I guess it is down to perspective, I guess. I look at the winning squads of the Store Championships, and I'm seeing variety. Such amazing variety. Some see a single Firespray, and assume the squad is the same, ignoring the very intrinsic differences between say, Krassix vs a Bounty Hunter. A big issue I have with the analysis is that it is too focused on the individual ships, not squads.

And I will repeat. Every single ship has representation in a winning squad. EVERY. SINGLE. SHIP. That is a balance that, imo, is practically unheard of in a game like this. Sure, not every pilot has representation. Not everything FFG is going to be "competitive", they are only human.

I honestly don't know where the disappointment comes from for the Imperial Aces. They get a PS 6 generic. They get some really good pilots. People dismiss Lorrir because they are too addicted to Push the Limit. Jax will cause issues when he gets into the mix. Cowell is a good cost, along with the ability to get out of tough spots with his K-turn. Kanos isn't great out the gate, but I think he is fun enough. Hull is cheaper than Shields. Opportunist will be fun, imo. The reaction to Farlander is so out of place compared to his actual impact. Yes, he is good, but not the game wrecker most are claiming. The A-wing gets some much needed boosts, since their primary role, as the cheap filler, will be replaced with the Z-95. Yes, the Interceptors are still fragile. And the Interceptors will always be that way. They are the Imperial glass cannon.

I guess it is down to perspective, I guess. I look at the winning squads of the Store Championships, and I'm seeing variety. Such amazing variety. Some see a single Firespray, and assume the squad is the same, ignoring the very intrinsic differences between say, Krassix vs a Bounty Hunter. A big issue I have with the analysis is that it is too focused on the individual ships, not squads.

I'm mentally bookmarking that. Do you have any specific suggestions? There are so many different permutations of squads that it becomes hard to categorize all of them meaningfully. I'm open to suggestions.

imo rebels are winning this war. B-Wings and new x-wing pilots on the way. rebel aces gives rebels many more options and strengthens them further. just look at the new astromechs!

i dont think imperial aces will address this imbalance.

c'mon FF where is the love for the empire!

I think Imperial aces does a fantasitc job. See Interceptors can get the RGI title while A-Wings get test pilot. RGI gives the Interceptor the ability to have two upgrades both can be used at the same time. Test pilot grants two ep abilities but that doesnt mean they can both be used at the same time.

I find using targeting computer and stealth device a better combo than having two ept with only one that can be used at a time. The Interceptor combo is even more lethal with ptl and focus extra more so if used on the Baron.

Even though you cant use it in ternies the Prototype TIE Interceptor you can use in mission 7 is nothing to dismiss. You can end up with 7 attack dice with its primary attack. Or you can have a Prototype TIE Phantom that can do 3 vollies in one turn.

RGT upgrade adds to the problem of the Interceptor which is that it's pricey for a 3H ship.

Proto upgrade let's you have Vet Instincts, Determination, Adrenaline Rush...etc + PTL. I would trade Proto upgrade on the Interceptor over RGT any day of the week and twice on Saturdays.

I would like to point out.....everyone keeps going into hypotheticals saying the Proto Pilot, the A wing title, the refit, *insert any rebel aces card* is this, is that, is so great blah blah

Rebel Aces isnt out yet, we havent seen most of the Wave 4 Empire cards, we dont know what FFG has between now and the release of Rebel Aces

Just let it play out, if you think one side is getting to good, come up with new ways to combat it, take the box, slap some C4 on all the sides and blow that popsicle stand to kingdom come

*steps off soapbox*

I dont understand why any one would think the games unblanced

dispite what some might say the interceptor is one of the best ship IMHO my mate flys Soontir and Turr all the time and unless i can ion them he always beats me. he tells me when you learn to fly the interceptor you will love them. once he got 2 hits on Soontir first round and not another for the rest of the game

he won store champs with

Soontir with PTL

Turr With VI

Howlrunner

Academy X 2

98 pt

he keeps the ints together if he can

and the tie in there own mini swam

I think the thing that people tend to forget is that most of the EPTs are mutually exclusive needing either an action or a stress token to function and/or only matter under specific conditions while upgrades tend to be more synergistic and consistent. Yes on a cost basis they are better but its fairly irrelevant if you can only get the benefit of one at a time or only some of the time.

