So, this was supposed to be a PM for ak-73, but apparently the messaging system is down, or he can for some other reason not receive private messages right now. Rather than forgetting about it and canning an already finished text, I'll just post it publicly.

Maybe someone else finds it interesting, though I am fairly certain that my opinion will not be very popular - in which case I'd ask the relevant parties to simply "agree to disagree", as I am both unable as well as unwilling to debate personal preferences with a dozen people simultaneously throwing points at me. Let's just keep in mind that, in 40k, all of our interpretations are equally correct .

With that out of the way ... here are my thoughts on a question posed by ak-73 in regards to the possible raison d'être of the Space Marines IF they were NOT as Epic as they are sometimes made out to be (an almost heretical notion held by yours truly):

-----

As you probably know I follow a more "grounded" vision of the setting, one that I have formed primarly by reading GW's Codex and WD fluff, as well as looking at the rulesets of their tabletop game and their own d100 game. More than that, however (as the source material is ambiguous enough to allow multiple interpretations), it is also a personal preference of just not finding anything interesting in over-exaggerated heroics of seemingly immortal gods of war who beat down a thousand foes every day on their own, and instead following the old writers' rule of a character's weaknesses being more important than their strengths.

There is nothing wrong with mighty heroes, but for me to be interesting, their battles must feel like a struggle, not a walk in the park. Unfortunately, the licensed fiction in 40k all too often seems to prefer the latter, which, I assume, is why this kind of novel is nowadays badmouthed as "bolter porn". In contrast, I am looking to some Space Marine story snippets from GW themselves, which seem much more interesting because they contain snippets of drama created by a sense of loss and despair that seems impossible if you lift up Space Marines beyond a level where they too are still "only mortal". The death of Captain Tycho, the massacre of the Celestial Lions, the Battle of Naeuysk Gorge, even the fate of Rogal Dorn himself. These are the stories that drive my inspiration. For true heroism requires sacrifice. At least for me.

I've never found anything special in Superman stopping a train if it's not a threat to him; under these circumstances, he'd just be a jerk if he did not do it.

Furthermore, I also feel a need for an internally consistent setting, where the different parts need to fit to each other and make some sort of sense, subjectively speaking. In case of the Space Marines, their battle prowess would have to be capped by the Imperium intentionally limiting their capabilities as a result of the Horus Heresy, so to me it would not seem logical if the Astartes were that much of a threat in spite of these limitations in place. And let's not forget that, at least in GW's own material, there are other branches of the Imperium's armed forces, mere "Mortals", who have hunting down rogue Space Marines as a part of their mission. This also ties into my belief of the weapons in 40k being a sort of "equalizer" between the many different species. It doesn't matter that a Tyranid has an uberthick carapace and can move at ridiculously fast speed, he can still get cut down by a random ex-farmer Guardsman with his lasrifle. He doesn't stand as much of a chance, but in the community there is a saying that if you throw enough Guardsmen at a problem, it'll eventually go away.

As to why the Imperium should still bother with Marines? Because even without being immortal gods of war, they are an incredibly power- and useful asset that can, at times, decide the outcome of a campaign, in the same way an entire Imperial Guard battle group can. The Space Marines are quite vulnerable and can be killed "even" by lasgun blasts, but they are still the most powerful combination of resilience and firepower on a single square meter the Imperium can muster. Their mobility in deployment and re-deployment is of critical importance to the otherwise lumbering steamroller of the Imperial Guard, to say nothing of their effect on troop morale. You don't need to turn them into Hercules or Superman to give them a reason to exist (you still can , but that's simply a matter of personal preferences, not necessity).

Another poster once described the Space Marines' role in the Imperium as being primarily that of a "force multiplier", and I am inclined to agree. Space Marines alone don't win wars. But they can help win battles that win wars. If you need a fortification breached, if you need an enemy commander taken out, if you really need that one bridge taken and held until reinforcements arrive, the Space Marines are the best Jacks-of-all-Trades you could wish for. Sure, there are specialists who could do many of these jobs with more precision, but they'd require more time to arrive and set up, and they would not be nearly as adaptable to changing circumstances as the Adeptus Astartes are. There's a reason for why every single Astartes serves as a vehicle driver and support gunner, regardless of the role they eventually end up in.

And that is why the Imperium bothers with forces such as Space Marines, Battle Sisters or Storm Troopers that, with their ridiculously small numbers, seem insignificant in the grand galactic scope. Because they fill very useful niches. And, of course, because of tradition. The Imperium is quite goodat gimping itself because of tradition, and this, too, is an important element of the atmosphere.

Cheers!

-----

(apologies for abusing this forum as a replacement for PMs )

Another poster once described the Space Marines' role in the Imperium as being primarily that of a "force multiplier", and I am inclined to agree. Space Marines alone don't win wars. But they can help win battles that win wars. If you need a fortification breached, if you need an enemy commander taken out, if you really need that one bridge taken and held until reinforcements arrive, the Space Marines are the best Jacks-of-all-Trades you could wish for.

But here's where it breaks down. In a conflict on the scale common in 40K, a small group of mortal men, even of specialists, does not make that difference. The funny thing is that you go on to describe how there is better specialist forces. But even such more specialist forces could not impact the flow of battle significantly. WW2 was a giant attrition war from a Soviet perspective. For a group of 100 men could to impact the outcome of such a war... that is a superhuman feat. (Discounting that a lone sniper could have put the 3rd Reich or the Soviet Union in great disarray; the fighting would have likely continued though.) A company of Lynata Space Marines would not have lived very long in WW2. A chapter of Lynata Space Marines wouldn't have prevented D-Day. Jesus, I even question the impact of Alex' Space Marines on a conflict of that magnitude.

Having simple air superiority would be more valuable.

Alex

. A company of "Lynata Space Marines" has the power to make that impact, and it has the mobility to go where they are needed most. Their deployment speed and ability to largely pick their own battles, to their own conditions, is stressed time and time again in the original source material.

Yeah but in a WW2 conflict, there is so many of those places where they are needed the most.

You don't have to be superhuman to make a difference in a war. If that were true, no army in the world would bother with special forces. Not that I actually deny that the Astartes are superhuman, mind you - but we seem to disagree on what this term actually means in regards to exact combat ability. To draw on your comparison, the Space Marines are akin to the Commandos and SAS that took part in D-Day, just (obviously) pimped up by the setting's inherent technology advantage, including genetic engineering. They are the future Seal Team Six, taking down Warboss Osama.

Yeah but in a big enough scale, a few special forces don't do that much damage. Especially if you have other special forces to take on the job. Also this is slightly misleading. Take a look at the average TT battle involving marines. That is not quite like taking down Osama.

Let me be put it this way: if Hitler would have had access to 1000 modern day Spec Ops with modern day weapons and personal armour, this would not have affected the outcome of the war. Even if they also had a couple Abrams and Leopard tanks.

Imagine an enemy army 10.000 troops strong, and a company of 100 Space Marines opposing them. Fighting the entire enemy formation head on would be suicide (even barring elements such as artillery or armoured formations), but if you have this Marine company focus on a single spot, being in combat with no more than, say, 500 of the enemy, then they can punch through their line of defence and do whatever they came to do. Is this really not good enough already?

Gaining local fire superiority is a given. However to answer your question, it depends entirely on the casualty rate among the 500 Space Marines. If they lose 50% of the man doing the job, they can't impact a big war. They just have taken one fortification of which there are countless. Most likely, the enemy has only withdrawn to a fall-back position and can strike back after reenforcements arrive.

Which brings me to my point: 1 million just-a-bit-better-than-mortal-Spec-Ops is meh. It raises the question of - why bother? Why do they have their own branch in the Imperium? They get drowned out out by the masses of Guardsmen and have little use.

(That said a campaign in which Astartes are merely useless relics that mostly serve propaganda purposes only sounds quite intriguing to explore. )

Alex

Yeah but in a WW2 conflict, there is so many of those places where they are needed the most.

