really only meant to be flown with a mini swarm. You can't really fly 3 unless they are all very lightly upgraded and 2 ship lists are a bad idea.

The empire does have plenty of option atleast in the pipeline that don't consist of howl+swarm. Over all are imperials perfectly balanced with rebels? I don't think so I believe that rebels have a slight edge but that is basically rebel synergy and the versatility of astromechs.