I would like to point out.....everyone keeps going into hypotheticals saying the Proto Pilot, the A wing title, the refit, *insert any rebel aces card* is this, is that, is so great blah blah

Rebel Aces isnt out yet, we havent seen most of the Wave 4 Empire cards, we dont know what FFG has between now and the release of Rebel Aces

Yes, I'm sure the 2 point discount is going to turn out to be a completely disappointing disaster for the poor, abused Rebel players.

Seriously? I mean, I'm all for the typical "Oh, we won't know until it's out", but when you include a flat-out cost break in your list, you're not even trying. Put some effort into trying to come up with things that MIGHT be disappointing, at least.

As for your example above with the three green A-Wings, you dont come close to getting a free wingman. And as far as the scenario goes with those Green you do know you can do the Same thing with acouple Sabres and they will be a skill level higher.

Every one of those Greens gets Wingman for free, thanks to Chaardan Refit.

For example if you are using a A-Wing that is meant to have boosted damage output you will be limited for when it takes effect. If you got PTL and expose you will only be able to use one or the other. If you got PTL and oppertunist the later will only work if you are not stressed and the enemy has no focus and or evade tokens. You could use oppertunist and expose but you can shoot yourself in the foot pretty fast esp since you are less mobile and have less evade dice.

Nothing stops PtL and Expose from working together. PtL and Opportunist do play nicely together if you have some squad synergy to remove stress, like say Wingman, but I probably wouldn't combo them (who needs to?) PtL and Expert Handling gives the A-wing the full maneuver potential of the Interceptor, although admittedly at the (bad) cost of double stress. If only there were a way to clear both... Ooh, wait - that's right, Wingman. Again.

Nothing says the two EPTs have to be directly synergistic, either. There are any number of cases where standalone or support EPTs now go well in a second slot when you couldn't justify them alone. Tycho works so well with PtL there was never really any other choice for him. Now, add Swarm Tactics, or Deadeye, or Veteran Instincts. Squad Leader+PtL will be pretty nifty on him too. Daredevil's pretty fun - Tycho's one limit was no K-turns once he was stress-loaded, now you can double-turn when you need to, and still end up with a focus to boot. The most expensive of those impressive options makes Tycho cost +3 from the cheapest possible double-mod Interceptor, and only one more than the decent choice (Shield/Hull).

If the best double-EPT you can come up with is Expose <giggle> you need to spend a little more time considering the options.

Your are assuming I will never be in a postion to use target lock. Its much easier for an Interceptor to get into a good firing postion than say an A-Wing. Targeting computer was just one example I could use stealth and shields, or hull upgrade and shields, or hull and stealth or any orther combo that has TC.

As for your example above with the three green A-Wings, you dont come close to getting a free wingman. And as far as the scenario goes with those Green you do know you can do the Same thing with acouple Sabres and they will be a skill level higher.

No I can't, really. Because a Sabre can't equip two EPT's, so they can't combine PTL with Wingman. They also can't use Chardaan refit for -2 point cost, which would make the 2 point wingman essentially free. Chardaan Refit + Wingman + Push the Limit is an option only available to A-wings. And it's a **** fine one.

It may seem this way at the moment, but W4 will help us along, and we have yet to see any potential new pilots added in an Imp large ship set (akin to the X with the transport).

Hang in there, and remember:

You know, just for fun and future reference I'm making a comparison chart for the two factions for every release out now and announced:

Empire Rebels

Small-base ships: 6 7

Large-base ships: 2 1

Epic-scale ships: 0 2

pilots: 39 40

Unique crew: 2 6

Unique EPT's: 0 0

Unique titles: 3 5

Unique mods: 0 1

Astromechs: 0 6

Bomb capable ships: 2 0

Turret capable ships: 0 2

Unique actions: 1 4

If you include bomb/mine capacity as a distinctive feature, then you should also include 'turret-capable ships'.

Also, if you consider 'cloaking' as a unique feature, then actions from capital ships, should also be considered, especially the 'Jam' action, which ATM it is unique to a single ship, the transport.

For example if you are using a A-Wing that is meant to have boosted damage output you will be limited for when it takes effect. If you got PTL and expose you will only be able to use one or the other. If you got PTL and oppertunist the later will only work if you are not stressed and the enemy has no focus and or evade tokens. You could use oppertunist and expose but you can shoot yourself in the foot pretty fast esp since you are less mobile and have less evade dice.

Nothing stops PtL and Expose from working together. PtL and Opportunist do play nicely together if you have some squad synergy to remove stress, like say Wingman, but I probably wouldn't combo them (who needs to?) PtL and Expert Handling gives the A-wing the full maneuver potential of the Interceptor, although admittedly at the (bad) cost of double stress. If only there were a way to clear both... Ooh, wait - that's right, Wingman. Again.