Only in the same sense that the Commandos and SAS (etc) were also "needed the most" at so many different places simultaneously. This is simply a matter of strategic decisions: allocating your resources to where they are of most use. You wouldn't have wasted a unit of Commandos to capture a random German village, much like you wouldn't send the Space Marines to suppress a minor uprising. At least not until sh*t hits the fan and a supposedly minor conflict blows up in someone's face.

Yeah but in a big enough scale, a few special forces don't do that much damage. Especially if you have other special forces to take on the job. Also this is slightly misleading. Take a look at the average TT battle involving marines. That is not quite like taking down Osama.

Let me be put it this way: if Hitler would have had access to 1000 modern day Spec Ops with modern day weapons and personal armour, this would not have affected the outcome of the war. Even if they also had a couple Abrams and Leopard tanks.

A few special forces can do tremendous damage if they manage to blow up or hold a bridge long enough, or destroy an important power plant, or establish a beachhead for the bigger army, or kill an enemy commander, or breach an enemy fortification. To reiterate from the official source I have quoted earlier: "lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities". That is what the creators of the setting envisioned the Marines to do, and that is how they wrote up their abilities and limitations.

And if Hitler would have also had access to 1.000 suits of powered armour, and genetically enhanced super-soldiers who would continue fighting even in the face of lost limbs, I daresay the war would have been dragged out quite a bit, as some important battles such as Stalingrad could have been influenced by the presence of these guys.

Would he have won? Doubtful. But who is saying that the Imperium of Man is winning? To me it looks as if the Space Marines too only slow down the IoM's decay, but are unable to stop it. Because at this ratio, the actual battle prowess of these warriors becomes less important than their numbers, regardless of whether we'd be talking about WW2 of 40k. Look at the German Tiger tank, for example, and compare it to the Sherman.

Also, "the average TT battle involving Marines" can totally be as important as taking down Osama. Of course I don't know what sort of narrative you are used to, but whenever I read about Space Marines deploying for war, it tends to be for something that's worth their presence. Usually the fate of an entire world. Because, again, the Space Marines win by mobility, and are often the first to be able to respond.

Not saying that there wouldn't still be battles that are comparatively unimportant, of course, either because the Space Marines act fairly independent and may just decide to intervene because they just happened to be in the area, basing their decision on "honour" and personal vows, or because something that seems ridiculous to us is a matter of grave importance to someone used to the the 40k way of life. For example, according to White Dwarf issue #269, in the Battle of Naeuysk Gorge the Imperial Fists had a casualty rate of 85% in their strike force just because they tried to recover a bunch of stuck Rhinos. Because technology is important, yo!

Gaining local fire superiority is a given. However to answer your question, it depends entirely on the casualty rate among the 500 Space Marines. If they lose 50% of the man doing the job, they can't impact a big war. They just have taken one fortification of which there are countless. Most likely, the enemy has only withdrawn to a fall-back position and can strike back after reenforcements arrive.

You don't deploy Space Marines for every single fortification, though, but for the important ones. The ones that would take a Guard regiment multiple weeks of constant artillery bombardment to sunder. The ones that have arsenals of devastating missiles capable of severely damaging the Imperial war effort. The ones where the enemy leader has sought refuge.

In essence, there's two types of missions where sending Space Marines makes sense:

- the ones where they are able to fight on their own conditions

- the ones where they are simply the best troops on hand to take on a dangerous but critically important task

The former would incur few casualties and usually help achieve a long term goal by small steps. The latter are quite simply worth the sacrifice and usually aim at a short term goal where the Marines are the only ones in range who could pull it off. Because sacrifice is part of Grimdark, too.

Which brings me to my point: 1 million just-a-bit-better-than-mortal-Spec-Ops is meh. It raises the question of - why bother? Why do they have their own branch in the Imperium? They get drowned out out by the masses of Guardsmen and have little use.

Because even "just a bit better" can often make the difference. Again: why do modern armies bother with special forces training and equipment if this were not true? The difference you miss is that those masses of Guardsmen take much more time to amass and deploy, giving an enemy more time to prepare defenses and drag out a conflict by months, potentially costing hundreds of thousands of lives in a war that could have been cut short months ago with a fraction of the casualties. Or, in the case of an invasion, simply risk that any help arrives too late, specifically in regards to Eldar raids or a Tyranid invasion, or a Chaos warband trying some nefarious ritual, or xenos raiding human archaeotech. The list goes on.

And that's before we consider that the Imperium does a whole lot of things simply because it's a matter of tradition. The Space Marines could be more useful if they had not been forced into the Codex Astartes (at the same time, the CA is what kept the peace between humanity and the Astartes for 10.000 years). This way, however, they are a remnant of the bygone age of the Great Crusade, the successors to what once was the spearhead of human Imperial expansionism, who had their jobs taken away by the Imperial Guard and relegated to an auxiliary role (but one where they still shine).

Sure, the Imperium could have tried to dismantle the Adeptus Astartes entirely. But this would have possibly caused another civil war, and this way the Space Marines are still of some use whilst no longer being a threat to the IoM itself. The transformation into their current form simply being the most convenient solution is a fairly important reason for their continued existence already. But as I said before, they can have a big impact on individual battles, and if said battle is strategically important, it may well turn the tide of a war. I'm sure the Marine Codex would offer sufficient examples of important interventions that were made of the stuff that legends are born from.

Well, you should add that a planet might be too hard to defeat for a chapter because their Space Marines forces are too spread out usually. Against the might of a whole chapter, merely 1000 fighting men, the defenses of a whole planet are not sufficient (Inquisitorial report on page 3 of Codex SM 3E, supported by page 5 of Codex SM 5E). How do 1000 Lynata Marines crush planet Earth? Killing Obama and Putin won't be enough.

The thing is: Spec Ops can only decide a narrow battle. Spec Ops couldn't have saved Hitler in 1944. The Space Marines of GW however can do more than tip the scales. A single chapter can wage whole wars and will usually win.

Sure, the Imperium could have tried to dismantle the Adeptus Astartes entirely. But this would have possibly caused another civil war, and this way the Space Marines are still of some use whilst no longer being a threat to the IoM itself. The transformation into their current form simply being the most convenient solution is a fairly important reason for their continued existence already. But as I said before, they can have a big impact on individual battles, and if said battle is strategically important, it may well turn the tide of a war. I'm sure the Marine Codex would offer sufficient examples of important interventions that were made of the stuff that legends are born from.

Interestingly enough, I just read in the Index Astartes that the Adeptus Terra never bothered to enforce the Codex Astartes and that it is doubtful that it could if it wanted to.

Which brings me back to the question of Marines' epicness: demi-gods of war or merely **** good special forces?

Alex

Well, you should add that a planet might be too hard to defeat for a chapter because their Space Marines forces are too spread out usually. Against the might of a whole chapter, merely 1000 fighting men, the defenses of a whole planet are not sufficient (Inquisitorial report on page 3 of Codex SM 3E, supported by page 5 of Codex SM 5E).

That is not my text, it has been written by the guys at Games Workshop - so if you want to have something added or removed, I am the wrong person to talk to. Either way, the quotes I provided clearly make no references to Chapters, it establishes limitations for Space Marines in general.

A contradiction with the sources you have mentioned can be avoided only by admitting that "it depends", for neither the individual incident in the 3E Codex nor the general foreword in the 5E Codex attempt to tell us that an entire Chapter is capable of conquering any hostile world - they merely tell us that it can happen. Which is exactly the same as the quote from GW's Inquisitor game says, only from the other side.

40k is a setting where the range of a planet's tech-level can range from "cyberfied laser-duelists in kilometer-high metal spires" to "barbarians living in caves". I do not doubt that, on many worlds, resistance might simply be impossible, because powered armour alone makes for a fairly good protection against most weapons. Perhaps this is why the Space Marines are not the only force that can, as per Codex fluff, conquer entire star systems? (see p.7 3E C:WH)

Assuming, of course, that neither the fluff in Codex Space Marines nor Codex Witch Hunters is simply exaggerated propaganda, as suggested by Marc Gascogne... which I am willing to do for the sake of this discussion.

But, ask yourself why the Imperium felt a need to, say, summon so many Space Marine Chapters to the world of Armageddon just to repulse a single Ork Waaagh. You make it sound as if one Chapter would have sufficed?

