Just saying he's probably not going to turn the meta on its head dawg. Soontirr and Turr only show up in niche lists. Jake will be the same.

Just saying he's probably not going to turn the meta on its head dawg. Soontirr and Turr only show up in niche lists. Jake will be the same.

Just saying he's probably not going to turn the meta on its head dawg. Soontirr and Turr only show up in niche lists. Jake will be the same.

I dunno, Interceptors are significantly different than A-Wings. While an Interceptor is a giant target because of it's huge threat level, A-wings slip under the radar as the least Juicy target the rebels have(Defense to Point Cost Ratio to offensive threat). Where an Interceptor screams "Kill me now or I will eat your army alive) and A-wing is more, save me till last. That doesn't change the fact they can do a whole lot of amazing work late game and actually makes them better flankers.

I dont know mang. TBH I always kill the A-wings first because they are free points.

Just saying he's probably not going to turn the meta on its head dawg. Soontirr and Turr only show up in niche lists. Jake will be the same.

I dunno, Interceptors are significantly different than A-Wings. While an Interceptor is a giant target because of it's huge threat level, A-wings slip under the radar as the least Juicy target the rebels have(Defense to Point Cost Ratio to offensive threat). Where an Interceptor screams "Kill me now or I will eat your army alive) and A-wing is more, save me till last. That doesn't change the fact they can do a whole lot of amazing work late game and actually makes them better flankers.

I dont know mang. TBH I always kill the A-wings first because they are free points.

That again seems a little off base. For example say I'm running ABBX with Jake sporting Outmaneuver and PTL with Jake flanking and the B's and the X running together, you would target Jake? Probably not.

I would because Jake is the most annoying and softest target in that lineup. Given 60 minutes rounds he offers the best return on 'time' spent killing him.

But the point is you'll be turning to face him and not my other three ships, letting them shoot with impunity. Jake with PTL, Outmanuver and the refit only clocks in at 28 points. That's as cheap as Turr with PTL and cheaper than Fel with PTL and tankier to boot courtesy of the shields, assuming you have a shot after he takes a focus and rolls followed by a boost or evade. It just isn't practical to turn turn and ignore the rest of my ships which you'll likely end up losing a round or two fire to if you target Jake decide to turn and focus on Jake first. Just seems like a poor tactical decision.

Hm... interesting, the closest Interceptor than can equip PTL would be Saber Squadron. Saber + PTL = 24pts.

As I mentioned above, while I WILL be flying A-wings when they come out with the refit and prototype, I think that for the points, the PTL Saber or PTL RG are both better ships than a fully kitted Green, thanks to higher PS, barrel role and an extra consistent red die. They are just flat out better at doing what they are supposed to do on basic level.

I just can't find a combination where the A-Wing becomes a better ship than the interceptor, unless you start spending more points and adding a shield or hull. Throw on Outmanuever or Predator and PTL with a shield or hull and you suddenly have a nastier beast, but at 26/27 points that puts you in E-Wing territory.

Maybe a Green PTL with VI keeps things cheap at 21 points, but you still just have the two red dice.

It just seems that solving one problem with the extra EPTs leaves you with a more expensive ship that, while certainly better than the A-Wing is now, still is going to leave something to be desired. I think it will definitely be fun playing around with them, though.

Post-wave 4, it looks as though the baseline optimal A-wing is just GSP w/ Predator + Cluster Missiles. Nasty little package. You wouldn't want to run four of them, of course.

The squadron I'm currently refining involves three A-wings and an HWK. Two of the A-wings carry missiles and chill with the HWK prior to engaging. The third carries PtL or another evasion-oriented upgrade, and runs around as distraction/interference - it's main job is to stay alive.

I am bitter: a very lackluster imperial aces finally arrives the same time Rebel aces is announced with a point reduction and double EPT option and really good upgrades for Bwings which are already crazy good/powerful/popular. The defender is fully spoiled and the most exciting thing posters have to talk about is the EPTs that come with it.

I have big hopes for the Phantom and some really interesting choices to make with my interceptors now but overall I'm just underwhelmed with the options given to a the faction that already was short on competitive options.

I'm more excited about wingman's implications for shuttles than the Defender. I hope I'm wrong on that, that would be very sad indeed. I'll keep flying my interceptors, ties, firesprays and shuttles... A more expensive, less manuverable interceptor with a chance to spend more on a cannon and missile upgrade just isn't exciting.

For the glory of the Empire!

Not really.