Nothing says the two EPTs have to be directly synergistic, either. There are any number of cases where standalone or support EPTs now go well in a second slot when you couldn't justify them alone. Tycho works so well with PtL there was never really any other choice for him. Now, add Swarm Tactics, or Deadeye, or Veteran Instincts. Squad Leader+PtL will be pretty nifty on him too. Daredevil's pretty fun - Tycho's one limit was no K-turns once he was stress-loaded, now you can double-turn when you need to, and still end up with a focus to boot. The most expensive of those impressive options makes Tycho cost +3 from the cheapest possible double-mod Interceptor, and only one more than the decent choice (Shield/Hull).

If the best double-EPT you can come up with is Expose <giggle> you need to spend a little more time considering the options.

I think an extra EPT is definitely an advantage over the RG title especially for now (hopefully there will be some nice cheap upgrades coming), and I think that the new options will make the Awing more viable and more fun to fly.

You've got some nice combos there, many of which shore up the Awing's current weaknesses, but I think it's worth considering the opportunity costs of a lot of them even with refit and prototype, Opportunist and PTL shore up, to some extent, the Awing's biggest problem in red dice, but comes in at 24 points on a Green. That's a Dagger. It's also one point cheaper than a more maneuverable RG with PTL (barrel role), and I'd prefer the RG for PS and extra attack die that works all the time and doesn't induce stress.

So, if you then add a wingman to these combos you're talking about another Awing because no other ship can keep up. 22 more points for a green PTL wingman. That puts you at 46 points for two relatively fragile ships that have two base attack dice, PS 3, and a heavy reliance on each other for full and effective use.

We can go over other options, but the point is that while these are great options they are going to require effort and cost beyond the points to make work, whether that means the rebels won't be able to take other highly competitive ships or will need to build more complexity in their list to make things work.

Definitely nice options to have, but they aren't no brainers nor do they take the shine off of aces for me.

I dont understand why any one would think the games unblanced

dispite what some might say the interceptor is one of the best ship IMHO my mate flys Soontir and Turr all the time and unless i can ion them he always beats me. he tells me when you learn to fly the interceptor you will love them. once he got 2 hits on Soontir first round and not another for the rest of the game

he won store champs with

Soontir with PTL

Turr With VI

Howlrunner

Academy X 2

98 pt

he keeps the ints together if he can

and the tie in there own mini swam

This is the list I fly, I like it because it can give any list a run for its money.

If you include bomb/mine capacity as a distinctive feature, then you should also include 'turret-capable ships'.

Also, if you consider 'cloaking' as a unique feature, then actions from capital ships, should also be considered, especially the 'Jam' action, which ATM it is unique to a single ship, the transport.

Oh yeah, forgot about those. Added.

What kind of mods would even out the scales. Off the top of my head:

Ablative Armor

2 points

Discard this mod to ignore one attack after defence dice results. (Does not cause a miss result)

Reflective armor

2 points

If there are no other friendly ship within range 1 gain 1 agility.

I highly doubt you will see mods that add upgrade slots, any price more than 1 is too many points, but if it's 0 a cannon on a tie bomber would be sick.

At the end of the day ... The extra EPT will be on an A-wing which is probably the weakest ship in the Rebel stable atm. Chardan refit will get them to be priced appropriately but shoving 2 EPTs on it will start to inflate the cost again.

PTL is probably the strongest EPT for a dual EPT set up but it only really works with (in no particular order) Adrenaline Rush, DTF, VI, Deadeye, Expose, Marksmanship, Swarm tactics, Squad leader. All of those are nice but hardly overpowering on a ship with 2 red dice base.

Just for a direct comparison:

a Sabre with PTL and Hull upgrade costs 27 points

a GSP with dual EPT (PTL + X) with a Chardan refit costs 21-24 points.

Depending on how much you value the barrel roll and the +1 red dice I would say they are close to comparable with the edge to the interceptor simply because 3 'hard' red dice is better in the current meta. A-wings would actually be worse against the bane of the Interceptors existence (i.e Chewbacca-Falcon) because of that 1 less red dice. Unless you bulk up on missiles but that bulks up their cost to 23-26+ missile costs.

So yes. It takes a specialist release just to put A-wings on par with Interceptors. Theres no real contest with normal TIES because a BSP with PTL and Hull upgrade is only 20 points.