The thing is: Spec Ops can only decide a narrow battle. Spec Ops couldn't have saved Hitler in 1944. The Space Marines of GW however can do more than tip the scales. A single chapter can wage whole wars and will usually win.

A thousand "Spec Ops" with power armour and boltguns might have been able to do just that. They could have struck at the enemy front and caused chaos and confusion as they broke through with a thrust aimed right at the Soviet frontline leadership, possibly triggering the collapse of an entire army due to a broken chain of command and poor morale. This is what I see the Space Marines doing.

Sure they can win wars on their own. Really small ones that only take a week or so to finish, like the intervention you referenced from the 3E 'dex. For everything else, the quote from the IG Codex applies.

How do 1000 Lynata Marines crush planet Earth? Killing Obama and Putin won't be enough.

Orbital bombardment.

How would 1.000 ak-73 Marines crush planet Earth? Walk around and kill every human being they meet, or even try to police every single city and town on the planet? As I mentioned before, this is where it doesn't even matter how strong they are, because it becomes impossible for them simply due to shortage in numbers, and thus a lack of presence. Look to Iraq and Afghanistan for a practical example.

The incident from the 3E Codex you referenced would be a good example, actually. The Marines landed, destroyed whatever defense forces were locally on hand to oppose them, and then proceeded to kill the governor before boarding their ships and leaving again. Because staying on-site would have been useless. To actually pacify a region, you need way more boots on the ground.

Interestingly enough, I just read in the Index Astartes that the Adeptus Terra never bothered to enforce the Codex Astartes and that it is doubtful that it could if it wanted to.

Not in its entirety. The geneseed tithe is 100% enforced, though the other aspects are more of a grey area where the High Lords and the Inquisition decide on a case-to-case basis, incorporating the suspect Chapter's history and value for the Imperium.

The Index Astartes was an excellent series of articles. It also talked a bit about Battle Sisters hunting down rogue Marine Chapters, which doesn't seem very likely under the interpretation you seem to propose.

Which brings me back to the question of Marines' epicness: demi-gods of war or merely **** good special forces?

Well, to me the answer is clearly the latter. The former just carries too much "weight" in terms of invulnerability and alleged coolness ... which, nowadays, I only perceive as mary-sue'ism - for me, there is such a thing as "too epic", and it is when something stops making sense in context with the setting, and/or feels "too unreal" whilst trying to look serious.

This is my personal bias, though, and I know that many would disagree. I can only reiterate that, to me, heroism without risk and sacrifice is meaningless, at least when it comes to crafting a good story.

Um. I apologize in advance- I'm sure this is butting in. That said- I tend to agree with Lynata, mostly. Here's my opinion, take it or leave it, but- like Lynata- I won't argue the matter.

My opinion: a full Codex chapter can 'take' a planet. To use Earth as an example, Thunderhawks are used to neutralize naval forces and antiair weapons, stormravens (that's what they're called, right?) are used to maintain local area superiority. The Astartes begin isolating opposition and crushing forces piecemeal, but maintain sufficient thunderhawk lift capacity available that if someone launches a nuke, they just leave the target area after the launch is detected. The Astartes could, bit by bit, infiltrate and neutralize every military installation they could detect. Places like Cheyenne mountain and NORAD might be issues, but they have lance batteries for that.

However, that chapter could not 'hold' the planet. They could not enforce Imperial law. They could not establish a global government or pacify every population center. For that, they would require the Imperial Guard.

You two keep talking about WW2 and using special forces as the example there. Strategically speaking, I don't think the Astartes are equivalent to WW2-era special forces. I think they equate more to WW2 era Blitzkrieg formations, or the forces most used for modern day shock-and-awe tactics; you pick a target zone (say, a planet), you flatten it, and then you wait for the conventional forces to come and hold it.

However, while this does make the Astartes extraordinary, it doesn't make them Superman. They take losses, they suffer casualties and defeats. They do the jobs that even stormtrooper regiments can't do, because someone has to.

Each squad of Astartes may cost as much as a destroyer or a mechanized regiment, so you might think the money would be better spent there. I think you'd be wrong, because a destroyer has no precision and no way to take and hold a specific localtion on-world and wait for reinforcements. It has no way to dig in to the hillsides of a planet and hide, or to live off the land. And that regiment can't be deployed against a Dark Eldar raiding party and expect to be able to engage it- the raiders will just flee if they are so outnumbers. The squad of marines, however, has the right mix of subtlety, skill, firepower and durability to do the job.

Fleet, Guard and the Marines. They each have their role.

This has been fascinating, but I'll leave the debate to Ak-73 and Lynata. I hope this provided some food for thought without being too rambling.

Well, you should add that a planet might be too hard to defeat for a chapter because their Space Marines forces are too spread out usually. Against the might of a whole chapter, merely 1000 fighting men, the defenses of a whole planet are not sufficient (Inquisitorial report on page 3 of Codex SM 3E, supported by page 5 of Codex SM 5E). How do 1000 Lynata Marines crush planet Earth? Killing Obama and Putin won't be enough.

No, but it CAN turn the point of a war. The ministry of ungentlemanly warfare were pivotal in sabotaging one of the Nazi's hard water plants, which set back their atomic weapons program long enough that they were not available to use nuclear weapons against the allies. The British commandos have numerous raids where they destroyed crucial artillery positions or power plants, which in turn meant far fewer casualties for forces in other locations. One of the main reasons for the Africa war during WW2 was to sever Germany's access to fuel for their armoured divisions, which in turn led to Germany attempting to seize oil from Russia with operation Barbarossa (which failed spectacularly and could be seen as THE major turning point of WW2).

Wars are often won by logistics, not climactic battles (although they do exist, look at the battle of Kursk). Special forces are instrumental in the denial of key strategic resources and locations, also intelligence (the capture of the Enigma device by British Commando's from a German submarine). These things DO win wars, and its precisely these rolls that the Space Marines would be the best troops to deploy into. Its also their main strength. A space marine as a fighting unit is able to go days without sleep, able to eat plant life that would be lethal to a regular human, can automatically adjust the melanin in their skin so they don't suffer fatigue from harsh environments. When deployed in force they are genetically engineered to not be effected by most of the logistical problems faced by regular troopers which is a huge boon during a protracted operation.

Regardling the fluff stating that the defences of a whole planet would not be sufficient to stop 1,000 space marines. The fluff is often dubious on this point. For every example you can give where a planet can't stop a space marine chapter, there are numerous where it was more than sufficient to defend against a single chapter.

Okay, I feel this debate could use some structure.

A. My assertion is that Space Marines need to be epic to justify the attention and status they get.

B. I question whether that would be deserved if Astartes were merely good special forces.

C. To that end, I claim that, excluding such things as Doomsday device scenarios like a Nazi A bomb in 1944, special forces do not turn a lost war around completely, if anything they tip the scales in a narrow battle (or reduce your casualties / shorten the war, if you're already winning).

D. I claim that in the fluff Astartes can do more than mortal special forces, even good special forces.

E. I claim in particular that they can do such without incurring the horrendous casualty rates among their own than mortal special forces would incur.

Now each of these points can be called into question. I am not convinced by the counter-argument presented here so far though.

I would like to focus first on C and D.

Regarding C: The historic examples put forth here don't really contradict my point C. Yes, Space Marines might have turned things around for Hitler (though copious amounts of heavy artillery and suicide bombers might have attrited them down in personal combat). But many Imperial planets are more advanced than Germany 1944. Including the one on page 3 in CSM 3E, it seems to me.

But let's just say the marines joined Hitler in 1944 - if they can turn around the war, this goes beyond the actions of normal Spec Ops, this would involve actual warfare, destroying 100s of tanks. It's actually an argument in my favour. Normal, "good Spec Ops" wouldn't be able to do such a thing, not even with today's means. They would need to work in close concert with an army and would incur high casualties themselves.

Regarding D: Kethra had a Governor, high-ranking military and 2 orbital defense platforms with 15,000 men on them. So let's just not assume that it's not a feral world, okay? The White Panthers withstood a full frontal assault of the Kethran military for days... and took them apart. Sorry, this is by no way, the hit-and-run tactics of special forces. Doing this on one's own is more like an Elite superhuman division. The report says that they left Kethra open for alien attack after having dismantled the military. Yeah, I submit this as evidence against Lynata Marines.

