I hope the A-Wing uses Predator because its a crap EPT. If you want rerolls use a targeting computer. Even better just use expose or oppurtunist you get a +1 attack die.

Suppose an X-wing with an EPT is attacking a TIE Fighter at Range 2. Suppose the TIE Fighter doesn't get an action or has already spent its token on a previous attack. Also suppose the TIE Fighter has PS3 or better.

• With no upgrade action at all, the X-wing does an average of 0.67 damage per attack.
• Using Expose, it does 1.06 damage, and takes a penalty to Agility.
• With a focus token, it does 1.22 damage.
• With Predator and a focus token, it does 1.59 damage.
• Using Push the Limit to get target lock and focus does 1.70 damage, and it gains a stress token.
• Activating Opportunist with focus does 1.91 damage, and it gains a stress token.

Expose is not a good upgrade, because in this kind of situation you pay 4 points and lose a point of Agility in order to do less damage than focus. Predator gives you a nice bump to your damage good upgrade; it's cheaper than Opportunist, and unlike Opportunist and Push the Limit, it doesn't result in stress. Opportunist is the best buff of all, but it's situational.

[EDIT: Also worth pointing out that with no action, Predator results in 0.99 average damage--not as much as an action, but far better than no modification at all (and almost as good as Expose).]

***

TL;DR: Predator is not a crap EPT.

Good analysis. Thanks for the numbers. A point that I think gets missed in this discussion is that Target Lock is something you can do on a previous turn and/or when you aren't able to shoot at anything at all and aren't being shot at. That's still limited since it is still situational, but I thought worth pointing out since a lot of the scenarios people describe are those where they are taking a target lock on the same turn they are using it.

While true Predator offers a free accuracy boost and works well with focus, giving more action adaptability. I mean Krassis is considered amazing for his ability to reroll one dice on secondaries. Predator is far better.

I don't know that I've heard people describe his ability as "amazing" but I certainly understand that predator is better, even for three points. It's pretty clear that if you could put predator on a bounty hunter, Krassis would become obsolete.

I've said it many times, and while I think it's a solid card, I'll be surprised if it gets used as much as people think. The options for its use, where PTL isn't optimal, are somewhat rare.

I think X-wing pilots would love this, but that's limited to Wedge and Luke for now, and will cost an extra point on Reds, Garven, and Biggs in the future (thanks to the droid). The Falcon and Firespray pilots could also make good use of it, but they have an option for Gunner, which is a different spot, so if they are looking to use that elite spot for something else, gunner might be a better fit. I just don't see it replacing PTL on interceptors, and I'm not sure it's a great fit for the two dice A-Wing except as a second EPT, but then that gets to be an expensive ship.

Why will you see Predator? Because of the Swarm. Do you know how badly ships with Predator will rip up Academy, Rookiee, and Blue squadron Pilots? Push the Limit is still a key option for a few ships, sure. But Predator or Outmaneuver will be better options on others. So, Push the Limit's dominance is at the end. I

​You don't think it will help A-wings? Both dice coming up hits is pretty uncommon. Have you seen Howlrunner's effectiveness? Beyond that, yes Push is amazing, but so is not stressing all the time. It'll do well on YT's, Firesprays, X-wings, Hawks, Y-wings, and B-wings with EPT's. Hell, it'll give Ibby a free TL when she's stressed.

Howlrunner is a bit different, no? She's a PS 8 Tie that allows a buff to anyone within her range, which is often a lot of ships. It's not the fact that she's allowing rerolls on ships with two attack dice, it's that there are so many of them and they are cheap. Howlrunner herself is far more cost efficient, her cost over a base tie being only 6 points, exactly two predator upgrades without considering her PS.

I do question whether it will be an incredibly effective A-Wing upgrade. A nice option, yes, but I'm still likely to take PTL first, and while I could add predator onto that, as I said, that gets to be expansive and in the price range of other ships, arguably the most cost effective in the Rebel's arsenal. I will be interested to see if equipping predator by itself on a Green A-Wing will be cost effective or if it will miss PTL.

As for the other ships. I didn't go through each ship, but the only one I didn't already mention that I agree with is a B-wing with an EPT, which again, is a small number. It's not a question to me of whether it will help a ship, but whether it's worth the cost. I really don't think it's worth it on either an HWK or Y-Wing (especially because it will again cost the Y-Wing an extra point).