He is worth 27ish points on 4 wounds. Statistically 3 attack dice on 3/4 defence dice should result in 0.9-1.2 damage average per attack. 3-4 ships focus firing on Jake should kill him in 1 round.

Bwings are 22 points with 8 wounds. Statistically 3 attack dice on 1/2 defence dice should result in 1.5-1.9 damage average per attack. 3-4 ships focus firing on a B-wing could kill it in 1 round but its more of an outlier chance.

Xwings are 21 with 5 wounds. Statistically 3 attack dice on 3/4 defence dice should result in 1.2 - 1.6 damage average per attack. 3-4 ships focus firing on a X-wing will kill it in 1 round but its worth less than Jake.

Logical move is to kill Jake since gets progressively harder to kill him once you start losing ships compared with the other two ship classes.

I see you're ignoring the point I'm making that you turned to fight Jake leaving my other ships with at least one or more turns where they don't have to worry about fire. I'm not trying to argue he's not squishy (still tougher than his contemporary interceptors though), Whatevs though, it's clear that my point isn't getting through to you.

I see you're ignoring the point I'm making that you turned to fight Jake leaving my other ships with at least one or more turns where they don't have to worry about fire. I'm not trying to argue he's not squishy (still tougher than his contemporary interceptors though), Whatevs though, it's clear that my point isn't getting through to you.

I'm not ignoring your point. I'm saying that even if you get the free shots with your B's and X's the logical course of action is to kill Jake because of the math simply because its harder to kill something with 3 defence AND evade once you start losing ships. AND he is worth the most points in that line up. Its you who are ignoring my point.

If it were just a GSP then yes you would have a point that it may not be worth it to chase him down. Its a marginal point but its still a point. The fact that it IS Jake and he IS worth the most points in that line up makes it a no brainer.

Ok, Hypothetically speaking now that you turned and killed Jake then what? You now have to come about to fight my other ships. This about opportunity cost. Which in this case is both time and damage. The A-Wing is not significantly squishier than the X-Wing and with focus+evade, have fun. I'd love to see that happen in a match. Better than having Biggs around honestly.

Ok, Hypothetically speaking now that you turned and killed Jake then what? You now have to come about to fight my other ships. This about opportunity cost. Which in this case is both time and damage. The A-Wing is not significantly squishier than the X-Wing and with focus+evade, have fun. I'd love to see that happen in a match. Better than having Biggs around honestly.

Yeah. As I said its 100% due to his points value. I'd probably leave a GSP alone in favour of the Xwing but those extra points are tasty. I'd only go after Xwings first if the point differential is like 1-2 points.

I am bitter: a very lackluster imperial aces finally arrives the same time Rebel aces is announced with a point reduction and double EPT option and really good upgrades for Bwings which are already crazy good/powerful/popular. The defender is fully spoiled and the most exciting thing posters have to talk about is the EPTs that come with it.

I have big hopes for the Phantom and some really interesting choices to make with my interceptors now but overall I'm just underwhelmed with the options given to a the faction that already was short on competitive options.

I'm more excited about wingman's implications for shuttles than the Defender. I hope I'm wrong on that, that would be very sad indeed. I'll keep flying my interceptors, ties, firesprays and shuttles... A more expensive, less manuverable interceptor with a chance to spend more on a cannon and missile upgrade just isn't exciting.

For the glory of the Empire!

I want some of that glory as well RW. i havent gone over the spoiled cards with a fine toothed comb yet but already i am thinking the 'competitive' options for the empire will be limited and maybe even overcosted. Meanwhile the B-Wings get stronger, as do X-Wings with their new pilots/astromechs and even the Y-Wings get help (which was needed).

perhaps the empire will revamp its support ships for the firespray and come up with a new squad that wins as much as the imperial swarms but im not seeing it just yet.

I'm sorry guys, but I have to call total BS here.

If the E-wing had Rexler's ability, we'd all be going ballistic right now over how broken the Rebels are because of YET ANOTHER awesome new ability. Seriously - stop and ask yourself, if this were on an E-wing with exactly the same offense, would you be saying "Well, yeah, it might be almost good, but since it needs a focus to work so it's really limited."

Pfft. Give me a break, because that doesn't even pass the smell test.