Alex

A space marine as a fighting unit is able to go days without sleep, able to eat plant life that would be lethal to a regular human, can automatically adjust the melanin in their skin so they don't suffer fatigue from harsh environments. When deployed in force they are genetically engineered to not be effected by most of the logistical problems faced by regular troopers which is a huge boon during a protracted operation.

How so? Look at today's special forces and the attention and status they get in public perception, the "Marine Corps legend" if you will, especially as portrayed in various movies. Now transplant this into a setting where there's no free press and all you know of these guys is the result of thousands of years of state propaganda and fairytales about "Angels of Death" passed on in hushed whispers.

40k has always operated by taking real world stuff and cranking it up to eleven.

You could attach the same question to the Sisters of Battle or the 10k-strong Storm Trooper regiment. Or Inquisitors (after all, they are just really good cops, amirite?). Things being as they are more because of tradition and politics rather than out of sense is a large part of what makes the Imperium of Man the Imperium of Man.

In a way, this too is "the real world cranked up to eleven".

D. I claim that in the fluff Astartes can do more than mortal special forces, even good special forces.

E. I claim in particular that they can do such without incurring the horrendous casualty rates among their own than mortal special forces would incur.

I don't think anyone here disagreed with this assumption. The point of contention is that I'm saying "Space Marines are special forces +1" (or perhaps rather a +2), whilst you seem to argue they are "+10".

That they are better than anyone else is something I already established in the opening post ("[...] still the most powerful combination of resilience and firepower on a single square meter the Imperium can muster"), but this did not seem to be sufficient for you - you need them to be even better. To be the literal gods of war some licensed material makes them to be.

Including the one on page 3 in CSM 3E, it seems to me.

We don't really know much about that world's military, though. As Cail said, for every fluff occurrence that has a Marine strike force crush a planet, there's one where an invasion is thwarted. How about the one from Codex Planetstrike that has a Chaos Marine Lord being strangled to death by a certain Imperial Guard Colonel? Even though the latter is "only mortal".

Once you expand your attention beyond a chosen army's own Codex, you're bound to find a lot of stuff that is critical in "putting things into perspective", specifically because an army Codex almost always contains only "the good stuff" - the heroic battles (or individual fortunate incidents) that are the stuff of legend. To get a good impression, it's important to look at both sides of the coin.

The 2E Marine Codex had the most extensive fluff description about the protective qualities in any GW publication to date, and it said that it "lowers the chance of injury by between 50-85%" for small arms fire. That doesn't look like much anymore if you're facing upwards of ten times your number in hostiles, as even the remaining 15% (pretty close to the chance of lasgun fire to drop Marines on the tabletop, or injure a Marine in GW's d100 Inquisitor game) get more likely to be triggered with every shot taken at you.

Which is why mobility is so important to the Space Marines. They win their battles and keep casualties low not by waltzing through their opposition head-on, they do so by picking a weak spot and THEN waltzing through.

Regarding D: Kethra had a Governor, high-ranking military and 2 orbital defense platforms with 15,000 men on them. So let's just not assume that it's not a feral world, okay?

That doesn't really tell us much about what the Planetary Defense Forces attempted to kill the Marines with. Did they have artillery? Air support? Las weapons or stubbers? An Astartes cruiser in low orbit alone would be enough to seriously disrupt large armies moving on the ground, "softening them up" before they can even close in on the Marines. Not to mention the morale issue.

I also notice you didn't address the bit about the Third War of Armageddon, where arguably the Space Marines did not fare as well as ak-73 Marines should.

[edit] Thanks for the structuring, though - I agree things are easier to discuss this way.

Sorry for potentially disrupting the discussion but I couldn't really let this stand in all parts.

And I might say that I pretty much agree with ak-73 in his views of the Space Marines. I strongly favor the idea of them as Gods of War rather than just some additional guys.

No, but it CAN turn the point of a war.

It, can but very, very, very seldom does.

The ministry of ungentlemanly warfare were pivotal in sabotaging one of the Nazi's hard water plants, which set back their atomic weapons program long enough that they were not available to use nuclear weapons against the allies.

The Nazis were to my knowledge never close to getting an atomic bomb, and even if they got one they not be able to produce enough of them or deploy them close to effectively enough to have a chance at all of doing more than kill some additional thousand allies troops. At worst they would just prolonge the war until the allies used their nuclear weapons to make Germany a radioactive crater.

The British commandos have numerous raids where they destroyed crucial artillery positions or power plants, which in turn meant far fewer casualties for forces in other locations. One of the main reasons for the Africa war during WW2 was to sever Germany's access to fuel for their armoured divisions, which in turn led to Germany attempting to seize oil from Russia with operation Barbarossa (which failed spectacularly and could be seen as THE major turning point of WW2).

I agree that they did a strike for the Allies however you give them a decisive importance that isn't true to my knowledge. The reason for Germany's involvement in Africa was to my knowledge to prevent Italy from getting knocked out from the war and allow the Allies to attack through southern Europe, as they also did.

Operation Barbarossa has little to nothing to do with a failure in Africa and everything to do with being a main foundation for National Socialism in the idea of subjugating lesser races for a colonial "Aryan" empire in eastern Europe, as well as striking against Sovjet when the circumstances where optional for Germany; before the Red Army would recover from the purges, before it got more dangerous stuff and before Germany's collapsing economy would run out of loot to pay for the Wehrmacht.

Wars are often won by logistics, not climactic battles (although they do exist, look at the battle of Kursk). Special forces are instrumental in the denial of key strategic resources and locations, also intelligence (the capture of the Enigma device by British Commando's from a German submarine).

Wars are often won by logistics, not climactic battles (although they do exist, look at the battle of Kursk). Special forces are instrumental in the denial of key strategic resources and locations, also intelligence (the capture of the Enigma device by British Commando's from a German submarine).

I agree that Kursk decided that the war would end sooner rather than later although neither Kurks nor the capture of the Enigma was close to deciding the war, it just hastened a determined course. If it had gone the other ways around it would just have lengthened the war somewhat, not turned it to Germany's favor.

Wars are often won by logistics, not climactic battles (although they do exist, look at the battle of Kursk). Special forces are instrumental in the denial of key strategic resources and locations, also intelligence (the capture of the Enigma device by British Commando's from a German submarine).

I agree entirely. Logistics, manpower, technological advances and industrial power decide which side wins the war. The problem with the Enigma is that even without it, Germany would still lose the Battle of the Atlantic due to overwhelming Allies escorts of the merchant ships and their overwhelming industrial output. The knowledge of the Enigma just made it go faster.

These things DO win wars, and its precisely these rolls that the Space Marines would be the best troops to deploy into. Its also their main strength. A space marine as a fighting unit is able to go days without sleep, able to eat plant life that would be lethal to a regular human, can automatically adjust the melanin in their skin so they don't suffer fatigue from harsh environments. When deployed in force they are genetically engineered to not be effected by most of the logistical problems faced by regular troopers which is a huge boon during a protracted operation.

I disagree. They don't win wars, they either hasten an outcome or they serve to hold it up for some time.

Some fair points. I want to stick to D for the moment.

To attack a whole planet on one's own, removing the leadership and dismantling the military (which by implication was good enough to deal with xenos threats before the vinvasion but not afterwards)... this goes beyond special forces. Clearly. You cannot reduce Space Marines to SAS/Delta Six only. They very clearly also get used quite a bit as Hitler's 1. Panzerdivision Leibstandarte or generally the Waffen-SS... as elite conventional (armoured) forces moved to the support local forces at the Schwerpunkt. There are differences, of course, regarding numbers and equipment, etc. But Astartes see lots of frontline duty, at the brunt of battle, not just covert operations. Astartes break sieges through direct frontal assault. That is likewise not how you employ special forces normally. Jump-packed Astartes can function similar to parachute troopers.