Why will you see Predator? Because of the Swarm. Do you know how badly ships with Predator will rip up Academy, Rookiee, and Blue squadron Pilots? Push the Limit is still a key option for a few ships, sure. But Predator or Outmaneuver will be better options on others. So, Push the Limit's dominance is at the end. I

It may dissuade the Academy swarm, but 7 ship swarms will still be here....It will be interesting to see if it is powerful and widespread enough to eliminate the use of Rookies and Blues.

Sure it won't get rid of the swarm, but it will certainly help against them.

Howlrunner is a target. 6 Predators costs the same as Howlrunner and leaves a less clear first target.(Not that his helps a 7 tie swarm, or even a 6, but the card is powerful. It's best use is probably going to be on A-wings that want to us' their 3 speed and hard turns every turn. They'll gain a lot of mobility by getting rid of push.

Your better off with the RGT upgrade. You become a dangerous jouster with targeting computer + ptl. You will not be seeing much with a -2 discount.

Uhm... No, you really don't. If you choose to use that Targeting Computer, your defense is minimizedand you're going to be a floating pile of debris before you can say "Wait, WTF just happened??"

Targeting Computer is great for those times when a PtL Interceptor ends up out of any enemy arcs, and hasn't got anything to do with the spare action... but not much more than that.

You have to take risks when dealing with some enemies, A-Wings and X-Wings should worry about a RGI with targeting computer if they are coming at them.

Does Kath like Predator more than merc copilot?

Does Kath like Predator more than merc copilot?

She can use both!

Shall we add Predator and Outmaneuver to the "Not many good combos for dual EPT" discussion?

I hope the A-Wing uses Predator because its a crap EPT. If you want rerolls use a targeting computer. Even better just use expose or oppurtunist you get a +1 attack die.

Getting a reroll that don't need you to use an action, even if it's just one dice, is very good, especially when there is no constraint whatsoever like get one stress token, your opponent need to have no evade or focus token, need to shoot from out of sight... it will be useful every time you attack and free you up an action that you don't need to spend on target lock. With 2 dice, odds are you'll do just fine by rerolling 1 dice per attack. I prefer to attack with 2-3 dice combine with 1 reroll+focus than 2-3 dice with rerolls.

Yes but I will have 4-5 for defensive dice so that odds of a ship with two attack and a reroll hitting that ship are not that good.

Shall we add Predator and Outmaneuver to the "Not many good combos for dual EPT" discussion?

I hope the A-Wing uses Predator because its a crap EPT. If you want rerolls use a targeting computer. Even better just use expose or oppurtunist you get a +1 attack die.

Getting a reroll that don't need you to use an action, even if it's just one dice, is very good, especially when there is no constraint whatsoever like get one stress token, your opponent need to have no evade or focus token, need to shoot from out of sight... it will be useful every time you attack and free you up an action that you don't need to spend on target lock. With 2 dice, odds are you'll do just fine by rerolling 1 dice per attack. I prefer to attack with 2-3 dice combine with 1 reroll+focus than 2-3 dice with rerolls.

This.

To add to Red Castle's point. A TIE Fighter rolls 2 dice. With focus, each die has a 75% chance to hit. This gives you a 56% chance to get two hits, which isn't shabby (.75*.75=.5625). Anything over 50% is pretty good in a dice game. Combine that with a single reroll. This increases one die to 94% (1.00-.75=.25 .25*.75=.1875 .75*.1875=.9375). This gives you a 70% chance to roll 2 hits (.9375*.75=.703125).

The trend is the same with more dice, or the additional reroll from Predator. Each time you add a die, your likelihood for at least 2 hits doesn't change, 3 hits is still above 50%, and 4 dice is right about 40%, all because you had a focus AND a reroll.

Focus+Target lock is statistically better, but as Red Castle said, this method frees up an action. Push the Limit may still be favorable on Rebel Ships, but most empire ships don't have target lock as an action. Predator will significantly increase their hit averages.

You are still better off with ether a ability that adds a +1 to your damage dice and or a targeting computer. In the case of the EPT that grants a additonal die you end up with the same odds to hit you would have had if you went with the Predator except that additional die could end up adding to the total damage. So instead of getting two hits you got three if you are using A-Wing.

I hope the A-Wing uses Predator because its a crap EPT. If you want rerolls use a targeting computer. Even better just use expose or oppurtunist you get a +1 attack die.

Suppose an X-wing with an EPT is attacking a TIE Fighter at Range 2. Suppose the TIE Fighter doesn't get an action or has already spent its token on a previous attack. Also suppose the TIE Fighter has PS3 or better.