Edit: And just to be clear here, I still think the Imp Aces were underwhelming, I do think the new Rebels are universally awesome, the Defender certainly has a pretty bad dial, and Wave 4 is going to give plenty enough new options to the Rebels so the "Wave 4 will make it all awesome for the Imps" is a silly thing... But come on - if you can't acknowledge Rexler as good, you're so stuck in your own predetermined state of things that you're seriously losing perspective here.

is it just me, or is one reason for the limited options for the Imps is, that new options are dismissed out of hand, because they don't fit the existing options?

As fun as the new Elite Talents will be on A-wings, I'm still much more interested in U-turn Tycho (Daredevil + Push the Limit).

I fail to see how Outmaneuver and Predator are more fitting for the Interceptor pack than for the Defender, Phantom, or E-wing. Now we just need to see the last elite talent, Decoy, to continue this weird ranting about Imperials.

There should be a rule like: "If Tycho has all stress markers you own, you lose the game"

I'm sorry guys, but I have to call total BS here.

If the E-wing had Rexler's ability, we'd all be going ballistic right now over how broken the Rebels are because of YET ANOTHER awesome new ability. Seriously - stop and ask yourself, if this were on an E-wing with exactly the same offense, would you be saying "Well, yeah, it might be almost good, but since it needs a focus to work so it's really limited."

Pfft. Give me a break, because that doesn't even pass the smell test.

probably true, but there's no empire ship that hands out focus tokens like candy. For Rexler's ability to activate, the focus can't be used to modify his attack rolls; if it is in a republic craft, there's at least Kyle to pass the focus to have double focus.

I'm sorry guys, but I have to call total BS here.

If the E-wing had Rexler's ability, we'd all be going ballistic right now over how broken the Rebels are because of YET ANOTHER awesome new ability. Seriously - stop and ask yourself, if this were on an E-wing with exactly the same offense, would you be saying "Well, yeah, it might be almost good, but since it needs a focus to work so it's really limited."

Pfft. Give me a break, because that doesn't even pass the smell test.

probably true, but there's no empire ship that hands out focus tokens like candy. For Rexler's ability to activate, the focus can't be used to modify his attack rolls; if it is in a republic craft, there's at least Kyle to pass the focus to have double focus.

Except for the fact that TL is a bit better than focus at generating hits. TL to get the damage. Focus to flip it up. I don't see the problem. It feels like people are expecting a pilot with the ability:-

"Reroll all misses. If the attack hits the target EXPLODES!!!! You may douse the target model in kerosene and set it on FIRE! GLORY TO THE EMPRAH!"

is it just me, or is one reason for the limited options for the Imps is, that new options are dismissed out of hand, because they don't fit the existing options?

Yup. People say, "This will not help my TIE swarm," so they dismiss it as competitive.

is it just me, or is one reason for the limited options for the Imps is, that new options are dismissed out of hand, because they don't fit the existing options?

Well, yes and no. The main problem with most Imperial lists that currently exist is that they are high-risk high-reward lists. An interceptor list can tear through the opposition if you get lucky, but if your opponent gets lucky you lose an interceptor in one shot. Even to an A-wing. Advanced's are overcosted for what they bring to the field, and bombers suffer from the many limitations that plague ordnance (ordnance being ludicrously expensive, one-shot, needing a target lock to even fire and the fighter rarely having any tokens to boost said ordnance) and don't offer that much beyond their ordnance. Much like an interceptor list, if you get lucky with your rolls you'll destroy most of your opposition. If you don't, that's a dozen or so points down the drain.

Shuttles are more survivable on paper, but in practice they're dead once fighters get out of their arcs as they have little chance of getting those fighters back into their arcs unless the opponent makes mistakes.

Now, this "high-risk, high-reward" style gameplay is fine for casual play, but for tournaments people want to win consistently. Which means you need a squadron that finds the middle ground between the two: Little less risk, little less reward, but a better chance at surviving overall. Rebels, with their survivable ships, excel at this. Whereas the Imperials have up till now seen only one reliable answer: Bring more TIE's.

The Imperial Aces might see this meta change when it hits the tournament scene though. Interceptors getting +2 THP makes it extremely hard to take them out in one shot, aside from a statistically implausible crit-run.

Or a B-wing with a Recon Specialist, Deadeye and Advanced Proton Torpedoes. But Rebel Aces is still a bit away.

is it just me, or is one reason for the limited options for the Imps is, that new options are dismissed out of hand, because they don't fit the existing options?