I guess what I am trying to say is that special forces (SAS+1) narrows is a bit too much down. Astartes have mastered every kind of warfare more or less, at least they are much more universally useful than SAS+1. I don't think they are SAS+10 but you know... maybe SAS+3, WaffenSS+3, Marines+3, Air Force+3, Parachute troopers+3, etc. (Plus survivability of +5 but that's item E.)

Which brings me to Armageddon III and fluff in other codices. Fair points. Although the story of how the Blood Angels smashed the Orks at Tartarus (Armageddon II) really goes beyond SAS+1, no? They didn't pick the weak point, they jumped right into the heart of them, "horrendously outnumbered". That's also what C:SM 5 ED says on page 5: "To them fall the most arduous and dangerous of duties: crippling strikes at the very heart of the enemy, the daring seizure of heavily fortified positions and nigh-hopeless battles against an infinitely outnumbering foe." Let's be clear: this is not mere SAS. This is more Waffen-SS. The Astartes can wage full-blown wars without support from the Imperial Army or Navy. Unlike SAS.

As for the Chaos Lord... well, mortal heroes are special of course.

Because of all of the above I maintain:
"D. I claim that in the fluff Astartes can do more than mortal special forces, even good special forces."

On what level do you see Astartes merely as special forces? The fluff goes clearly beyond that unless you have a very expanded definition of special forces.

Alex

A space marine as a fighting unit is able to go days without sleep, able to eat plant life that would be lethal to a regular human, can automatically adjust the melanin in their skin so they don't suffer fatigue from harsh environments. When deployed in force they are genetically engineered to not be effected by most of the logistical problems faced by regular troopers which is a huge boon during a protracted operation.

Oh yeah! On a sidenote: I always found that those little perks seemed seriously underappreciated by most people! Whenever someone talks about Space Marines, 99% of the time you hear about how they'd crush their enemies' heads with a single hand or be super-tough. Whilst this is somewhat understandable (fighting = cool), I think that all those minor bonus effects are just as, if not even more important. Especially the ability to fight for days without rest or immunity to most poisons! These abilities may not be as obvious as transhuman strength or resilience, but they can be just as much of an edge that allows them to come out on top when fighting most enemies.

It's the same for their equipment. Power armour cannot even reliably stop lasgun fire, but the Astartes version is kitted out with a ton of bonus features of a nature similar to the minor perks they receive from their implants, ranging from automatically triggered drug dispensers to improvised nourishment.

It is once again a matter of focus in perception, but when it comes to their operations, Space Marines can be so much more than just a simple "+STR/BOD/DMG because Epic". I suppose this may be part of why I tend to give a little less attention to these more obvious advantages, or rather prefer a grittier/more grounded version.

This precisely my point. Trying to look at them as the 'Gods of War' trope that is so often ascribed to them really takes away all the things that makes them cool. To be clear they absolutely ARE more than human, but its in ways that manifest more subtle than 'I can kill a tank with my face if the Emperor demands it!".

To look at the list compared to a normal human:

They can fight continuously for days when a normal human needs to rest for 6 hours a day or becomes less than 100% combat effective.

They are practically immune to most poisons, thanks to the third kidney.

They can breathe underwater, making them perfect for amphibious assaults and sabotage missions.

They can ingest food stuffs that would kill a normal human. A regular infantryman needs a constant supply line of food and water. (The power armour incorporates a water recycler).

Their haemoglobin acts an an accelerated rate. Their blood also clots faster, meaning that an injured soldier can return to combat in a matter of hours with even basic medical care. A regular soldier wounded in combat might be out of the field for weeks or even months. They are also much harder to fatally injure due to their auxiliary heart and solid-piece ribcage. In the event one is seriously injured he can enter a voluntary coma to be revived at a later time, minimising troop loses.

Their bodies naturally adapt to cold/hot weather environments. No need for winter clothing or specialised equipment to protect from sunstroke, meaning that can be deployed in any combat zone with almost zero logistical preparation and do not need to worry about things like the particularly long and brutal winters that have been Russia's main line of defence for centuries.

They are able to gain memories from their enemies (such as troop movements or battle plans) by eating a portion of their brain. Regular soldiers would need to capture officers and decipher encrypted messages to gain this kind of tactical advantage. This also has the knock-on effect that any commander who knows they have this ability must limit the intelligence given to his own side, lest the loss of one officer reveals everything to his enemy.

Their eyes act as natural binoculars.

If the idea of a soldier with all those abilities doesn't make you see how units composed of such soldiers could the tide of most conflicts when deployed with even a modicum of strategic planning (I.E, don't just run them at a gun line) then I really can't help you. Needing them to be god-like figures that kill mountains with a strong slap just seems kind of... well to be honest, sad. I read all that and think "wow, that's amazing!" I genuinely don't see how making them into walking colossi does anything but make them bland. Its a matter of opinion

and Gurkhal, don't worry about disrupting the thread. That post made my brain hurt (tip: any argument you have to preface with 'to my knowledge' 3 times implies you might need to fact check) so I'm ignoring it in favour of going back to talking about Catholic Space Nazi super soldiers XD

and Gurkhal, don't worry about disrupting the thread. That post made my brain hurt (tip: any argument you have to preface with 'to my knowledge' 3 times implies you might need to fact check) so I'm ignoring it in favour of going back to talking about Catholic Space Nazi super soldiers XD

Well, its more like that I need to check what I've writen so I don't repeat myself. And I don't want to come off as an pompous jerk, like that. Humility is a virtue.

and Gurkhal, don't worry about disrupting the thread. That post made my brain hurt (tip: any argument you have to preface with 'to my knowledge' 3 times implies you might need to fact check) so I'm ignoring it in favour of going back to talking about Catholic Space Nazi super soldiers XD

If you think that southern front made Hitler go for Soviet oil via Operation Barbarossa, you need to read up on the basics of WW2 and the 3rd Reich.

Alex

Ok, I'll admit I shouldn't have phrased it that way, so please accept my apology. I also didn't mean to imply that the oil fields were the sole reason for Barbarrossa, however the need for supply was crucial, and was lack of it was a major part of their defeat. I do think there's an irony to the person who interjected because they 'couldn't let (something I said) stand' talking about humility, but whatever, my addendum was unwarranted.

Back on topic, I still think that by making Space Marines into something so much larger than life, it ignores so much of what makes then awesome even on more subdued scale. I don't think its hard to see how even a modern infantry unit with the advantages the Space Marine gene implants give to them would have a huge advantage in modern combat. For some of us this depiction fits better with what we enjoy, to others it doesn't. Really there's no 'right' answer, and neither one has to be mutually exclusive to the other. We're all talking about something we love, and it shouldn't turn into an argument. Again, I'm sorry for my part in moving it in that direction.


Also Alex

It's staying pretty civil so far, to my relief. I half-expected half the forum to come down hard on me.

On what level do you see Astartes merely as special forces? The fluff goes clearly beyond that unless you have a very expanded definition of special forces.

I guess that remark about my definition may be true. The definition on wikipedia actually would agree with it, but tbh I'd trust a dictionary over a wiki. The official description was "elite shock troops", which I think suits them nicely. I'm not exactly sure how we got focused on special forces myself; I suppose all the talk about WW2 must have led me astray.

Not that this has much to do with the question at hand - their martial power and (in)vulnerability, perks that are independent of how the Astartes are used.

Oh, and that planet's PDF was not necessarily good enough to deal with an alien invasion. The Inquisitor simply remarked that the Space Marines crushed what defenses were on hand, leaving the planet defenseless. They may have been ill equipped to deal with any intrusion anyways for all we know.

This is a matter of selective perception, or confirmation bias. Although on some level I'm sure we all have that, given that we're talking about our preferred interpretations here.

Also, apparently, that entire world also had only a single armoury (which was subsequently blown up)?

And as to the size of the wars the Space Marines can fight by themselves - again, it depends on what opposition they face. The Guard Codex and the fluff from the Space Marines in the Inquisitor game are clear on that. I suppose the lines between "intervention" and "war" are quite blurred, though.

As for the Chaos Lord... well, mortal heroes are special of course.

About as special as Hero Chapters?