• With no upgrade action at all, the X-wing does an average of 0.67 damage per attack.
• Using Expose, it does 1.06 damage, and takes a penalty to Agility.
• With a focus token, it does 1.22 damage.
• With Predator and a focus token, it does 1.59 damage.
• Using Push the Limit to get target lock and focus does 1.70 damage, and it gains a stress token.
• Activating Opportunist with focus does 1.91 damage, and it gains a stress token.

Expose is not a good upgrade, because in this kind of situation you pay 4 points and lose a point of Agility in order to do less damage than focus. Predator gives you a nice bump to your damage good upgrade; it's cheaper than Opportunist, and unlike Opportunist and Push the Limit, it doesn't result in stress. Opportunist is the best buff of all, but it's situational.

[EDIT: Also worth pointing out that with no action, Predator results in 0.99 average damage--not as much as an action, but far better than no modification at all (and almost as good as Expose).]

***

TL;DR: Predator is not a crap EPT.

I don't agree with your math because I have not rolled dice with the averages you are showing. In my case I roll really good for defense but most the time I get blanks on a full attack. Not that I don't appericate your work...

It strikes me as highly likely that Predator was made with the upcoming Rebel Transport in mind. Because the Rebel Transport is going to come with this:

Needless to say, this card will spell utter doom for any PTL Interceptor within range. Imperial ships have no way of bleeding off stress the turn they get it, so any fighter with PTL is virtually guaranteed to have a stress token when the Transport's turn comes along. After 3 turns of combat, every Interceptor with PTL will be either gone or severely damaged. Alternatives needed to be made in order to keep Imperial ships -which have to this point been relying on PTL far too much- from falling out of the sky one by one.

Shall we add Predator and Outmaneuver to the "Not many good combos for dual EPT" discussion?

I hope the A-Wing uses Predator because its a crap EPT. If you want rerolls use a targeting computer. Even better just use expose or oppurtunist you get a +1 attack die.

Getting a reroll that don't need you to use an action, even if it's just one dice, is very good, especially when there is no constraint whatsoever like get one stress token, your opponent need to have no evade or focus token, need to shoot from out of sight... it will be useful every time you attack and free you up an action that you don't need to spend on target lock. With 2 dice, odds are you'll do just fine by rerolling 1 dice per attack. I prefer to attack with 2-3 dice combine with 1 reroll+focus than 2-3 dice with rerolls.

Yes but I will have 4-5 for defensive dice so that odds of a ship with two attack and a reroll hitting that ship are not that good.

Shall we add Predator and Outmaneuver to the "Not many good combos for dual EPT" discussion?

I hope the A-Wing uses Predator because its a crap EPT. If you want rerolls use a targeting computer. Even better just use expose or oppurtunist you get a +1 attack die.

Getting a reroll that don't need you to use an action, even if it's just one dice, is very good, especially when there is no constraint whatsoever like get one stress token, your opponent need to have no evade or focus token, need to shoot from out of sight... it will be useful every time you attack and free you up an action that you don't need to spend on target lock. With 2 dice, odds are you'll do just fine by rerolling 1 dice per attack. I prefer to attack with 2-3 dice combine with 1 reroll+focus than 2-3 dice with rerolls.

This.

To add to Red Castle's point. A TIE Fighter rolls 2 dice. With focus, each die has a 75% chance to hit. This gives you a 56% chance to get two hits, which isn't shabby (.75*.75=.5625). Anything over 50% is pretty good in a dice game. Combine that with a single reroll. This increases one die to 94% (1.00-.75=.25 .25*.75=.1875 .75*.1875=.9375). This gives you a 70% chance to roll 2 hits (.9375*.75=.703125).

The trend is the same with more dice, or the additional reroll from Predator. Each time you add a die, your likelihood for at least 2 hits doesn't change, 3 hits is still above 50%, and 4 dice is right about 40%, all because you had a focus AND a reroll.

Focus+Target lock is statistically better, but as Red Castle said, this method frees up an action. Push the Limit may still be favorable on Rebel Ships, but most empire ships don't have target lock as an action. Predator will significantly increase their hit averages.

You are still better off with ether a ability that adds a +1 to your damage dice and or a targeting computer. In the case of the EPT that grants a additonal die you end up with the same odds to hit you would have had if you went with the Predator except that additional die could end up adding to the total damage. So instead of getting two hits you got three if you are using A-Wing.