EDIT: Also! a big reason why a 2 attack rebel ship will never matter even en masse is because the rebels do not have access to a force multiplier as powerful as Howlrunner.

Speaking as someone who flys both sides, and actually I think I fly imp's more then reb's despite my avatar... Most of the people I play against want to fly reb, so I fly imp.

Lack of variety is really part of the faction identity of the Empire. Just like hoard armies are part of the faction identity of the Imperial Guard or Tyranids in 40k.

The Empire was all about masses of cheap semi-suicide forces, with a few elite units as backup. The Rebel Alliance was about a mix-match of various ships because that's what they had to work with.

That doesn't mean I don't think the Empire needs more variety in their list building. But was pointed out about the Store Champ post, there are a lot of different Imperial lists out there doing well. So it's not like 90% of the lists are Tie Swarms.

I think the biggest disappointment on the Imperial side, is the aces pack, which is good but didn't quite fix everything people saw as issues with Interceptors. Then to make matters worse, the Rebel Aces comes out and seems to make A-Wings more viable then Imp Aces did for Interceptors.

Eveytime in a wargame, when one faction gets something new and shiny released, even if its months and months away, people always get on the forums and QQ about how this new thing coming out will totally break the game.

My army/fleet/warband already has the shaft. How come so and so faction gets the BEST THINGS EVER and I am stuck with garbage?

When (generic small upgrade/new power) comes out it will totally break the game!!! I won't ever be able to win against those other guys.

Well yeah, a year ago my faction was doing better than yours, but that's because people who play my faction tend to be more skilled players. Now that your faction is doing better because (meaningless statistical data) it's because you guys are broken!!

I have a friend who has been kicking the **** out of my b-wing list with all interceptors lately. And it's funny to me, because I don't really care. It's a game of plastic toy space ships from a movie you watched when you were a kid. That's all x-wing is. Between work, studies, weight lifting, and having a regular social life, x-wing goes on the bottom of my priority pool. And then I get on here and I constantly see these threads.

OMG FF b-wings are borken, interceptors are underpowered, plz nerf bwings and give interceptors PTL for free. Also remove falcons from the game because I can't beat them. Empire can never win. I bought 6 tie bombers and 4 lambas and never field all of them at once. Why can't you balance my faction? Rebels getting 2 ept on a 4 ship list with 8 attack dice is broken. But imperials getting 4 ps6 ships with 12 attack dice sucks and cant win.

I wouldn't normally post in one of these threads, but I am seeing them with alarming frequency and it's killing me.

...

I wouldn't normally post in one of these threads, but I am seeing them with alarming frequency and it's killing me.

but these threads are fun in itself, I call it forum metatainment.

just to be on the on-topic safe side:

a) most games with a certain complexity and continuous extensions encounter durations of imbalance, until they are rectified later. nothing new - nothing particular outrageous

b) this game currently has an overall limited pool which allows players to field lists from both sides without raiding financial reserves (at least compared to other games) - avoid balance issues -> play both sides

c) even with certain limitations there are competitive lists from both sides

d) I personally wouldn't allow mirror matches - that's just wrong (just a subjective issue)

e) of course the rebels should have an advantage - they are the good guys

...

I wouldn't normally post in one of these threads, but I am seeing them with alarming frequency and it's killing me.

but these threads are fun in itself, I call it forum metatainment.

just to be on the on-topic safe side:

a) most games with a certain complexity and continuous extensions encounter durations of imbalance, until they are rectified later. nothing new - nothing particular outrageous

b) this game currently has an overall limited pool which allows players to field lists from both sides without raiding financial reserves (at least compared to other games) - avoid balance issues -> play both sides

c) even with certain limitations there are competitive lists from both sides

d) I personally wouldn't allow mirror matches - that's just wrong (just a subjective issue)

e) of course the rebels should have an advantage - they are the good guys

If you were Luke Skywalker and you saw Luke Skywalker flying around...

Well in that case it should be Luke vs Luuke. If you had 3 players it could be Luke, vs Luuke, vs Luuke...

If you were Luke Skywalker and you saw Luke Skywalker flying around...

Well in that case it should be Luke vs Luuke. If you had 3 players it could be Luke, vs Luuke, vs Luuke...

that reminds me,

there should be generic not ship attached upgrades like:

"Working Cloning Facility" - unique chars can be reused

Shall we add Predator and Outmaneuver to the "Not many good combos for dual EPT" discussion?