Since you've been referencing the 3E Codex ... what do you think about that story bit about the Space Marines assaulting some random farm occupied by a bunch of Orks who used it to park their artillery pieces - or, specifically, the casualties they suffer? It portrays a level of vulnerability very close to what I have in mind.

(and it tells us a few interesting bits about the decay in armour reliability)

They can breathe underwater, making them perfect for amphibious assaults and sabotage missions.

Though this actually seems to be something only present in the FFG version of Space Marines. Looking at GW's Index Astartes, there's a line about the Raptors Chapter:

"The atmosphere of the planet was so heavily saturated with moisture that human lungs, even the hyper efficient multi-lungs of a Space Marine, were unable to extract enough oxygen from the air."

Arguably, actual water ought to be even more "saturated with moisture" than the most humid air.

Needing them to be god-like figures that kill mountains with a strong slap just seems kind of... well to be honest, sad. I read all that and think "wow, that's amazing!" I genuinely don't see how making them into walking colossi does anything but make them bland. Its a matter of opinion

Took the words right out of my mouth!

That, and it feels internally inconsistent with the rest of the setting.

It's staying pretty civil so far, to my relief. I half-expected half the forum to come down hard on me.

On what level do you see Astartes merely as special forces? The fluff goes clearly beyond that unless you have a very expanded definition of special forces.

I guess that remark about my definition may be true. The definition on wikipedia actually would agree with it, but tbh I'd trust a dictionary over a wiki. The official description was "elite shock troops", which I think suits them nicely. I'm not exactly sure how we got focused on special forces myself; I suppose all the talk about WW2 must have led me astray.

Well, you mentioned SAS, Delta Force, etc. I don't believe their task is in routing the enemy in frontline combat. The Adeptus Astartes have more battlefield roles than those mortal special forces. The Delta Force didn't spearhead into Bagdad during the invasion - but that would have been a classical Space Marine task:

'On 5 April, Task Force 1–64 Armor of the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division executed a raid, later called the "Thunder Run", to test remaining Iraqi defenses, with 29 tanks and 14 Bradley armored fighting vehicles advancing to the Baghdad airport . They met heavy resistance, but were successful in reaching the airport. U.S. troops faced heavy fighting in the airport, and were even temporarily pushed out, but eventually secured the airport.'

So, my first goal here is to establish that Space Marines do more than just clandestine operations. [in particular, the Adeptus Astartes have not been created for the recon ops that special forces often do - they don't disguise themselves to infiltrate behind enemy lines (that's an OW campaign I would play, btw).] They are an elite fighting force that a) normally doesn't take long to acomplish its goals normally, b) goes only for high value targets or fights at the Schwerpunkt and c) does not stay for prolonged battles unless it is really, really important because they are needed everywhere.

And as to the size of the wars the Space Marines can fight by themselves - again, it depends on what opposition they face. The Guard Codex and the fluff from the Space Marines in the Inquisitor game are clear on that. I suppose the lines between "intervention" and "war" are quite blurred, though.

I think you are reading a bit too much into it. Here's what I make of this quote:

"Often a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe."

Space Marines can't accomplish certain missions. Even if they'd come and could dismantle the US military, kill Obama, etc. the US wouldn't stop being a democracy or believing in democracy. And this goes back to an earlier point I made: I doubt that even Alex Marines could subjugate Earth, at least not for long. The trick in fighting Astartes is using lots of high explosives - laying traps or using copious amounts of heavy artillery/cruise missiles, firing onto one's own positions if necessary. That way they could be attrited down. The incredibly low numbers are their weak point. Heck, even anti-tank rifle snipers could pose a risk. The whole idea of 1,000 elite soldiers subjugating a whole planet seems to be retarded. What would be more realistic is again the tipping of balances. If there was a 60% versus 40% anti-imperial sentiment on a planet, the Astartes could "restore some faith". They would need to work with local forces to provide intelligence anyway. But even then Lynata Marines seem too weak for the job.

So what the above quote means to me is that Astartes are not made for attrition war; that's also why they don't stay. Their numbers can be whittled down. If I consider Final Sanction... if the kill-team had to face such fighting for weeks and month, yeah, there would be eventually more casualties among their own than they could bear.

So., in short, I don't see the contradiction to Alex Marines here yet. The Imperial Guard has certainly a duty that the Space Marines can't fulfill in my 40K.

About as special as Hero Chapters?

Since you've been referencing the 3E Codex ... what do you think about that story bit about the Space Marines assaulting some random farm occupied by a bunch of Orks who used it to park their artillery pieces - or, specifically, the casualties they suffer? It portrays a level of vulnerability very close to what I have in mind.

(and it tells us a few interesting bits about the decay in armour reliability)

Hey, I am a Crimson Fists player. Why do you keep asking me about the damage that Orks can do to marines? That's like adding insult to injury!

Where do you see the difference in SM vulnerability in that text versus Deathwatch RPG? The Ork Shootas were more or less plinking off, the Ork Big Guns did high damage. Also, they seem to be fighting an Ork horde - Deathwatch-style!

Though this actually seems to be something only present in the FFG version of Space Marines. Looking at GW's Index Astartes, there's a line about the Raptors Chapter:

"The atmosphere of the planet was so heavily saturated with moisture that human lungs, even the hyper efficient multi-lungs of a Space Marine, were unable to extract enough oxygen from the air."

Arguably, actual water ought to be even more "saturated with moisture" than the most humid air.

Right. Astartes can't actually breathe underwater. They can only hold their breathe for like half an nour or so.

Needing them to be god-like figures that kill mountains with a strong slap just seems kind of... well to be honest, sad. I read all that and think "wow, that's amazing!" I genuinely don't see how making them into walking colossi does anything but make them bland. Its a matter of opinion

Took the words right out of my mouth!

That, and it feels internally inconsistent with the rest of the setting.

And here's where I totally disagree -on every level.

20 years ago, we were playing Twilight 2000 2E. That was a modern day Spec Ops RPG. Counter-strike before there was Counter-Strike. What I like about Deathwatch is that it is not like that at all. Deathwatch is about exploring what superhuman soldiers could do in war. Exploring what Special Forces can do, even particularly good Spec Forces, is an old hat.

In fact, running them as good special forces seems to be bland and generic to me. Consider instead my Blood Angel Librarian Vincian. He is an angelic figure , walking in the footsteps of his Primarch. He strives for perfection in all he does, he is soft-spoken, at times even kind and a mighty warrior at that. He's flying over the field of battle with force sword and storm shield in hand, often surrounded by etheral lightning of the Psy Discharge Psychic Phenomenon - as if on a mediaeval painting. However, he is doomed to succumb to the Red Thirst and, eventually, the Black Rage. For me it is this high contrast of what he could be and what he is doomed to become quite fascinating.

Yeah, Space Marines need to be powerful enough to be considered Angels of Death. In my mind, there is no doubt to that.

And it feels totally consistent with the setting too - in which the Emperor is the god of Mankind, the Primarchs are his arch-angels and the Adeptus Astartes are his Angels of Death. The Imperium itself is a project of the Emperor, the Primarchs and the Space Marines. They carved it out of the galaxy together. Which is why in my world, the leading Astartes actually still consider the Imperium theirs (in absence of the father) - they just leave running the Imperium for the most part to the mortals and focus on keeping the whole thing together.

Alex

I suspect what we have here is a failure to use similar definitions, resulting in a failure to communicate.

You think that BA Bookie Vince is epic because he flies around? Yeah, I can understand that. Is he laying waste to his foes with psychic lightning? Sure. Does he bear ancient artefacts, holy armaments of his chapter (or the Deathwatch)? Check that box.

Were I running the game though (which I'm not) and you made a habit of doing this (which you may or may not), there would inevitably come a time when you attracted a huge amount of fire from prepared positions. And then you would be a dead epic champion.

I wouldn't argue that the Astartes aren't all amazing, because they are (although I might quibble on the whole archangel bit, but it would just be quibbling). My opinion (and I think Lynata and Cail would agree) is that the Astartes are just tools in the Imperium's problem-solving toolbox. There are some things that you hit with waves of troops (Siege of Vraks, for example), there are some things you hit with a battlefleet, and there are some things you hit with elite-squared shock troops- and to be clear, in this case I am defining shock troops as 'infantry forces and supporting units intended to take and/or hold vital positions and other objectives quickly and efficiently, typically in highly adverse situations and often as the first wave of a greater offensive and generally possessing excellent tactical mobility and flexibility.'