I hope the A-Wing uses Predator because its a crap EPT. If you want rerolls use a targeting computer. Even better just use expose or oppurtunist you get a +1 attack die.

Suppose an X-wing with an EPT is attacking a TIE Fighter at Range 2. Suppose the TIE Fighter doesn't get an action or has already spent its token on a previous attack. Also suppose the TIE Fighter has PS3 or better.

• With no upgrade action at all, the X-wing does an average of 0.67 damage per attack.
• Using Expose, it does 1.06 damage, and takes a penalty to Agility.
• With a focus token, it does 1.22 damage.
• With Predator and a focus token, it does 1.59 damage.
• Using Push the Limit to get target lock and focus does 1.70 damage, and it gains a stress token.
• Activating Opportunist with focus does 1.91 damage, and it gains a stress token.

Expose is not a good upgrade, because in this kind of situation you pay 4 points and lose a point of Agility in order to do less damage than focus. Predator gives you a nice bump to your damage good upgrade; it's cheaper than Opportunist, and unlike Opportunist and Push the Limit, it doesn't result in stress. Opportunist is the best buff of all, but it's situational.

[EDIT: Also worth pointing out that with no action, Predator results in 0.99 average damage--not as much as an action, but far better than no modification at all (and almost as good as Expose).]

***

TL;DR: Predator is not a crap EPT.

I don't agree with your math because I have not rolled dice with the averages you are showing. In my case I roll really good for defense but most the time I get blanks on a full attack. Not that I don't appericate your work...

It strikes me as highly likely that Predator was made with the upcoming Rebel Transport in mind. Because the Rebel Transport is going to come with this... Alternatives needed to be made in order to keep Imperial ships -which have to this point been relying on PTL far too much- from falling out of the sky one by one.

I don't think it's just the Transport (or Slicer Tools), or just the Interceptor. It's clear from a lot of other spoiled cards (Hobbie, Porkins, R3-A2, Flechette Torpedoes) that inflicting and managing stress will be a bigger part of the game from now on, and I think that's both an interesting direction for the game to expand and a reaction to PTL being abused all over the place, on all kinds of ships.

(Even Ion Pulse Missiles can be seen in the same light, because IMO being stressed and ionized is even worse than being doubly stressed.)

But I completely agree that it's really nice to see, with Predator and Outmaneuver, some upgrades that deliver some (but not all) of the functionality of PTL without stress.

Yeah, Slicer Tools isn't as major detriment as one might think. Once we get the point total of Epic games, I think we can determine how effective the 1 damage to up to 3 ships, if they are stressed, will be. And if you are really, really worried about it, start packing Wingman. It is amazing how many gloss over how the Black Squadron Pilot is the most effect Wingman.

My point is, stress is going to become more important to manage in the future. Which means we can't just blindly slap PTL on things anymore. Predator is a good, stressless alternative for an offensive boost without sacrificing manoeuvrability.

Shall we add Predator and Outmaneuver to the "Not many good combos for dual EPT" discussion?

I hope the A-Wing uses Predator because its a crap EPT. If you want rerolls use a targeting computer. Even better just use expose or oppurtunist you get a +1 attack die.

Getting a reroll that don't need you to use an action, even if it's just one dice, is very good, especially when there is no constraint whatsoever like get one stress token, your opponent need to have no evade or focus token, need to shoot from out of sight... it will be useful every time you attack and free you up an action that you don't need to spend on target lock. With 2 dice, odds are you'll do just fine by rerolling 1 dice per attack. I prefer to attack with 2-3 dice combine with 1 reroll+focus than 2-3 dice with rerolls.

Yes but I will have 4-5 for defensive dice so that odds of a ship with two attack and a reroll hitting that ship are not that good.

That's a problem for all the 2 attack dice ship, not because of predator. Not every ship you shoot at have 4-5 dice in defense. Not everybody like to play buffed up interceptors, just look at all the tournament reports and you'll see that a lot of people use B-Wing, X-Wing, YT-1300, Tie Fighters; defense ranging from 1 to 3. Using just one case, the occasional 4 agility ship, to discriminate an EPT won't lead you far.

But I don't know the meta of your group, maybe everybody just play full tuned-up interceptor. In that case, just don't use 2 attack dice ship, period. Expose need you to use your action and reduce your defense, which have already been discussed as a bad trade-off and EPT, especially since you also pay a premium price for it. Opportunist needs you to shoot at an opponent that doesn't have a focus or evade token and get you stress. Not a bad EPT, I like to use it, but it's still situational.