Well, yes and no. The main problem with most Imperial lists that currently exist is that they are high-risk high-reward lists. An interceptor list can tear through the opposition if you get lucky, but if your opponent gets lucky you lose an interceptor in one shot. Even to an A-wing. Advanced's are overcosted for what they bring to the field, and bombers suffer from the many limitations that plague ordnance (ordnance being ludicrously expensive, one-shot, needing a target lock to even fire and the fighter rarely having any tokens to boost said ordnance) and don't offer that much beyond their ordnance. Much like an interceptor list, if you get lucky with your rolls you'll destroy most of your opposition. If you don't, that's a dozen or so points down the drain.

Shuttles are more survivable on paper, but in practice they're dead once fighters get out of their arcs as they have little chance of getting those fighters back into their arcs unless the opponent makes mistakes.

Now, this "high-risk, high-reward" style gameplay is fine for casual play, but for tournaments people want to win consistently. Which means you need a squadron that finds the middle ground between the two: Little less risk, little less reward, but a better chance at surviving overall. Rebels, with their survivable ships, excel at this. Whereas the Imperials have up till now seen only one reliable answer: Bring more TIE's.

The Imperial Aces might see this meta change when it hits the tournament scene though. Interceptors getting +2 THP makes it extremely hard to take them out in one shot, aside from a statistically implausible crit-run.

Or a B-wing with a Recon Specialist, Deadeye and Advanced Proton Torpedoes. But Rebel Aces is still a bit away.

Bwings cant carry crew members. But apparently they can carry the rebellion.

Its really really funny how people in this thread think that the rebels are better because they have better ships. They really only have one good ship. The B-wing. And that B-wing has to pretty much carry the weight of the entire list. The YT without Chewbacca is overcosted for what it actually does. The X-wing is just a vector for its pilot specific tricks, of which Biggs is currently the strongest. The Y-wing is Tie Advanced level over costed and the A-wing is simply not viable without the Rebel Aces box.

Why is the B wing so strong? 8 hull points and a system slot and a 2 K-turn for 22 points. A bargain.

Contrast it with the empire where nearly all their ships are viable. Yes even naked Bombers are better than naked Y-wings.

The ONLY problem with the empire is that Howlrunner is just so bonkers strong. That one model alone puts swarm-esque strategies heads and shoulders over nearly everything else. You stick Howlrunner in a list with at least 4 other ships and it becomes ridiculous.

This is the only problem that the empire has in a nutshell. Howlrunner is too good and until they print something for the empire that is AS good if not better, EVERYTHING will look lackluster.

Bwings cant carry crew members.

They will, once Rebel Aces swings around, next year or so.

Bwings cant carry crew members.

Come Rebel Aces, they can. Their title upgrade lets them take crew.

is it just me, or is one reason for the limited options for the Imps is, that new options are dismissed out of hand, because they don't fit the existing options?

Well, yes and no. The main problem with most Imperial lists that currently exist is that they are high-risk high-reward lists. An interceptor list can tear through the opposition if you get lucky, but if your opponent gets lucky you lose an interceptor in one shot. Even to an A-wing. Advanced's are overcosted for what they bring to the field, and bombers suffer from the many limitations that plague ordnance (ordnance being ludicrously expensive, one-shot, needing a target lock to even fire and the fighter rarely having any tokens to boost said ordnance) and don't offer that much beyond their ordnance. Much like an interceptor list, if you get lucky with your rolls you'll destroy most of your opposition. If you don't, that's a dozen or so points down the drain.

Shuttles are more survivable on paper, but in practice they're dead once fighters get out of their arcs as they have little chance of getting those fighters back into their arcs unless the opponent makes mistakes.

Now, this "high-risk, high-reward" style gameplay is fine for casual play, but for tournaments people want to win consistently. Which means you need a squadron that finds the middle ground between the two: Little less risk, little less reward, but a better chance at surviving overall. Rebels, with their survivable ships, excel at this. Whereas the Imperials have up till now seen only one reliable answer: Bring more TIE's.

The Imperial Aces might see this meta change when it hits the tournament scene though. Interceptors getting +2 THP makes it extremely hard to take them out in one shot, aside from a statistically implausible crit-run.

Or a B-wing with a Recon Specialist, Deadeye and Advanced Proton Torpedoes. But Rebel Aces is still a bit away.

That pretty sums it up.

But ... squints with 2 + HP means + 7 points ... thats at least 29 points w/o EPT ... I don't think this will change meta.

The title should grant -2 points on the SECOND modification to come to 30 points with PTL.

2 of those and you still had 40 points left ... for Kath + Expert Handling, for example.

I think THIS squad would be quite robust and competitive ...