Does Vincian fit that? I think so. Would a squad of Kasrkin stormtroopers fit the same definition? Yeah, but I'd expect the Deathwatch Librarian to be able to do it better. However, in no part of my definition did I include the phrases 'always successfully' or 'without losses.' Remember that another established part of the fluff is that very, very few Astartes live to their equivalent to an old age, and they all die a violent death.

So yeah, when I think Astartes, my first thoughts are of the Black Templar and how so many of them died at Helsreach, or of the doomed, but tenacious, defense of Certus Minor by the Excoriators, or how the Iron Hands have very few suits of Terminator Armour because they still haven't recovered from the Drop Site Massacre. I think of the betrayal of Blood Ravens Librarian Isidor Akios, and the good-intentioned perseverance of the tainted and renegade Soul Drinkers. All of these examples are, in many ways, larger than life, sure, but they aren't stereotypical movie-marines. They suffer, and bleed and lose. They get spread thin, or pursue an objective and suffer from bad intel (speaking of things that happen to specops), or just get outmatched when they have to stop a ritual or a greater daemon or the Tyranids. They don't shrug off Tau railgun rounds, and more Dark Angels die from overheated plasma weapons than they care to admit.

So if your emphasis is on their superhuman nature without ignoring their vulnerability, then I think we've all been arguing around each other. If your emphasis is on Superman in powered armour, well... then I I'm willing to agree to disagree.

edit: overheated, not overloaded. bah.

So, my first goal here is to establish that Space Marines do more than just clandestine operations. [in particular, the Adeptus Astartes have not been created for the recon ops that special forces often do - they don't disguise themselves to infiltrate behind enemy lines (that's an OW campaign I would play, btw).] They are an elite fighting force that a) normally doesn't take long to acomplish its goals normally, b) goes only for high value targets or fights at the Schwerpunkt and c) does not stay for prolonged battles unless it is really, really important because they are needed everywhere.

Oh, I don't think you would have to establish that. I'm sure every participant in this thread has read a lot about the battles fought by the Space Marines, given that they make up about 80% of 40k fluff.

As I have already said in the previous post, this miscommunication seems to have been the result of an attempt at historical comparisons.

That being said, the Space Marines of M41 are somewhat different from the Space Marines created for the Great Crusade - including not only a notable change in application, but also a significant decay of technological knowledge and a spread of mystification that messes with the purity of their geneseed and battlefield efficiency.

"The processes involved are incredibly ancient. Procedures are handed down from generation to generation, becoming increasingly ritualised and misinterpreted. For these reasons, the efficiency of each organ differs from Chapter to Chapter, depending on the condition of that Chapter's gene-seeds and the degree of debasement of its surgical procedures. In some Chapters, mutation of gene-seed, poor surgical procedure, or inadequate post-operative conditioning, has twisted the functioning of implants. For example, the omophagea gene-seed of the Blood Drinkers has mutated so that all Blood Drinkers have an unnatural craving for blood. In other Chapters individual organs are either useless or absent altogether."

- White Dwarf Index Astartes : Rites of Initiation

Furthermore, GW background has stated that the Space Marines' lack of enthusiasm for prolonged battles stems not - or at least not only - from them being needed elsewhere (especially considering how some Chapters seem to prefer isolation over involvement), but quite simply because they are not geared for that type of warfare. From the White Dwarf articles about the Third War of Armageddon:

"As the first phase of the campaign drew to a close and the Season of Fire approached, a ceasefire of sorts was achieved, with both sides digging in to weather the coming storms. Many Space Marine Chapters withdrew, as their lightning attack style of warfare was of less relevance in this new stage of the war. First to withdraw were the Relictors, who, with no explanation whatsoever, emerged from the jungle, boarded their Thunderhawk gunships and simply left. Imperial Navy picket ships in orbit challenged them, and a violent confrontation between supposed allies was only narrowly averted when Commander Dante ordered the picket ships to stand down and allow the Relictors' ships to rendezvous with their fleet."

"Lynata Space Marines" win their battles by being clever about when and where to pick them, striking at the foe where he is weak and where the enemy cannot confront the Astartes with the full brunt of his army. That is why they are so dependent on high mobility, even where their armoured vehicles and what passes for artillery are concerned. And this is also how you are supposed to play Space Marines in the Epic 40k TT, else you're gonna get tabled by numerically superior foes.

I think you are reading a bit too much into it. Here's what I make of this quote:

"Often a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe."

Space Marines can't accomplish certain missions. Even if they'd come and could dismantle the US military, kill Obama, etc. the US wouldn't stop being a democracy or believing in democracy. And this goes back to an earlier point I made: I doubt that even Alex Marines could subjugate Earth, at least not for long.

And I'd say you are reading too little into it.

"The enemy is too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched" means that military resistance cannot be broken. This has nothing to do with post-invasion policing, riot suppression, or re-education of locals. This is about getting the foot in the door. And I for one think the quote is quite clear about the Astartes having their limits there when it says that "the really huge invasions" can only be won by the Imperial Guard.

What would be more realistic is again the tipping of balances. If there was a 60% versus 40% anti-imperial sentiment on a planet, the Astartes could "restore some faith". They would need to work with local forces to provide intelligence anyway. But even then Lynata Marines seem too weak for the job.

What makes you think that?

The difference seems to be that my take on the Marines forces them to use tactics and smart deployment, rather than just steamrolling any opposition because of godmode. The end result might be the same, but I find my way of getting there more appealing, as far as my preferences for storytelling are concerned.

Right. Astartes can't actually breathe underwater. They can only hold their breathe for like half an nour or so.

Hmm. If they are not moving, I could actually believe that. They have a metabolism running on overdrive (so much so that, in GW's background, they require regular drug infusions to keep it from collapsing), but I could see them being able to slow it down long enough to allow the air reservoir in those three lungs to last for quite a while.

And here's where I totally disagree -on every level.

20 years ago, we were playing Twilight 2000 2E. That was a modern day Spec Ops RPG. Counter-strike before there was Counter-Strike. What I like about Deathwatch is that it is not like that at all. Deathwatch is about exploring what superhuman soldiers could do in war. Exploring what Special Forces can do, even particularly good Spec Forces, is an old hat.

In fact, running them as good special forces seems to be bland and generic to me. Consider instead my Blood Angel Librarian Vincian. He is an angelic figure , walking in the footsteps of his Primarch. He strives for perfection in all he does, he is soft-spoken, at times even kind and a mighty warrior at that. He's flying over the field of battle with force sword and storm shield in hand, often surrounded by etheral lightning of the Psy Discharge Psychic Phenomenon - as if on a mediaeval painting. However, he is doomed to succumb to the Red Thirst and, eventually, the Black Rage. For me it is this high contrast of what he could be and what he is doomed to become quite fascinating.

Yeah, Space Marines need to be powerful enough to be considered Angels of Death. In my mind, there is no doubt to that.

This is where I can't quite follow you, for two reasons:

1: In 40k, it is very easy to be epic almost regardless of the class you play. This is a result of the setting, it's atmosphere/style, and the insane weaponry and other equipment you can kit yourself out with.

Or, in short: Your Space Marine can crush someone's head with their bare hand? That's cool. Here is a "puny mortal" with a power sword, capable of cleaving that Marine in two with a single swipe. This is the idée fixe in my head - that it's the technology, as antiquated and decayed as it may be, that is truly the most destructive force in the galaxy. In comparison, being a Space Marine "merely" gives the owner of a plasma weapon and powered armour a bonus to survival, whilst still in no way guaranteeing it. This premise further serves to drive home the point that "life is cheap".

2: Most of what you said actually comes down to background and culture (and the effects of technology as mentioned above), rather than actual combat prowess. You don't need to be that "walking colossus" Cail mentioned, possibly using Deathwatch RPG Squad Modes to nullify lascannon headshots, in order to deliver an interesting and characterful impression. In fact, I firmly believe that this would only hamper it. Again, nobody said that Space Marines aren't awesome, but I firmly object making them so awesome that they are larger than life in anything but legend and propaganda, for I think this just makes them look like cheap comic book heroes.