Also, if you always roll badly with red dice like you claim, maybe you should think about getting some re-roll instead of just rolling more dice. That might help with your problem. And predator is exactly there for you and free you of your action to take a focus to modify those dice. Isn't life wonderful?

Once epic play rolls around Ten Numb is gonna be an Advanced Sensors, Predator, HCL genius. (In mah dreams)

You don't agree with his completely unarguable, staistically correct math? He's giving you averages. You can't deny that over the course of time this will be what your dice roll. Not logically or validly.

I have a friend like that who don't care about statistics. He just prefer to roll more dice and don't care about the odds. Sometimes he win and he's proud of himself, he overplayed me and was the best; sometimes he lose and what happens? He blame the dice. Luck is part of the game, some people just don't care about mitigating it and prefer to play it. You can't really argue with them. Sometime it pays off, sometime it don't. But if you control it, you'll win more often than not.

Some prefer higher potential damage over more consistent damage.

Some prefer higher potential damage over more consistent damage.

I prefer both, but when I can't afford it I will always go with consistency. If I can whittle away at you long enough, by the time you've hit that max damage potential roll I will have nibbled you to death.

Some prefer higher potential damage over more consistent damage.

Exactly what I mean by sometime it pays off, sometime it doesn't. In some game, you'll roll 3-4 hits every roll or 2-3 evade, in others you'll roll blank. It's alright, it's part of the game. Just don't blame bad luck if you lose, it was your choice to rely more on it.

But if you want to plan ahead and test a squad in the long run, you need to rely more on the consistency of getting 2 hits than getting that lucky 4 hits roll at the right moment. Sure, sometimes it will also fail you, but in the long run it will pay off.

My point is, stress is going to become more important to manage in the future. Which means we can't just blindly slap PTL on things anymore. Predator is a good, stressless alternative for an offensive boost without sacrificing manoeuvrability.

Interceptors are probably the best at shedding stress because of all their green turns. They are also probably the only ship that demands PTL because of their innate ability to barrel roll and boost.

Nothing has changed. If you are putting PTL on something else, its cute but its hardly optimal.

Nothing has changed. If you are putting PTL on something else, its cute but its hardly optimal.

Flat out false. Wedge, PTL and an R2 astromech is murder. Keyan Farlander with PTL will be downright scary. Tycho is made for PTL with his pilot ability.

An X-wing with Push the Limit isn't bad, no. But, you get more versatility out of Push the Limit when you put it on a ship with 4 actions, like the A-wing and Interceptor.

I literally can't believe that at this point there is an argument being made that Predator is crap and Expose is amazing.

I'm going to run a squad featuring this as my centerpiece:

Jan Ors, with Expose, Saboteur, and a Blaster Turret, along with a Targeting Computer.

WATCH OUT IMPERIALS!

My point is, stress is going to become more important to manage in the future. Which means we can't just blindly slap PTL on things anymore. Predator is a good, stressless alternative for an offensive boost without sacrificing manoeuvrability.

Interceptors are probably the best at shedding stress because of all their green turns. They are also probably the only ship that demands PTL because of their innate ability to barrel roll and boost.

Nothing has changed. If you are putting PTL on something else, its cute but its hardly optimal.

Yes and no. Yes, Interceptors are the best fighters at shedding stress... if you can afford to keep that stress for a full turn. The current game allows for this just fine, but if you look at cards like Wingman or Hobbie you notice something interesting, there are more cards coming out that let your shed stress without having to wait for the next turn. Combine this with the Rebel Transport's Slicer Tools and we begin to see why. FFG is upping the risk of keeping stress on your fighters for a full turn. Sure, you could still field an Interceptor with PTL. But you better keep **** sure you don't stick within range of that transport. Because your stressed out TIE with a mere 3 hull isn't going to last long.

Right now the transport is the only craft with a dangerous stress targeter, but there's a good chance this might spread a little further than that. And at that point, choosing between PTL or Predator is going to be a bit harder.

Nothing has changed. If you are putting PTL on something else, its cute but its hardly optimal.

Flat out false. Wedge, PTL and an R2 astromech is murder. Keyan Farlander with PTL will be downright scary. Tycho is made for PTL with his pilot ability.

... Why do you need PTL on wedge? You can target lock anyway and target lock + focus, while nice is overkill. Opportunist on both Wedge and Keyan is arguably better. The only one that holds water is Tycho but he is on the lower end of competitiveness anyway.