Wanna know the one Space Marine story that truly stuck in my mind? The Death of Captain Tycho. Because sacrifice makes every story so much more intense.

My appreciation for the Blood Angels rose significantly after reading it.

I wouldn't argue that the Astartes aren't all amazing, because they are (although I might quibble on the whole archangel bit, but it would just be quibbling). My opinion (and I think Lynata and Cail would agree) is that the Astartes are just tools in the Imperium's problem-solving toolbox.

Whereas in my 40K, the rest of the IoM is just tools in the Astartes' toolbox.

Other than that, it seems to me that you did not quite understand where I was getting at. Here's a simple lesson for you: seek the hero in the common man and seek the tragedy in the hero.

Oh, I don't think you would have to establish that. I'm sure every participant in this thread has read a lot about the battles fought by the Space Marines, given that they make up about 80% of 40k fluff.

As I have already said in the previous post, this miscommunication seems to have been the result of an attempt at historical comparisons.

Good. Because I am still trying to find out the difference between Lynata Marines and Alex Marines (which are more or less DW Marines). If it is not their ability to do tasks that the SAS couldn't do, it must be in the magnitude of what they can achieve and at what price. So I'll try to shift the debate towards that issue.

"As the first phase of the campaign drew to a close and the Season of Fire approached, a ceasefire of sorts was achieved, with both sides digging in to weather the coming storms. Many Space Marine Chapters withdrew, as their lightning attack style of warfare was of less relevance in this new stage of the war. First to withdraw were the Relictors, who, with no explanation whatsoever, emerged from the jungle, boarded their Thunderhawk gunships and simply left. Imperial Navy picket ships in orbit challenged them, and a violent confrontation between supposed allies was only narrowly averted when Commander Dante ordered the picket ships to stand down and allow the Relictors' ships to rendezvous with their fleet."

Yes, yes. Marines prefer Blitzkrieg warfare. And while they can be employed to try to end an attrition war through such methods, they are not geared towards an attrition campaign when Blitzkrieg tactics fail. If I read it correctly, the Season of Fire meant that even Marines in PA could operate outside for short periods of time only.

I am not exactly sure where the dispute here is. I don't dispute that there are challenges which the Space Marines can't win without support. In particular, (even single-system) battles against Chaos Space Marines (+ Traitor Guard), Eldar, Necrons, etc. Let us not forget this: the background serves as backdrop for the TT game and every army needs to be able to defeat any other. Also, I am not disputing that the Adeptus Astartes are not particularly suited for the conditions as in the above quote.

However, I fail to see how any of that clashes with DW Marines aka Alex Marines.

What makes you think that?

Remember that in a conflict of millions, the Astartes have one incredible weakness: their small numbers. An enemy would only have to focus on wearing them down, if necessary through suicide missions. In all honesty, I think Alex/DW Marines could be whittled down too easily.

Hmm. If they are not moving, I could actually believe that. They have a metabolism running on overdrive (so much so that, in GW's background, they require regular drug infusions to keep it from collapsing), but I could see them being able to slow it down long enough to allow the air reservoir in those three lungs to last for quite a while.

It's in that Iron Snakes novel. Iirc, one of the Marines was diving for more than 20 minutes, though he was pushing his limits.

This is where I can't quite follow you, for two reasons:

1: In 40k, it is very easy to be epic almost regardless of the class you play. This is a result of the setting, it's atmosphere/style, and the insane weaponry and other equipment you can kit yourself out with.

Or, in short: Your Space Marine can crush someone's head with their bare hand? That's cool. Here is a "puny mortal" with a power sword, capable of cleaving that Marine in two with a single swipe. This is the idée fixe in my head - that it's the technology, as antiquated and decayed as it may be, that is truly the most destructive force in the galaxy. In comparison, being a Space Marine "merely" gives the owner of a plasma weapon and powered armour a bonus to survival, whilst still in no way guaranteeing it. This premise further serves to drive home the point that "life is cheap".

2: Most of what you said actually comes down to background and culture (and the effects of technology as mentioned above), rather than actual combat prowess. You don't need to be that "walking colossus" Cail mentioned, possibly using Deathwatch RPG Squad Modes to nullify lascannon headshots, in order to deliver an interesting and characterful impression. In fact, I firmly believe that this would only hamper it. Again, nobody said that Space Marines aren't awesome, but I firmly object making them so awesome that they are larger than life in anything but legend and propaganda, for I think this just makes them look like cheap comic book heroes.

Wanna know the one Space Marine story that truly stuck in my mind? The Death of Captain Tycho. Because sacrifice makes every story so much more intense.

My appreciation for the Blood Angels rose significantly after reading it.

1. I fail to see the contradiction to DW/Alex Marines again - with the one caveat that I don't think technology itself is enough as an equalizer. If that Power Sword was in the hand of a DH/RT/BC/OW PC - sure, why not? If the power sword was in the hand of a no-name mortal NPC, then he'd need Initiative and lots of luck to win. Ideally a PA on top of the power sword.

I guess what I am getting is that a non-name mortal with a Power Sword is still A1 S3 vs. T4. (And in DW, that T4 is Unnatural T4.)

2. Once again I totally agree with it hampering an interesting story. In fact, it allows for Aristotlean tragedy. See above what I said above heroes and mortals. DW/Alex Marines sit at a quite fascinating point between normal human heroes and comic book superheroes. They clearly outshine humans and are more than mere mortals but they are not superheroes/gods either. They are Angels of Death that can be killed and do get killed.

It's exactly this heroic larger-than-life status that potentially makes for fascinating story-telling - once tragedy is induced (see Blood Angels, Dark Angels or even the Crimson Fists).

Here a fake "quote" I came up with in 2010:

"When a young Imperial Agent succumbs to the Ruinous Powers, it's a crime.

When a Rogue Trader of the Emperor does, it's a loss.

Yet when one of our own falls, that's a tragedy ."

--- High Chaplain Marqol Tomasi of the Crimson Fists Chapter

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/38173-the-tragedy-of-heroes-space-marines-and-temptation/?view=findpost&p=383797

Okay, finally.... you're alluding to Soak Fire here. Yeah, that Squad Mode ability is an eyebrow raiser, particularly its Improvement. There are others like Dig In.. stuff which is flat out too gamey and not simulationist enough. I guess they ran out of good ideas for more realistic abiltities. Also, I will join your criticism insofar as DW doesn't scale well in my mind. When Space Marines hit the upper ranks in DW, they become a bit too good. But to me that's just some imperfections of the game. In my view, FFG has hit the general Astartes power level spot on for Rank 1 marines. Including Unnatural S/Tx2, which you're no fan of.

In conclusio, I would like to request that you specify your problems with the general power level of Rank 1 DW Marines beyond the gamey quirks of the certain abilities.

Alex

"Multi-lung. Space Marines have three lungs and can close their normal lungs in favour of the bio-engineered multi-lung.The multi-lung allows the Marine to breathe poisonous atmospheres or even water." - Codex Imperialis, Page 18

I think its more likely that the author of the Iron Snakes novel was wrong, than a core book written by the original game designer who invented the Astartes.

He wasn't wrong, your quote was merely a retcon from original fluff. Or an addition if you will. The original fluff can be found, for example, in the RT Compendium. DW, otoh, is a bit self-contradictory in that it says that you can breathe water but still have to take suffocation tests (by implication).

Alex

Actually, I made that quote to illustrate a point. Space Marines have been depicted as having many different abilities that operate in many different ways, as such they don't have a 'platonic form' if you will. There is fluff to support both arguments.

Actually the original fluff for this is from white dwarf 98, not the RT compendium. There are people in other threads arguing that nothing from RT can be considered canon, and that we should only take things from Codex Imperialis onwards. There really is no 'right answer' here.

If you want to talk canon (which personally I don't believe exists, but IF you do) then work from the original author trumps a side project from another author, or a third party with publishing rights. That should be pretty clear cut.